Posted on 08/23/2012 5:49:29 AM PDT by lward99
So you're arguing that laws providing for involuntary psychiatric evaluations exist only in totalitarian regimes?
If so, that's a very incoherent argument.
They are so concerned about the guy they moved him to a facility 3 hours away from his family and legal team.
He is a veteran and at a VA hospital that provides him free treatment.
I'm sure that the state could detain him at a nearby private psychiatric facility for 30 days and charge him the exorbitant rates associated with that.
Of course, then his lawyers would argue that the state was deliberately imposing a grievous financial hardship on Raub and his family which would impair his ability to mount the best possible legal defense.
They have already started the wheels rolling in this direction.
A couple of weeks ago some doctor made the claim and IIRC if you disagree with the homo agenda you had a psychological disorder that made you “hate” and you needed to be treated.
Another doctor was making the ridiculous claim that if you feel you need to own a gun you have a psychological disorder.
Anything you disagree with with this administration and you have a psychological disorder.
People better believe the left will do it here and not just in “other” countries.
“I would also point out that those closest to a mentally ill person are often the ones least willing to admit that there may be a problem.”
Perhaps, but they are also more likely to actually spot symptoms than people who know him only through Facebook postings. They would know his normal behavior previous to to onset of the illness, and the contrast, in a case like schizophrenia would not usually be very subtle. It seems very unusual to me that, after his detention and the case becoming news, the media can’t find one person who actually knew him who says “He began acting strange a few years ago”, or “He was a loner”, etc. The media seems to always be able to dig up those witnesses within a day of any kind of story like this, when it is legitimate.
“While it is possible that he has no problem, I’m not sure how you arrive at “more likely.””
I say more likely, because mental illness that would rise to the level of requiring a forced mental evaluation by the state is rare, and not something that I think you would be likely to be able to spot simply from someone’s internet postings. Ordinary, sane people post so many seemingly deranged statements on the internet, if they actually managed to find a real crazy person in all that chaff, I would be pretty amazed.
“How have they “failed” exactly? What did they need to do that they did not do?”
This:
“The law requires that within four hours of detaining someone, you have to have a magistrate write a petition for a temporary restraining order,” said John Whitehead, an attorney with the Rutherford Institute, the Virginia-based civil rights firm that is defending the ex-Marine. “They didn’t do that. That didn’t happen.”
He was neither arrested nor imprisoned. He is in the hospital.
I'm surprised you never heard of an involuntary psychiatric commitment. They are quite common and are a pretty well-established feature of the American justice system.
That some could disagree means we need as much shrill hysterics as possible to draw attention to this.
What are we trying to draw attention to?
A guy threatened people and was put on a temporary psych hold. It is a daily occurrence and has been for a very, very long time.
What makes this one special? That he's a Truther?
Doesn’t that make your spidey senses tingle just a little?
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Not without more information. I had to involuntarily commit my off her meds bipolar mother (RIP) several times and for a judge to extend his stay to 30 days is a strong indicator that he’s got some serious issues. Judges in commitment cases (in my own experience of course - but I’ve experienced it first hand) are very heavily biased towards the patient, not to the side looking for commitment.
Wrong. Whenever the State takes someone into custody it is legally considered an arrest. When you are locked in someplace by the State you are imprisoned. Semantics aside.
"A guy threatened people and was put on a temporary psych hold."
Please show me a shred of evidence that this guy threatened people. Give me the names of the people he threatened.
"I'm surprised you never heard of an involuntary psychiatric commitment."
Oh yes I heard of them. The USSC says a temporary hold requires probable cause to believe that the person is a danger to himself or others. There has not been a shred of evidence produced to this effect. And it is NOT a daily occurance that people are committed because of their political views......except back in the USSR.
Can you say NDAA? That’s what is likely going on here. First the DHS labels returning veterans as low level domestic terrorists and then they pass NDAA with the help of the GOP. Naturally they will use this evaluation period to try and keep the poor guy from ever having a firarm again.
The icing on the cake is that its a subtle form of intimidation for the rest of us to start self censoring so we don’t find ourselves in the same situation. They just tried this stuff on Ted Nugent a couple of months ago.
How many Lefty’s are they picking up and detaining? Answer: None.
Putting you in a psych ward is SOP for totalitarian regimes.
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Jeez, who knew my sister and I were following the SOPs of totalitarian regimes when we had to involuntarily commit our mother - who was off her meds and dangerously psychotic?
Clearly you’ve never been in an actual commitment hearing before a judge, because if you had, you’d know the bias towards the patient.
There just might be something more going on here than are privy to. A judge extending a stay by 30 days for eval is a strong indicator that the guy has some pretty serious mental health issues. And I say that, again, with only my own experience in these matters guiding my opinions.
After the government has 30 days to fill him with various "medications" at the psychiatric facility he's being "evaluated" at, my bet is if he wasn't insane going in, he will be coming out. Time will tell.
[ The fact that he is being held in a medical facility for 30 days in order to evaluate his health is less concerning. That’s not an uncommon phenomenon, even among those without a strong internet following.
If, at the end of 30 days, he is not either released or found to be insane by independent physicians, then I would be much more concerned. ]
This concerns me greatly, because some ivory tower paid off democrap hack of an psychologist could deem someone from the Tea Party as Insane and basically ruin thier life by taking them out of circulation for 30 days causing them to lose their job and/or crash the small business that they own if they are the sole proprietor.
I haven't seen any quotes from family or friends saying "He is totally normal and together" either.
Not a lot of data for or against on that point.
I say more likely, because mental illness that would rise to the level of requiring a forced mental evaluation by the state is rare, and not something that I think you would be likely to be able to spot simply from someone’s internet postings.
If the Facebook screen capture I saw is authentic, he threatened federal employees.
That would occasion a visit. Apparently, when the police spoke to him they interpreted his responses as being symptomatic of mental illness and brought in an evaluator.
So it wasn't just posts but also an interview.
“The law requires that within four hours of detaining someone, you have to have a magistrate write a petition for a temporary restraining order,” said John Whitehead, an attorney with the Rutherford Institute, the Virginia-based civil rights firm that is defending the ex-Marine. “They didn’t do that. That didn’t happen.”
According to his attorney's filed motion, the TRO was not provided in four hours but in nine hours. So he is arguing a technical point - that they followed procedure but that it took too long.
There will be a hearing on that technical point today.
In practice, there are frequently arguments in court about timing, and typically judges will allow parties leeway on timing if they can demonstrate best efforts. As in "the ADA was waiting there for the TRO to be signed, but the presiding judge was busy and made her wait three hours" etc.
But as the motion concedes, the police brought in a county evaluator and an independent evaluator, did get a TRO and then did get a proper warrant for involuntary commission.
His attorney's argument is not based on a failure to undertake the legally necessary steps, but on their tardiness.
Thank you.
This has nothing to do with any any federal statute, since Raub was detained under Virginia state law providing for involuntary commissions - a law that predates NDAA by decades.
You don't medicate someone you're evaluating, because it interferes with your evaluation.
After the evaluation you then diagnose and decide to recommend medication or not.
my bet is if he wasn't insane going in, he will be coming out
He was a Truther going in.
[ Jeez, who knew my sister and I were following the SOPs of totalitarian regimes when we had to involuntarily commit our mother - who was off her meds and dangerously psychotic? ]
You KNEW your mother and her condition as did the rest of your family, I have some crazy people in my family too.
As much as I can tell from the information from the media NOT ONE family memeber has stepped forward and said, “He is kinda off”... He was put under 30 day shrink wrap for the sole reason of one facebook posting for all we can tell.
The media doesn’t even cite a pattern of prolonged behavior or previous criminal charges etc... When people chat on message boards and facebook there is more “freedom” in saying what you really think in a more unfiltered way, do you really want a moment of “internet passion” end u you up in a 30 vacation in the looney bin?
You need to show cause in order to get a court-ordered warrant for an involuntary commission.
A normal Tea Partier rarely posts threats that tell military officers that "I am coming for you."
Tea Partiers, in my experience, are more about reasoned argument than vague threats.
I’m sure you didn’t commit Mom to the psych ward for posting song lyrics on her facebook page. This is a whole different scenario.
Under law, if you are committed to a mental institute you are forbidden to posses weapons thereafter. This is about nothing more than the old Soviet doctrine of “you want freedom, you must be insane”. This is a gun grab and case precedent nothing more.
I’m sure you didn’t commit Mom to the psych ward for posting song lyrics on her facebook page. This is a whole different scenario.
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