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AP Exclusive: Memos Show US Hushed up Soviet Crime
Associated Press ^ | September 10, 2012 | RANDY HERSCHAFT and VANESSA GERA

Posted on 09/10/2012 10:25:03 AM PDT by dfwgator

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To: HamiltonJay

“its first casualty is the truth”

Yes, but usually some truth that would hurt your cause, not the cause of someone who just happens to be fighting the same enemy a the same time. Truth is, Russia did not rely on a clean international image to fight nazis, and all our concessions amounted to not one on their sure so far as I know that amounted to anything vis a vis Europe.

Japan, again, was a different matter. I could see hushing up Katyn as being necessary for luring Russia into the Pacific before we knew we had the bomb or what the bomb could do. As regards Germany, though, they would have kept on fighting had we surrendered and went about our own business, let alone embarrassed them.


101 posted on 09/10/2012 1:57:42 PM PDT by Tublecane
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To: henkster

“Our war machine wasn’t ready...”

None if this really gainsays my point. Imagine if we hadn’t invaded Africa and Italy before the war machine was ready. Aside from the battle experience we may have gained, imagine if at Normandy in 44 we gad everything we needed plus hadn’t squandered anything. Imagine then that we hadn’t sidelined our best field commander. And we weren’t going to waste time with Market Garden, but were focused on blitzkrieging forward on whatever was the li e of least resistence.

I’m not certain we couldn’t find it. I am certain the route we actually took was about the slowest possible. Finally, I do know getting to Germany as quickly as we could was a better strategy than Churchill’s stupid “soft underbelly,” Eisenhower’s unified front, and Churchill/FDR’s giving Stalin whatever he wants.


102 posted on 09/10/2012 2:07:09 PM PDT by Tublecane
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To: Tublecane
That erases always and forever any notion that the trials were about anything other than just another example of the victors lording it over the losers.

Well it sure beat the Versailles Treaty, which condemned an entire nation, as opposed to just the guilty individuals.

103 posted on 09/10/2012 2:09:57 PM PDT by dfwgator (I'm voting for Ryan and that other guy.)
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To: dfwgator
Well it sure beat the Versailles Treaty, which condemned an entire nation, as opposed to just the guilty individuals.

That treaty, Versailles Treaty, is what condemned the German people to accepting Hitler. Blood is on many hands.

104 posted on 09/10/2012 2:13:20 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Please help Todd Akin defeat Claire and the GOP-e send money!!!!!)
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To: henkster

You could say Poland was not Britain or France’s to hand over, either, when Germany threatened it. But they started a war to prevent Germany from keeping it (but not, oddly, taking any interest in Russia’s invasion). The exact same war that ended with Russia occupying the same Poland. In the sense that neither Britain nor the US did anything to stop Russia from keeping Poland, you can say it was handed over. That’s not a crime against the language considering, again, how the war started.


105 posted on 09/10/2012 2:14:59 PM PDT by Tublecane
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To: Revolting cat!

“Eastern Europe, remember, wasn’t just unconditionally handed over to Stalin. And yet it was betrayed.”

Yet not a peep about the 24,000 ‘liberated’ US POWs Stalin interred in gulags? Stalin used them to obtain concessions and very few came back. The Brits got some of theirs back by bargaining away the lives of 2,000,000 Cossacks who had fled westward into Czechoslovakia. The Cossacks, and their families, were unloaded from the trains into quarries and machine-gunned.


106 posted on 09/10/2012 2:16:13 PM PDT by Justa
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To: Justa

The biggest shame of all was Operation Keelhaul.


107 posted on 09/10/2012 2:19:05 PM PDT by dfwgator (I'm voting for Ryan and that other guy.)
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To: Just mythoughts

That’s a bit too deterministic for my taste, but it was a horrible peace. If they wanted reparations they could at least have tried to rebuild Germany’s economy. Or if they wanted to wipe Germany from the map they could have done what the allies did to them in 45. But the idea that they could jeep them forever as a second class power, how silly.

I blame a few things, and not so much the myth of the guilty nation alone. The whole modern idea of total war and unconditional surrender is wrong, morally and strategically. And Wilsonian wrath against monarchy and in favor of ethnic self-determination is stupid.


108 posted on 09/10/2012 2:22:52 PM PDT by Tublecane
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To: Tublecane
Germany all alone and all by itself did not start WWI. But they sure did get the brunt of the blame and the cost of war. Hence that lunatic Hitler was most ably to take advantage.
109 posted on 09/10/2012 2:25:44 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Please help Todd Akin defeat Claire and the GOP-e send money!!!!!)
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To: Tublecane
And Wilsonian wrath against monarchy and in favor of ethnic self-determination is stupid.

So do you think Poland should not have gained her independence in 1918?

110 posted on 09/10/2012 2:29:26 PM PDT by dfwgator (I'm voting for Ryan and that other guy.)
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To: Justa

Yes, people still don’t seem to realize it’s not just about unnecessarily embarrassing your ally or acquiescing in the face of not wanting to start another war. Nor is it just that they didn’t see it coming, nor that their appeasement strategy was stupid. The US and Britain did all that, but they also actively participated in the red terror. They went out of their way to hand over people destined for execution ir the gulag.


111 posted on 09/10/2012 2:29:42 PM PDT by Tublecane
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To: Just mythoughts

Germany did start the war by itself. Not the smaller Austro-Serbian war, but I think that must be viewed as seperate. That does not mean Germany should been denied a negotiated surrender, nor a place at the peace table. It wasn’t always that the one who started it was forever the Bad Guy and deserved whatever they got from the Good Guys. The treaty could’ve been fair even while acknowledging who started it, which is seperate from “guilt.” Especially when the other side did things as bad or worse after the war was underway.

I don’t acknowledge the “hence” in your post. Blaming Germany and burdening it with costs made Hitler more likely but not inevitable.


112 posted on 09/10/2012 2:41:48 PM PDT by Tublecane
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To: Tublecane
Germany did start the war by itself. Not the smaller Austro-Serbian war, but I think that must be viewed as seperate. That does not mean Germany should been denied a negotiated surrender, nor a place at the peace table. It wasn’t always that the one who started it was forever the Bad Guy and deserved whatever they got from the Good Guys. The treaty could’ve been fair even while acknowledging who started it, which is seperate from “guilt.” Especially when the other side did things as bad or worse after the war was underway. I don’t acknowledge the “hence” in your post. Blaming Germany and burdening it with costs made Hitler more likely but not inevitable.

You and I have read different history books. Germany did not start WWI!!!!!!!!

113 posted on 09/10/2012 2:46:23 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Please help Todd Akin defeat Claire and the GOP-e send money!!!!!)
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To: dfwgator

The Second Polish Republic is another matter altogether from, say, the Frankenstein that were Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia. First of all because ut had been a country before. More importantly because the monarchy that had ruled it, tsarist Russia, no longer existed.

Which isn’t to say its independence was planned well. The Danzig issue gave the slightest bit of credence to Hitler’s claims, which were based on Wilsonian principles. Also insane Nazi principles, but to the outside world principles of ethnic self-determination.


114 posted on 09/10/2012 2:47:59 PM PDT by Tublecane
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To: Just mythoughts

Who started it, then?


115 posted on 09/10/2012 2:48:59 PM PDT by Tublecane
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To: Tublecane
Two pronged front, those Bolshevists, and the Frenchies that wanted back Alsace-Lorraine.
116 posted on 09/10/2012 2:54:58 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Please help Todd Akin defeat Claire and the GOP-e send money!!!!!)
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To: dfwgator

Interesting thread. I’m not surprised that FDR suppressed anything that might make “Uncle Joe” look bad. And of course appealing to either his better nature or sense of shame would have given him a good laugh. Katyn was pure murder, something the Soviet Union excelled in at that time. Of course, it was but a prelude to finishing the job on Poles capable of resistance that occurred in the Warsaw Uprising of 1944.

The lands between Berlin and Moscow in the 1930’s and 1940’s was truly the “Valley of the Shadow of Death”.

You may find the book “Bloodlands” by Timothy Snyder of interest.


117 posted on 09/10/2012 2:58:38 PM PDT by Tijeras_Slim
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To: dsc

Calley deserves every bit of it. A mass murderer who disgraced the uniform of our country.


118 posted on 09/10/2012 3:27:10 PM PDT by KantianBurke (Where was the Tea Party when Dubya was spending like a drunken sailor?)
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To: exit82
Just recently finished reading "Witness" by Whittaker Chambers. It was 800 pages, and the library copy I ordered was published in 1952. FDR was told about Hiss and the other cadre of Communists working in the US government from the mid 1930s to the mid 1940s. He chose to do nothing, as Stalin was too important an ally in the fight against Hitler. Stalin used to be referred to as "Uncle Joe" during WW2 by us, how sick is that? The Venona Papers released in 1995 by the KGB confirmed the identity of the Soviet agents in DC in that time period, and vindicated both Chambers and McCarthy.

You left out the most important Soviet agent of all:

FDR himself.

Look at FDR's imposition of increasing amounts of socialism during the 30's, ever increasing levels of government control over the economy, etc. FDR chose to do nothing about the Communists he deliberately surrounded himself with, because he was one of them.

119 posted on 09/10/2012 3:50:41 PM PDT by PapaBear3625 (Charlie Daniels - Payback Time http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWwTJj_nosI)
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To: PapaBear3625
You left out the most important Soviet agent of all: FDR himself. Look at FDR's imposition of increasing amounts of socialism during the 30's, ever increasing levels of government control over the economy, etc. FDR chose to do nothing about the Communists he deliberately surrounded himself with, because he was one of them.

Sure, that's why everybody's Communist here now.

That's why all private enterprise was nationalized in the Thirties.

That's why millions of Americans died in our Gulag.

That's why the White House was painted red and the Statue of Liberty was replaced by a monument to Lenin.

C'mon. If FDR were actually and literally a Communist our history would have been very different from what it was and we'd be a very different country than we are now.

120 posted on 09/10/2012 3:59:42 PM PDT by x
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