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Do the Church Fathers, the Founding Fathers, and Catholic Saints Really Go Together?
Christianity Today ^ | 7/5/2012 | Timothy Samuel Shah

Posted on 07/07/2012 3:01:18 AM PDT by iowamark

America's Roman Catholic bishops just completed the "Fortnight for Freedom," a two-week period intended to "support a great national campaign of teaching and witness for religious liberty." As evangelical and Catholic leaders have spent the past year opposing the Obama administration's so-called contraceptive mandate, the timing, motives, and agenda driving the "Fortnight for Freedom" have prompted widespread commentary. Rather than scrutinizing the Fortnight's agenda, Protestants could examine deeper questions than what took place on the surface.

It's important to consider the Fortnight's placement on the calendar—the significance of the Fortnight's dates, June 21 to July 4—to understand the nature of religious freedom and the relationship between what to some mixes like oil and water: the Christian tradition and American liberty.

It's worth considering whether the church fathers and the founding fathers enjoy a deeper conceptual affinity—precisely around the meaning and foundations of religious freedom—than many people (including perhaps the bishops) have noticed.

The Fortnight for Freedom began on June 21, marking the vigil of the feasts of Saint John Fisher and Saint Thomas More. Fisher and More were both executed because they refused to endorse Henry VIII's claimed supremacy over the English church. The vast majority of English nobles and bishops endorsed the supremacy, while Fisher and More stood virtually alone. Though urged to use mental reservation to endorse the succession while denying its legitimacy in their hearts, the men were convinced that they could not do so without violating their consciences and endangering their salvation. As More declared,

"I could not meet with the Works of any one Doctor, approved by the Church, that avouch a Layman was, or ever could be the Head of the Church."

Fisher was executed on June 22, 1535, and More was executed on July 6, 1535...

(Excerpt) Read more at christianitytoday.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: catholic; churchfathers; fortnightforfreedom; foundingfathers; religiousfreedom
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To: count-your-change; Sirius Lee; lilycicero; MaryLou1; glock rocks; JPG; Monkey Face; RIghtwardHo; ...
count-your-change wrote:
A resounding “NO”! and here’s why:

About the time Thomas More was proclaiming the supremacy of his conscience over the king's orders, the Catholic church was the driving force in bringing thousands of those it called heretics to their deaths.

Neither Christ nor his disciples took up violence against even their most aggressive opposers.
And the attitude of the founding fathers was a “live and let live” in matters of religion.

And yet count-your-change seems unable to identify even ONE Jehovah's Witness who signed the Declaration of Independence. Odd, s/he knows so much about the middle ages and yet cannot answer a simple American history question. Anyone care to help count-your-change with either the flaws in his odd views of history or the answer to my question?
41 posted on 07/08/2012 1:26:34 PM PDT by narses
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To: narses

You said it better than me. Thanks.


42 posted on 07/08/2012 1:26:58 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: count-your-change

**Waldensians, Waldenses or Vaudois are names for a Christian movement of the later Middle Ages, descendants of which still exist in various regions, primarily in North-Western Italy.**

About Europe

We are talking about America here — not Europe.


43 posted on 07/08/2012 1:30:16 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: narses

LOL!


44 posted on 07/08/2012 1:31:33 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: narses

I thought it would be obvious that you’re being ignored and rightly so, but I guess it’s necessary that I continue to explain the obvious, so....You’re being ignored.


45 posted on 07/08/2012 1:37:48 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Salvation
Most informative:

Signers of the Declaration of Independence - Christian Background

http://churchvstate.blogspot.com/2007/10/signers-of-declaration-of-independence.html

Many question whether our Founders really were Christians. Here are some facts about the signers of the Declaration of Independence. (See also the post from 10/25 about signers of the Constitution.)


  • Adams, John - Congregationalist and later a Unitarian (he did not accept the Trinity). He said, "To enable me to maintain this declaration I rely, under God, with entire confidence on the firm and enlightened support of the national legislature and upon the virtue and patriotism of my fellow citizens." (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Adams, Samuel - Congregationalist. "We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His kingdom come." Also: "The rights of the colonists as Christians...may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institutes of the Great Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament." (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Bartlett, Josiah - Bartlett was a Congregationalist. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Braxton, Carter - Braxton was a member of the Episcopal church. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Carroll, Charles - Roman Catholic. Carroll said, "Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Chase, Samuel - Chase was an Episcopalian. As a Supreme Court Justince he said, "Religion is of general and public concern, and on its support depend, in great measure, the peace and good order of government, the safety and happiness of the people. By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty." (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Clark, Abraham - Clark was a Presbyterian, and said once, ""Nothing short of the Almighty Power of God can Save us-it is not in our Numbers, our Union, or our Valour that I dare trust." (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Clymer, George - Was both a Quaker and an Episcopalian (Signer of Declaration of Independence, Delegate to Constitutional Convention, Signer of Constitution)
  • Ellery, William - Ellery was known as a Congregationalist and a devout Christian. From Lossing's "Signers of the Declaration of Independence" we hear, "As a patriot and a Christian, his name will ever be revered." (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Floyd, William - Floyd was a Presbyterian. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Gerry, Elbridge - Gerry was an Episcopalian. Promoted Massachusetts' Religious Freedoms Act. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Gwinnett, Button - Gwinnett was an Episcopalian and a Congregationalist. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Hall, Lyman - Hall was a Congregationalist and served as a minister in Connecticut. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Hancock, John - Hancock was a Congregationalist. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Harrison, Benjamin - Harrison was a member of the Episcopal church. He professed that religion was necessary to society and that government should support it. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Hart, John - Hart was a Presbyterian. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Hewes, Joseph - Hewes was a Quaker and an Episcopalian. He was the son of a pious and well-to-do Quaker farmer and received a strict religious upbringing. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Heyward, Thomas - Heyward was a member of the Episcopal church. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Hooper, William - Hooper was an Episcopalian. He was trained at Harvard as a minister. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Hopkins, Stephen - He was a Quaker with an active interest in the church. He believed in the divinity of the Christian religion. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Hopkinson, Francis - Hopkinson was an Episcopalian. He became a Church music director and edited a hymnal that set all of 150 psalms to music. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Huntington, Samuel - He was a Congregationalist. According to B. J. Lossing's “Signers of the Declaration of Independence,” it is known that “Governor Huntington lived the life of the irreproachable and sincere Christian... as a devoted Christian and a true patriot, he never swerved from duty...” (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Jefferson, Thomas - Jefferson was probably best called a Deist, but he is also claimed by Unitarians and some Christian denominations. He was the one who penned the idea that our rights come from God (“Creator”) (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Lee, Francis Lightfoot - Lee was an Anglican and a devout Christian. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Lee, Richard Henry - Lee was an Anglican and known as a sincere Christian. He professed that religion was necessary to society and that government should support it. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Lewis, Francis - Lewis was an Episcopalian. His father was an Episcopal clergyman, his mother was a clergyman's daughter. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Livingston, Philip - Livingston was a Presbyterian and belonged to an eminent Christian family. He followed the Christian religion. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Lynch, Thomas - Member of the Episcopal Church (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Madison, James - Member of the Episcopal Church. He said, "The belief in a God, all powerful, wise, and good, [is] essential to the moral order of the world, and to the happiness of man." (Signer of Declaration of Independence, Delegate to Constitutional Convention, Signer of Constitution)
  • McKean, Thomas - McKean was a member of the Presbyterian Church. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Middleton, Arthur - Member of the Episcopal Church (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Morris, Lewis - Morris was an Episcopalian. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Morris, Robert - Member of the Episcopal Church (Signer of Declaration of Independence, Delegate to Constitutional Convention, Signer of Constitution)
  • Morton, John - Member of the Episcopal Church. In his will he said, “...for the settling of such temporal estate as it hath pleased God to bless me with in this life...” (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Nelson, Thomas Jr. - Nelson was a member of the Episcopal church. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Paca, William - Paca was an Episcopalian and a consistent Christian. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Paine, Robert - Paine left Calvinism to become a Unitarian. He served as a military chaplain. He said, "I am constrained to express my adoration of . . . the Author of my existence . . . [for] His forgiving mercy revealed to the world through Jesus Christ, through whom I hope for never ending happiness in a future state." (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Penn, John - Penn was a member of the Episcopalian church. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Read, George - Read was an Episcopalian. (Signer of Declaration of Independence, Signer of Constitution)
  • Rodney, Caesar - Rodney was an Episcopalian. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Rush, Benjamin - Rush was a Presbyterian. He was founder and manager of the Philadelphia Bible Society (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Ross, George - Ross was an Anglican. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Rutledge, Edwards - Rutledge was an Anglican. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Smith, James - Smith was a Presbyterian. He was quite strick that those in his presense should not speak ill of Christianity. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Stockton, Richard - Stockton was a Presbyterian. He said, "I think it proper here not only to subscribe to . . . doctrines of the Christian religion . . . but also, in the bowels of a father's affection, to exhort and charge them [my children] that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, that the way of life held up in the Christian system is calculated for the most complete happiness." (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Stone, Thomas - Stone was an Episcopalian. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Taylor, George - Taylor was a Presbyterian and the son of a clergyman. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Thornton, Matthew - Thornton was a member of the Presbyterian Church and known as a devout Christian. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Walton, George - Walton was an Episcopalian. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Whipple, William - . (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Williams, William - Williams was a Congregationalist and a devout Christian. He studied for the ministry. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Witherspoon, John - Witherspoon was a Presbyterian. He said, "[S]hun, as a contagious pestilence,... those especially whom you perceive to be infected with the principles of infidelity or [who are] enemies to the power of religion" (Signer of Declaration of Independence, Signer of Constitution)
  • Wolcott, Oliver - He was a Congregationalist and a devout Christian. (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
  • Wythe, George - Wythe was a member of the Episcopal church. He helped draft instructions for an embassy in Canada, which said, "You are further to declare that we hold sacred the rights of conscience, and may promise to the whole people, solemnly in our name, the free and undisturbed exercise of their religion. And...that all civil rights and the right to hold office were to be extended to persons of any Christian denomination." (Signer of Declaration of Independence)


46 posted on 07/08/2012 1:50:07 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: count-your-change

ROTFLMAO! Ignored? And yet you keep posting to me, all the while ignoring the questions that expose your ignorance and heresies. Too funny. Ignored!


47 posted on 07/08/2012 1:50:07 PM PDT by narses
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To: narses
Episcopalian/Anglican 88 54.7%
Presbyterian 30 18.6%
Congregationalist 27 16.8%
Quaker 7 4.3%
Dutch Reformed/German Reformed 6 3.7%
Lutheran 5 3.1%
Catholic 3 1.9%
Huguenot 3 1.9%
Unitarian 3 1.9%
Methodist 2 1.2%
Calvinist 1 0.6%
TOTAL 204
 
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080704190612AAZUkpj


48 posted on 07/08/2012 1:51:14 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Not a single JW, how strange. It is almost like they did not even exist then. Strange.


49 posted on 07/08/2012 1:51:24 PM PDT by narses
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To: narses

You are too funny... :)


50 posted on 07/08/2012 1:57:20 PM PDT by GGpaX4DumpedTea (I am a Tea Party descendant...steeped in the Constitutional Republic given to us by the Founders.)
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To: Salvation
Actually we were talking about a murderous Inquisition and why a repeat of it was not part of the American religious experience.

But back to an earlier comment you made: “And all the Catholics that were killed at that time? Far outnumber your assumption in my opinion.”

Source please.

51 posted on 07/08/2012 1:59:11 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: GGpaX4DumpedTea

You should see me in a lampshade. :)


52 posted on 07/08/2012 1:59:18 PM PDT by narses
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To: count-your-change
Actually we were talking about a murderous Inquisition and why a repeat of it was not part of the American religious experience.
No that was your unsupported by history red herring. Sorry. No sale. And hey, how about the facts above - not ONE of your sect was involved in the Declaration of Independence - imagine that.
53 posted on 07/08/2012 2:07:51 PM PDT by narses
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To: Salvation

And how many of these signers were “heretics” by Roman Catholic definition?


54 posted on 07/08/2012 2:14:25 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change

And how many of these signers were “heretics” by (the missing at the time) Jehovah’s Witness definition?


55 posted on 07/08/2012 2:41:36 PM PDT by narses
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To: count-your-change

{{{CRICKETS}}}


56 posted on 07/08/2012 3:01:14 PM PDT by narses
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To: iowamark

The founding fathers didn’t have much good to say about organized hierarchical religions or the role of the Catholic church in their day and in history.


57 posted on 07/08/2012 3:06:21 PM PDT by allmendream (Tea Party did not send GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism)
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To: iowamark; All; NYer; Salvation; narses

Not to get off topic, but I thought of this (hey, i’m old and scattered).

July 7th differences.

http://www.survivalbasictraining.com/2/post/2012/07/first-post.html

Story one, Obama:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/obama-campaign-trying-to-appeal-to/

Story two, George W.:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2169770/Former-President-George-Bush-forgoes-July-Fourth-celebrations-spends-holidays-Zambian-orphanage.html


58 posted on 07/08/2012 3:11:41 PM PDT by AliVeritas (God's will be done. Pray, Pray, Pray, Penance, Penance, Penance.)
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To: allmendream; count-your-change
allmendream wrote:
The founding fathers didn’t have much good to say about organized hierarchical religions or the role of the Catholic church in their day and in history.
Odd, very odd. You see, count-your-change wrote:
And the attitude of the founding fathers was a “live and let live” in matters of religion.
Now the truth allmendream is that you are correct, but that is not what count-your-change wrote. Another error? Wow, it looks like NOTHING count-your-change wrote is accurate. mImagine that!
59 posted on 07/08/2012 3:31:36 PM PDT by narses
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To: narses

It neither picks my pocket or breaks my leg if my neighbor says there are two gods or twenty. They may live and let live, but not without criticism based upon ideology history theology etc.

Our founders were critical of Catholicism but were perfectly willing to let them live teach convert etc. But not free from criticism.

While the rest of the world was busy killing over differences in religion, our founders advanced the ideology of freedom of conscious.


60 posted on 07/08/2012 3:49:31 PM PDT by allmendream (Tea Party did not send GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism)
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