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Scientists: New GMO wheat may 'silence' vital human genes
Digital Journal ^ | 10-09-2012 | Elliott Freeman

Posted on 11/03/2012 6:26:28 AM PDT by Renfield

Australian scientists are expressing grave concerns over a new type of genetically engineered wheat that may cause major health problems for people that consume it.

University of Canterbury Professor Jack Heinemann announced the results of his genetic research into the wheat, a type developed by Australia's Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO), at a press conference last month.

"What we found is that the molecules created in this wheat, intended to silence wheat genes, can match human genes, and through ingestion, these molecules can enter human beings and potentially silence our genes," Heinemann stated. "The findings are absolutely assured. There is no doubt that these matches exist."

Flinders University Professor Judy Carman and Safe Food Foundation Director Scott Kinnear concurred with Heinemann's analysis.

"If this silences the same gene in us that it silences in the wheat -- well, children who are born with this enzyme not working tend to die by the age of about five," Carman said.

Digital Journal contacted Heniemann and Kinnear for more information on their research and future actions they may take regarding this issue.

"To date we have not heard from CSIRO, nor are we aware that CSIRO has released any safety studies into the GM wheat," Kinnear said in an email response. "We are in the final stages of drafting a formal letter to CSIRO which will be requesting further information and asking for them to undertake the studies that are recommended in our reports."

According to the researchers, extended testing should be performed before the wheat is put on store shelves. "We firmly believe that long term chronic toxicological feeding studies are required in addition to the detailed requests made by Heinemann for the DNA sequences used," Kinnear stated.

"The industry routinely does feeding studies anyway, so it should not be too much more difficult to do long term (lifetime) studies and include inhalation studies," Heinemann added. "These should be tuned to the way people would be exposed to the product."

The researchers also cautioned consumers against eating the wheat if it is approved prematurely. "I would advise citizens to request that these tests be done and the evidence meet with their standards of scientific rigour if in the end it is approved for use," said Heinemann.

If the concerns surrounding CSIRO's GM wheat are not resolved, the issue could end up in court, according to Kinnear: "If CSIRO was to consider moving towards human feeding trials without conducting these studies, we would be looking at what legal avenues are available to stop them."


TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: food; genetics; gmo; gmos; gmowheat; gmwheat; healt; health; nwo; wheat
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Related articles:

http://naturalsociety.com/gm-wheat-permanently-alter-human-genome/

http://gizadeathstar.com/2012/11/more-evidence-frankenfoods-for-the-new-frankenstein/

1 posted on 11/03/2012 6:26:36 AM PDT by Renfield
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To: Renfield

By what mechanisms?

Human stomachs contain hydrochloric acid, plus this wheat is processed and cooked before ingestion.How does the wheat gene survive the processing, the cooking and the stomach acid? After that miracle, how does the wheat gene influence human genes at the cellular level?


2 posted on 11/03/2012 6:32:28 AM PDT by reformedliberal
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To: Renfield
"What we found is that the molecules created in this wheat, intended to silence wheat genes, can match human genes, and through ingestion, these molecules can enter human beings and potentially silence our genes," Heinemann stated. "The findings are absolutely assured. There is no doubt that these matches exist."

Do not eat GMO foods. I eliminated all corn and soy from my diet. Don't buy processed foods. Eat natural.

Food companies and the FDA are conducting a huge experiment on Americans. I choose not to participate.

3 posted on 11/03/2012 6:41:01 AM PDT by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: reformedliberal

Don’t confuse the issue with actual facts or science...


4 posted on 11/03/2012 6:45:21 AM PDT by Kozak (The means of defence again.t foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home JM)
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To: reformedliberal
How does the wheat gene survive the processing, the cooking and the stomach acid?

Without being too graphic, check your stool after eating a couple ears of corn. You will see whole kernels that survived intact.

5 posted on 11/03/2012 6:47:48 AM PDT by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: reformedliberal

There is no mechanism.
These so called scientists are today’s Luddites.
DDT bad
GM food bad
Hydrocarbons bad

No matter the innovation if it helps people, or people enjoy it, it’s bad.

How many years now have they been telling us that coffee is bad for us? Thousands of studies later there are only benefits.


6 posted on 11/03/2012 6:53:53 AM PDT by Politically Correct (A member of the rabble in good standing)
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To: FatherofFive

Corn is not wheat. However, like the wheat, it is not eaten raw and must also pass thru the stomach.

You are seeing a cellulose shell on the corn after the (cooked/processed) corn kernel has passed thru the GI tract and what can be digested has been. That corn is also likely GMO and that still does not answer the question:”By what mechanism does the digested portion of the cooked and processed corn (wheat) affect human gene function?”

Cow patties also contain the remains of corn that were not digested. Cows still survive on it. So do chickens.

Examining one’s stool says nothing about plant genes affecting human genes with regard to the plant’s processing into food and further processing within the body.


7 posted on 11/03/2012 7:04:08 AM PDT by reformedliberal
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To: FatherofFive

I’m with you.

I can’t eat any wheat products anyway, as it causes massive indigestion. Corn and soy have been eliminated from my diet for several years. Basmati rice (from India) and potato - that’s the only starchy carbohydrates I will eat.

This wheat gives new meaning to the expression, ‘Frankenfood’.


8 posted on 11/03/2012 7:09:59 AM PDT by SatinDoll (NATURAL BORN CITZEN: BORN IN THE USA OF CITIZEN PARENTS.)
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To: Kozak; Politically Correct

Yeah, I know, I know.

I just wish basic biology, anatomy and physiology were taught routinely to everyone. Real critical thinking is extinct.

I am not a science professional. This technology called the Internet allows anyone at all discover the facts, the science and often this information is written at a 9th grade level and therefore accessible. If not, a 2nd window open to a medical dictionary or physiology site will clear things up for the non-professional.

But, no! It is easier to feed one’s ignorance and paranoia by swallowing undigested pap from someone’s agenda.

However, I am old and I was taught logic. That is another discipline that could be returned to the curriculum.


9 posted on 11/03/2012 7:11:41 AM PDT by reformedliberal
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To: reformedliberal
Examining one’s stool says nothing about plant genes...

No, but it does say quite a bit about the individual, especially if they continue to play with it or throw it.

10 posted on 11/03/2012 7:14:00 AM PDT by ROCKLOBSTER (Celebrate "Republicans Freed the Slaves" Month)
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To: Renfield

Hair on fire alert!! When you hear the term GMO everyone jump up, wave their hands in the air and run around the room screaming, “We’re all gonna die by age five!!!”.


11 posted on 11/03/2012 7:21:00 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Renfield

Maybe the wheat was designed to get rid of millions of pesky humans. What kind of wheat does George Soros and Bill Gates consume?


12 posted on 11/03/2012 7:27:49 AM PDT by dljordan (Voltaire: "To find out who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.")
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To: FatherofFive
Good grief, you choose not to participate? Sorry to be the one to break it to you, but everything you eat has been genetically modified in some way over time. Doesn't matter if it comes from selective breeding or from a guy in a lab coat with a gene splicing gun. Humans have been consuming genetically modified food for a long time, and we are living longer, healthier lives today than at any other time in history.

You may now return to freaking out.

13 posted on 11/03/2012 7:41:59 AM PDT by Mase (Save me from the people who would save me from myself!)
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To: reformedliberal
By what mechanisms?....

Cleaning your butt with corn cobs.

14 posted on 11/03/2012 7:42:13 AM PDT by spokeshave (The only people better off today than 4 years ago are the Prisoners at Guantanamo.)
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To: reformedliberal
This technology called the Internet allows anyone at all discover the facts, the science and often this information is written at a 9th grade level and therefore accessible.

Exactly. That's how I learned about global warming and what I can do to save the planet.
15 posted on 11/03/2012 7:44:30 AM PDT by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: Renfield; All

The more you ready and study this GMO foods issue, the more evil it sounds. Why mess with God’s natural production?

Of course, the Big Government, Business Socialist, and Free Trade Globalist crowd loves GMO food....because they can eliminate the competition. But at what cost? GMO food is not done to provide a better product...it is done so Big Government/Business Socialist/Free Trade Globalist can limit producers and production (note these are the same groups of people that always want Government Farm Subsidies)


16 posted on 11/03/2012 8:01:43 AM PDT by SeminoleCounty (Political maturity is realizing that the "R" next to someone's name does not mean "conservative")
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To: Renfield

An interesting book entitled WHEAT BELLY by cardiologist William Davis makes a similar point regarding the newer strains of wheat grown since the mid-sixties. He discovered by accident in his practice that when his heart patients went on wheat-free diets, their heart condition dramatically improved. He set out to find out why and the book is the result.


17 posted on 11/03/2012 8:25:43 AM PDT by Madam Theophilus
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To: Renfield
The researchers also cautioned consumers against eating the wheat if it is approved prematurely. “I would advise citizens to request that these tests be done and the evidence meet with their standards of scientific rigour if in the end it is approved for use,” said Heinemann.

That sounds good until you think about it. Yesterday coffee good, today coffee bad, tomorrow coffee essential. Those scientific rigours?

Lots of ifs, maybe. give me money for further study.

18 posted on 11/03/2012 8:30:56 AM PDT by PeterPrinciple ( (Lord, save me from some conservatives, they don't understand history any better than liberals.))
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To: LearsFool

Hoping that was a /s. Granted, the Internet is full of BS on every subject.

I first heard about GW in the late 80s. I made it a point to find out what I could from sources I could trust. It was a matter of discernment. I guess it took a couple of years before I felt I understood some of the processes and learned that many of those processes are not even understood by the people who study them for a living. It was more difficult to tease out who was reliable and what was accurate/well-understood than it was to cover basic climatology. But, then, I loved that warmer decade and last winter and this warmer Fall, so I once I decided the planet was not in peril, I just relaxed and learned to enjoy GW.

I am still learning about everything. Much more interesting than being in a panic.


19 posted on 11/03/2012 8:47:29 AM PDT by reformedliberal
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To: Renfield

For those in the greater Houston area there will be a viewing of Genetic Roulette on November 17 at the Cynthia Woods Mitchell Library - 8125 Ashland Way, The Woodlands, Texas at 9:30am.

The showing is free and open to the public.


20 posted on 11/03/2012 8:48:41 AM PDT by agondonter
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To: Mase
You may now return to freaking out.

Not freaking, just being careful. For example, with Monsanto's genetically modified "Bt" corn, the corn's DNA is equipped with a gene from soil bacteria called Bt (Bacillus thuringiensis) that produces the Bt-toxin. It's a pesticide that breaks open the stomach of certain insects and kills them. Monsanto and (EPA) assured us it was only insects that would be hurt, and the Bt-toxin would be completely destroyed in the human digestive system, and not have any impact on all of us.

Oops.

Doctors found the corn's Bt-toxin in the blood of pregnant women and their babies, as well as in non-pregnant women.i The study has been accepted for publication in the peer reviewed journal Reproductive Toxicology.

We are being experimented on. I choose not to play as best I can. This is different that selective breeding of plants.

21 posted on 11/03/2012 8:52:29 AM PDT by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: SeminoleCounty

Just curious - why do you bother coming to Free Republic?


22 posted on 11/03/2012 8:58:31 AM PDT by fremont_steve
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To: Mase
Sorry to be the one to break it to you, but everything you eat has been genetically modified in some way over time. Doesn't matter if it comes from selective breeding or from a guy in a lab coat with a gene splicing gun. Humans have been consuming genetically modified food for a long time, and we are living longer, healthier lives today than at any other time in history.

Exactly.

If we were all able to go back in a time machine to 200+ years ago, what would we find? First of all, we’d find produce much smaller and often full of bugs. Prime cuts of beef would be a luxury for most people. Comparatively speaking and in today’s values, items like four and sugar and even salt would be very expensive in today’s dollars.

We’d not be able to get fresh fruits and vegetables during the winter months, we’d see and would be accustomed to shortages in some foods due to local crop failures because of crop pests and diseases. We’d be total dependent on local crops as absent refrigeration and crops that are modified, either from selective breeding or through its much more efficient close cousin and really no different - genetic engineered, to withstand shipping over long distances; we’d be limited to what was grown locally. If you were dependent on what you or your close neighbors grew yourselves and your crops failed, you might well starve to death or come very close to it. And people would die or suffer lifelong disabilities from diseases unknown to us now like scurvy. That’s not to say that everyone didn’t survive and eat fairly well, but it took a lot more personal energy and resources and planning and dollars to do so compared to today.

If we went back in time, we’d also be accustomed to having large families but also with the fact that many of our children would never live to adulthood because they succumbed to now preventable diseases like measles or the flu or simple bacterial infections due to a cut or an abscessed tooth. While a few of us would live to a very ripe old age; that would be the exception as a great many of us would die before the age of 50. Many women would die during child birth.

FWIW, I went shopping at a Wegman’s yesterday – love that store BTW. But as I was shopping for some produce, in particular for some fresh cauliflower, the first thing I noticed was there were two types: conventional and “organic”. The organic heads of cauliflower were half the size and twice the cost of the non-organic. So which do you think I bought?

23 posted on 11/03/2012 8:58:57 AM PDT by MD Expat in PA
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To: MD Expat in PA; Mase

You guys are killing all the ‘we’re gonna die from eating’ fun.


24 posted on 11/03/2012 9:09:18 AM PDT by Balding_Eagle (Liberals, at their core, are aggressive & dangerous to everyone around them,)
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To: count-your-change


25 posted on 11/03/2012 9:12:41 AM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist - *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: Madam Theophilus
when his heart patients went on wheat-free diets, their heart condition dramatically improved.

Dollars to donuts his patients lost weight. Eliminate all bread, pasta cakes, cookies, donuts, etc. from your diet and you will most likely lose plenty of weight. Lose weight and your heart condition improves.

It's not rocket surgery.

26 posted on 11/03/2012 9:13:54 AM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Soebarkah Soetoro)
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To: SeminoleCounty
Fat men with fat cigars are plotting in secret just so the anti-GMO crowd will have another mantra to chant.

“Why mess with God’s natural production?”

You're way too late to the dinner table, there is no food, NO FOOD, you eat that is “natural”.

And the article is an example of misdirection.

27 posted on 11/03/2012 9:15:29 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: SeminoleCounty

You have hit the nail on the head. This is all about monopoly control of the food supply by the One World Government/New World Order/United Nations crowd. SUBMIT TO US, OR YOU WILL NOT EAT.

I’ve stopped eating wheat (I can’t digest it anyway). Occasionally I eat corn chips but they are the non-GMO blue corn type. Havent’ eaten any soy stuff in years. I have two large gardens and an orchard, and raise nearly all of my fruits and vegetables (I still buy bananas at the store). I raise only open-pollinated heirloom varieties. We eat mostly venison and local, grass-fed lamb for our meat. I will not submit to the NWO villains.


28 posted on 11/03/2012 9:16:12 AM PDT by Renfield (Turning apples into venison since 1999!)
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To: Renfield

At some time in the future there will be basically two kinds of people. Those that eat GM foods and those that starve. — Captain Compassion

CC


29 posted on 11/03/2012 9:21:34 AM PDT by Captain Compassion
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To: Chode

Indeed!


30 posted on 11/03/2012 9:22:13 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: FatherofFive
You're not being careful, you're being foolish. The authors of the "study" you cite have no idea where the Cry1Ab protein found in the blood came from. Claiming it came from Bt corn is nothing but speculation on their part. There are numerous other sources that could be responsible. In addition, the authors have offered no evidence that this protein being present in the blood is harmful in any way. I don't know what assay method they used in this study, but I assure you that the Cry1Ab protein is broken down in the stomach. If, however, some fragment were to make its way into the blood, it would present itself in such a small amount that measuring for it would be truly challenging. Of course, with our ability to measure in the smallest of quantities today, it may be found in the blood measured in ppt. I can find just about any chemical I want to find in your blood if I measure for it in picograms. I could probably find benzene in the blood of all pregnant women. Do you think benzene is toxic and dangerous to humans, especially a fetus?

Good grief, man. You need to look up fumonisins and how dangerous those can be to humans if consumed. Then you need to look up the source for this type of fungi (it's corn) and how Monsanto's product protects us from them. Lots of people have died from consuming fumonisins found in corn. Maybe you could link us to a source that proves someone has died from Bt corn. I won't hold my breath.

Again, everything you eat has been genetically modified in some way. To me, being careful is not synonymous with starving. But then, I prefer eating to starving. To each his own.

31 posted on 11/03/2012 9:52:57 AM PDT by Mase (Save me from the people who would save me from myself!)
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To: MD Expat in PA
Love Wegmans too. Wish we had them here in Florida. I never choose products from the organic section as they rarely look and taste as good as the more traditional products. I don't like getting ripped off either. People think that organic is safer because pesticides and herbicides are not used. Nothing could be farther from the truth, but arguing with brick walls is not how I like to spend my time.

People who rant about GM foods should take a few minutes to learn about a guy named Norman Borlaug. Every American should know who he is. Unfortunately, more people know the Kardashians than Borlaug. It's a sad commentary on our society and the sad state of our system of public education.

32 posted on 11/03/2012 9:58:05 AM PDT by Mase (Save me from the people who would save me from myself!)
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To: Balding_Eagle

The anti-science presence on this forum is unfortunate. Nothing like a junk science article on GM foods to bring out the Luddites. Not quite as bad as vaccines, but still unfortunate.


33 posted on 11/03/2012 9:59:51 AM PDT by Mase (Save me from the people who would save me from myself!)
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To: Renfield
Scientists: New GMO wheat may 'silence' vital human genes

I wish it could silence the stupid gene.

But what would panic mongers do then?

34 posted on 11/03/2012 10:18:41 AM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Math is hard. Harder if you're stupid.)
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To: reformedliberal

I’m glad to hear you’re learning. I’m doing the same - as best I can.

The trouble is that much of science has sold out to ideology. You write as though finding the truth these days involved little more that doing an internet search.

Even among those scientists whose integrity has not been compromised, there remains so much ignorance - simply because there’s so much left to discover. So, as someone pointed out above, yesterday coffee was bad for us, but today it’s good for us.

Perhaps its premature, then, to claim that GMO (modified artificially, as opposed to, say, crossbreeding - a distinction some would obscure) is harmful. To claim it’s harmless, on the other hand, is clearly reckless.

Your eagerness to dig for the truth is a rarity, and so it seems unlikely the GMO experiment will be halted. We’ll probably know within a few decades whether or not it was a mistake.


35 posted on 11/03/2012 10:21:00 AM PDT by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: FatherofFive
Do not eat GMO foods. I eliminated all corn and soy from my diet. Don't buy processed foods. Eat natural.

Food companies and the FDA are conducting a huge experiment on Americans. I choose not to participate.


It is your freedom to do so. But not all and very few are affected like your are. Many people can smoke and drink all their lives and not be affected by it.

Humans are very complex, God made us that way. Each of us in very unique right down to our fingerprints. Our response to certain factors is also unique to each one of us.

36 posted on 11/03/2012 10:21:39 AM PDT by PeterPrinciple ( (Lord, save me from some conservatives, they don't understand history any better than liberals.))
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To: Mase
The anti-science presence on this forum is unfortunate.

Is that you, Mr. Gore?
37 posted on 11/03/2012 10:24:13 AM PDT by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: Renfield

CSIRO, a Communist organization. I wouldn’t trust anything from them as being nothing but bias along the same lines as our liberals.


38 posted on 11/03/2012 10:25:08 AM PDT by CodeToad (Padme: "So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause.")
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To: FatherofFive

I buy non-GMO kamut from www.waltonfeed.com and then make my own flour with a hand mill.

Kamut is the ancient wheat grown in Egypt. The seeds were found in a tomb and sprouted after over 2000 years.


39 posted on 11/03/2012 10:36:04 AM PDT by darth
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To: LearsFool

Dear Fool, algore provides and excellent example for the dangers of never having studied science of any kind, and then pretending that you have a clue. I’ve found that many offering their opinion as fact on this forum have had the least amount of training in any scientific discipline. They find something on the internet that fits with, and supports, their belief(s) and then run with it. They do this because they never took the time to obtain the knowledge necessary for differentiating legitimate science from junk. As a result, junk marches on.


40 posted on 11/03/2012 10:37:38 AM PDT by Mase (Save me from the people who would save me from myself!)
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To: Politically Correct

I used to think the same as you.

Then I got Vitamin A poisoning from eating white rice (GMO). To be fair, I took too many supplements and maxed out the Vit A in my liver.

However, I eat rice every day. I had stopped taking supplements and the poisoning got worse. Then I found out that almost all rice has been modified to add lots of Vit A for the benefit of third world kids.

I switched to Non GMO organic brown rice. Problem solved.


41 posted on 11/03/2012 10:40:11 AM PDT by darth
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To: Toddsterpatriot
I wish it could silence the stupid gene.

If only....

Even so, I'd bet the odds are far better that a stupid gene exists than a fat gene or gay gene. There's just too much of it for any other explanation to be plausible.

42 posted on 11/03/2012 10:43:59 AM PDT by Mase (Save me from the people who would save me from myself!)
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To: SeminoleCounty

Thats all true. :)


43 posted on 11/03/2012 10:49:48 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: Jeff Chandler

Actually the story is more complicated than that although you are correct in surmising his overweight patients did loose weight but that does not explain why his thin and physically fit heart patients also improved. There were also quite intriguing consequences of the diet such as dramatic improvements with arthritis and asthma.

Check it out:
CBS interview -
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7420352n

WHEAT BELLY blog -
http://www.wheatbellyblog.com/featured-articles/


44 posted on 11/03/2012 10:51:18 AM PDT by Madam Theophilus
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To: Mase

If FreeRepublic has done nothing else in the scientific arena, it has exposed ideology masquerading as science. This new “science” resists examination, refuses debate, and paints its questioners as Luddites who long for a return to the Dark Ages.

Here’s a popular quote you might wish to adopt, as it’ll probably come in handy whenever the ignorant question your authoritative declarations:

“The science is settled. The debate is over.”


45 posted on 11/03/2012 10:51:42 AM PDT by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: fremont_steve; SeminoleCounty

He comes to freerepublic same reason I do. We have big problems with the attitudes of global elitists, socialism and corporate welfare. Why do you come to freerepublic?

Genetically engineered food needs to be studied and does not deserve being given a corner on the food market by corrupted politicans giving them special considerations.


46 posted on 11/03/2012 10:55:38 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: dljordan
"Maybe the wheat was designed to get rid of millions of pesky humans. What kind of wheat does George Soros and Bill Gates consume?"

Or perhaps, the effort to ban hardier, higher yield, GMOs is spearheaded by the likes of Soros in an effort to starve millions of pesky humans.

47 posted on 11/03/2012 10:57:52 AM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: SLB

FYI


48 posted on 11/03/2012 10:58:35 AM PDT by Stonewall Jackson ( "I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy.")
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To: LearsFool
"Settled science" is most always about politics, not science. It's foolish to present science as "settled." You will hear that term a great deal on FR, however. If you wish to take issue with any of my "authoritative declarations" then have at it. Otherwise, quit whining.

I don't fear debate on this subject. That's absurd. I took issue with the people who fear things they don't understand. Fear of Bt corn, when this particular genetic engineering makes food much safer for consumers, is irrational. If pointing that out gets your panties in a wad, it isn't my fault. Deal.

49 posted on 11/03/2012 11:01:58 AM PDT by Mase (Save me from the people who would save me from myself!)
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To: LearsFool
If FreeRepublic has done nothing else in the scientific arena, it has exposed ideology masquerading as science.

That's true, I never knew there were so many people who think their fear of pasteurization is somehow based on science.

“The science is settled. The debate is over.”

The science is never settled. And we'll always have fear mongers and their anti-science.

50 posted on 11/03/2012 12:24:48 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Math is hard. Harder if you're stupid.)
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