'Israelis have a legal right to settle all Judea and Samaria'

ISRAPUNDIT ^ | July 4/12 | Edna Adato, ISRAEL HAYOM

[tedbel]

Retired Supreme Court Justice Edmond Levy, who heads a committee tasked with examining the legality of Jewish construction in Judea and Samaria, declared on Tuesday that Israelis have a legal right to settle the region.

"According to international law, Israelis have a legal right to settle all of Judea and Samaria, at the very least the lands that Israel controls under agreements with the Palestinian Authority. Therefore, the establishment of Jewish settlements [in Judea and Samaria] is, in itself, not illegal."

The committee was established by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in efforts to determine and cement the legal status of the outposts in Judea and Samaria, with an emphasis on communities that were not built on privately owned Palestinian land but their status was still in doubt due to legal bureaucracy.

The committee issued its report on Tuesday, which was subsequently handed over to Attorney-General Yehuda Weinstein. In the report, Levy wrote that

"upon completing the committee's tasks, and considering the testimonies heard, the basic conclusion is that from an international law perspective, the laws of 'occupation' do not apply to the unique historic and legal circumstances surrounding Israel's decades-long presence in Judea and Samaria."

"Likewise," the report said, "the Fourth Geneva Convention [relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War] on the transfer of populations does not apply, and wasn't intended to apply to communities such as those established by Israel in Judea and Samaria."

In the part of the report that criticizes Israel's actions, the retired justice wrote that

"dozens of new neighborhoods have been erected, without government authorization and at times without a contiguous link to the mother community. Several were built outside the legal jurisdiction allotted to the community. [..]"

[knarf]

I know it's wiki .. but it's all I could find about a guy that seems to know what he's doing and what he's talking about

[gandalftb]

All parties, including Israel, in 1949 and 1979 agreed to the borders and the political status of the residents of the West Bank (Judea/Samaria) as citizens of Jordan.

Belligerent occupation is governed by The Hague Regulations of 1907, the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, and the customary laws of belligerent occupation.

Here’s UN Security Council Resolution 1322 (2000):

http://daccess-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N00/679/37/PDF/N0067937.pdf?OpenElement

There are also UN Resolutions 476 (1980), 478 (1980), 672 (1990), and 1073 (1996).

Not one country or court or political body of any kind agrees with Israel’s determined efforts to move its citizens to a foreign country for permanent residency.

Jericho was settled about 11,000 years ago. Babylonian Hebrews arrived 7,000 years later. They then left but came back hundreds of years later and decided that the subsequent residents all needed to die, every man, woman, child, and their livestock.

“They enforced the curse of destruction on everyone in the city; men and women, young and old, including the oxen, the sheep, and the donkeys, slaughtering them all. — Joshua 6:20-21”

What did Menachem Begin (Nobel Peace Prize, 1978) have to say?: “If I don’t define right or wrong for myself, who will do it for me?”

How about a little Leviticus 19.18: “You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against any of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Israel: annex the West Bank and give all its residents, including your settlers, full legal citizenship status, including the right to vote, run for office, due process, etc.

Otherwise the status quo guarantees more generations of all Jews and Muslims that are raised on hate and fear.

[circlecity]

For the last 3000 years the only “right” anyone has had to land in that area is force of arms.

[Excellence]

Frankly, your statement applies to all times and all places. I laugh at all the U.N. proclamations, and just wish Israel would take whatever they are capable of taking because it is in the free world’s best interest.

[dfwgator]

Who is going to do it, The Judean Peoples’ Front, or the Peoples’ Front of Judea?

[gandalftb]

We are now deporting more Mexican citizens than are coming in and it is much harder to get in, much less get a job here.

Mexico signed away those territories, including Texas.

Haven’t seen any sign that US ethnic Hispanic citizens of those former territories want to rejoin Mexico.

[gandalftb]

Per Israel’s Census Bureau, 2009:

http://www1.cbs.gov.il/reader/shnaton/shnatone_new.htm?CYear=2010&Vol=61&CSubject=2

Israel is 17% Muslim (1,286,000/7,552,000). That’s up from five years earlier when it was 16% Muslim, 10 years earlier it was 15%, 15 years earlier it was 14%. Israel’s Muslim population is growing 6% - 7% faster than its Jewish population. That has been a steady trend for the last 25 years.

The West Bank is 83% Muslim (2,566,820/3,092,555) (includes 524,000 Israeli settlers).

If Israel annexes the West Bank the new demographic is 3,852,820 Muslims out of a total population of 10,644,555. The new Israel would be 36% Muslim.

Given the higher population expansion of the Muslims at the current 6 - 7%, the Muslims would be a majority of the citizens of Israel in 8-10 years.

Political power would shift over the following 5-10 years, you could easily see a Muslim Prime Minister of Israel in 20 years.

The Knesset is already 13% Muslim. Without annexing, Israel will be a majority Muslim in about 22 years.

Israel needs to face the future political reality of Jews self-choosing to have a slower population expansion as compared to Israeli Muslims.

[gandalftb]

A lot of Republicans and Democrats from Carter to Reagan to Obama to Romney are in favor of a managed amnesty for certain illegals that are clearly Americans in every way except on paper.

So am I.

It doesn’t matter how it happened, what matters is how Israel and the Palestinians see the future and accept the change that’s coming.

What do you propose?

Those “plenty of hispanics” are a fringe group with no political theory on how they would do it. If they did they would at least gather money and try an initiative or referendum, which they’ve never done in any state.

“If the Arabs have a right to secede” From where to where?

“American Chicanos in the SW” are free to migrate to Mexico any time they want, adios!

[SVTCobra03]

For the last 3000 years the only “right” anyone has had to land in that area is force of arms.

Which will come to pass after the imminent Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38-39 War.

[rightwingcrazy]

Demographic projections like that are like predicting the weather, often worse. Furthermore, birthrates in 3rd world populations tend to drop as the women in them get literate and educated. Iran and Saudi Arabia aren’t even at replacement level anymore. The birth rate of Arabs in Israel is dropping, and at any rate is much lower than that of religious Jews there. If you insist on a linear extrapolation based on current birth rates, you’d conclude that Israel is going to be overwhelmingly populated by religious Jews in the next 100 years.

[EQAndyBuzz]

“So what do you intend to do about all the illegals in the American southwest? That was Mexican territory in the past.”

Give them Mexifornia, apologize for the inconvenience and call it a day.

55 less Rat votes. Win win.

[BlackVeil]

It is a bit different from the US, because the Arabs in those territories are not citizens of Israel, and are not allowed to live in Israel, although Israeli Jewish citizens are allowed to live in the territories.

[Yehuda]

"Haven’t seen any sign that US ethnic Hispanic citizens of those former territories want to rejoin Mexico."

Then you must be blind, deaf, or a liar.

"Not one country or court or political body of any kind agrees with Israel’s determined efforts to move its citizens to a foreign country for permanent residency."

WHAT "FOREIGN" COUNTRY? Jordan had been created out of BS by the british on land PROMISED BY THE BRITISH AND THE BIBLE TO BE RETURNED TO THE JEWS, and Jordan had themselves occupied land AFTER ATTACKING ISRAEL after the UN agreed to a partition that JORDAN REJECTED, land that the ottoman turks (DECEASED NATION) had stolen from the Romans (DECEASED "NATION") who had stolen it from Jews (ALWAYS EXISTING), WHO RECLAIMED THEIR LAND.

Additionally, your BS stats about muslim demographics have been repeatedly refuted, e.g. here:

Israel should re-annex Yesha, and anyone living there who doesn't swear allegiance to the Jewish State can swear obedience to her laws and remain as a resident alien with limited rights, JUST LIKE ALIENS IN OTHER NATIONS, otherwise they can GO LIVE IN THE SURROUNDING KORANUS LANDS WITH THEIR KORANUS LOVING RELATIVES, where their ancestors ALL CAME FROM to squat and live like parasites on the Jews.

And do us a favor, stop being a revolting jackass and stop misquoting a Bible you obviously don't believe in to further your BS arguments of exterminating Jews by handing over JEWISH LAND to JIHADIC SCUM.

[Ezekiel]

Israel should re-annex Yesha, and anyone living there who doesn't swear allegiance to the Jewish State can swear obedience to her laws and remain as a resident alien with limited rights, JUST LIKE ALIENS IN OTHER NATIONS

That sounds like a good plan, especially come a time when Americans will be desperate for a safe haven (political asylum).

[ClearCase_guy]

Haven’t seen any sign that US ethnic Hispanic citizens of those former territories want to rejoin Mexico.

You haven't been looking.

[Zionist Conspirator]

That sounds like a good plan, especially come a time when Americans will be desperate for a safe haven (political asylum).

Mmm . . . a safe haven in the Holy Land, legendary country of Redneck Myth, where all that Biblical stuff that never actually happened didn't happen! Oh, how I'd like to change place with the muzzies and Jew-hating chr*stians over there right now, twangingly mispronouncing the familiar Hebrew names in my inbred, trailer park accent! ::Sigh:: Us crackers was born in the wrong place.

Unfortunately, we don't have the right to settle there. 'Eretz Yisra'el is the sacristy of the world and reserved for the Priestly Nation. Non-Jews may visit, yes, but stay permanently? That would require the status of a ger toshav, which is not available at present.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Let's see . . . we've got FReepers crusading against circumcision, FReepers screaming about "dual loyalty," FReepers stewing about the genocide of Canaanites three thousand years ago . . .

When's the Blood Libel going to pop up?

[ClearCase_guy]

[Ezekiel]

'Eretz Yisra'el is the sacristy of the world and reserved for the Priestly Nation.

As it should be.

That would require the status of a ger toshav, which is not available at present.

The Supreme Law of the United States was dealt a swift death blow that few saw coming. What is the next horror lurking on the horizon? And the next? Even the secular have been suddenly thrust into a parallel Geula watch, as they seek redemption from Obamacare and its cojoined twin, lawlessness. Obamacare truly is a covenant with death, and anarchy is chaos/hell.

Should it become so desperate and dangerous in the States for lovers of life and liberty, that Israel extends a life-saving hand to asylum-seeking Americans, allegiance to the Jewish State would be paramount.

Maybe they could name the settlement Kiryat Cracker. Or how about Ramat Redneck? Har Honky? :)

Anyway, I've been wondering for many years when/how such an asylum senario could take shape. Looks a lot less like crazy talk these days. Especially after looking up the term you just mentioned.

גר תושב‎‎

= 911!!!

Like the Statue of Liberty waving that red flag on August 23, 2001, Hashem telegraphed another severe red flag warning through Obamalek's own hand, on [Red] Flag Day, 2 weeks before the SCOTUS decision was read. At "One World" Trade Center:

Obama's "We" isn't "We the People." More like "We the destroyers, usurpers, bogus birthright claimants, and 5/9 of the USSC."

[gandalftb]

“Demographic projections are like predicting the weather”
“The birth rate of Arabs in Israel is dropping”

Says whom? Post a source backing up your demographics, I did: Israel’s own Census Bureau.

The Muslim death rate is dropping quickly due to improved nutrition and health care, dropping more than the Jewish death rate as Jews have generally always had a healthier lifestyle and great access to health care. That will put the Muslims even farther ahead.

[M. Thatcher]

Haven’t seen any sign that US ethnic Hispanic citizens of those former territories want to rejoin Mexico.

What????????? You are willfully blind, then.

[gandalftb]

“Reagan regretted his amnesty.”

Yes, because he and the subsequent Bush’s and Clinton did not close the border to new Mexican citizens who thought the amnesty would continue.

Reagan also was not clairvoyant and couldn’t foresee the American employers wanting cheap help, the drug trade, and a pathetic identification system that allowed hundreds of illegals to share a social security number and states that would issue driver’s licenses with no supporting identification.

Now that we’re on to the illegals, we have out-migration for the first time.

[gandalftb]

“What????????? You are willfully blind, then.”

Back up what you say. Google it. Post any petition, money raising, or organizing effort that proposes that any state secede from the Union and rejoin Mexico.

Mexican citizens are free to repatriate to Mexico at any time for free. Bottom line, Mexicans are far better off in the US and aren’t going back in any significant numbers, except by force.

[gandalftb]

Yehuda!!

I can always be satisfied that my facts are on the right track when you pop up and start calling names instead of posting counter facts and offer no sources. Thank you.

Lemmesee...You want Jordan to be returned to the Jews. I wouldn’t stay up late waiting for that to happen.

You say the The Central Bureau of Statistics (Israel) offers “BS stats about muslim demographics”. These are your own demographers, you need to straighten them out. Here’s their contact information:

Kanfei Nesharim St.66
P.O.B 34525
Jerusalem 91342

E-mail: info@cbs.gov.il

Call from 8:00 - 16:00 1-800-232-233
or between 8:00 - 21:00 (in the Jerusalem area) 1-800-210-290

I’ll be more than happy to post up any stats you get them to revise.

We agree on Israel re-annexing Yesha. Make them all citizens of the new, 36% Muslim, Israel. Yahuda, gonna let all those new Muslim citizens vote and run for office? How many Muslims are going to vote Likud? What does the Bible say about all that?

“stop being a revolting jackass and stop misquoting a Bible you obviously don’t believe in to further your BS arguments of exterminating Jews”

Yehuda, the Bible says what it says, look up the passages I posted, offer your interpretation instead of name calling.

You have no idea what my beliefs are other than peace and reconciliation. Look at the vicious insults you offer and its evident what your beliefs are.....hatred.

Hatred for anyone that offers the reality that Israel is delusional in thinking it will reclaim and push out all Arabs of the former Jewish lands.

I and a growing number of Americans are tired of being a punching bag for nut-case jihadists because they see Israel hiding behind us.

Here’s a simple task for you Yehuda, get the Knesset to pass a law making it illegal for any Israeli business to hire aliens. That would stop 95,000 non-Israeli Palestinians from entering Israel every day to go to work.

They’re good enough to work for you. Come on Yehuda, your bigotry is showing.

[rightwingcrazy]

http://www.worldnewstribune.com/2012/06/17/jewish-fertility-rate-on-rise-modernization-takes-toll-on-arab-families/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Muslims

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4019826,00.html

http://www.themuslimwoman.org/entry/fertility-rate-muslim-women-israel/

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2127rank.html

[gandalftb]

Thank you for the citations, let’s have a look at them.

#1 - “a former Israeli diplomat who organized a major demographic study” “research was not based on figures released by the Palestinian Authority” Come on, this is hardly a balanced study. Even so, it shows that Jewish fertility is still not greater than Arab fertility and there is no discussion about the quickly declining Arab death rate.
Any demographic study has to include birth rate and death rate to be credible on projections.

#2 - “Projections based on 2010 data, predicted that Arab Israelis will constitute 25% of Israel’s population by 2025.” “In 2006, the official number of Arab residents in Israel was 20% of Israel’s population.” Thank you, that citation backs up my point that Arab % will increase.

#3 - “By 2030, Muslims will number 2.1 million or 23.2% of the population in Israel.” Again, this citation backs up my point that Arab % in Israel will increase. The general decline in Muslim birth rates mentioned is in reference to worldwide birth rates, not Israel.

#4 - “70% were born to Jewish women and only a handful of 24% were that of Muslim women.” Muslims are only 20% of the population, but produced 24% of the babies. Again, supports the fact that Muslim birth rate is higher than Jewish.

#5 - The West Bank is ranked #63, 2.98 births per woman, Israel is ranked 11.6% worse at #75, 2.67 births per woman. Again thank you for supporting my point. I’ve got to save that source.

[rightwingcrazy]

Your argument underscores my other point: demographic projections are as bad or worse than predicting the weather. They’re based on statistics, which are mutable, manipulable, subject to interpretation, and often agenda-driven, particularly in matters like this one. You can pick your demographic authority or cherry pick conclusions; I can pick mine and make mine.

Apart from that, given either the secular or religious basis for maintaining a Jewish state in Israel, these demographic arguments are beside the point. Israelis driven by fear of being overwhelmed by a Muslim majority would, rationally, just move somewhere else. Yet Israelis don’t seem to be doing that in significant numbers, suggesting that their nationalism and/or faith are stronger motivators for them. They would be motivated to drive demographics in their favor, have faith that the demographics will inevitably become so, or are irrelevant. They wouldn’t surrender to them, in any case. Those driven by faith are particularly motivated, furthermore, and they’re the ones cranking out the babies in large numbers.

[gandalftb]

I generally agree on projections. However, 25 years+ of recorded birth and death records are reality. That’s what I started from, Israel’s own public records and stats as compiled by Israeli government employees.

No projections at all, just who died and who was born. Projecting that same 25 year human behavior another 5 or 10 years out is reasonable.

My entire point of all this demographic analysis is that the stats support a need for political reconciliation, soon, before Jews find themselves a minority or a bare majority in their own land.

Jewish settlement expansion into the West Bank is smaller than the Arab population expansion inside Israel. The Jews are losing ground every day.

The Jews aren’t going to leave and they are unwilling to accommodate, politically, the neighbors they are being overwhelmed by.

The Jewish political position is not sustainable on the track they are on.

Why don’t Jews produce bigger families? They are barely at the replacement level at 2.69 births per woman. Perhaps Jewish parents don’t want bring kids into their world of fear and conflict?

[gandalftb]

Let me restate this:

http://www1.cbs.gov.il/reader/shnaton/shnatone_new.htm?CYear=2010&Vol=61&CSubject=2

Go to the spreadsheet: “Population, by Religion” 2.2, click on the Excel symbol, there are two pages of compiled birth and death records by religion since 1979.

Get out your calculator like I did and see the reality of Israeli demographics for the last 25 years+.

No projections offered, just a count of who died and who was born, all added up, compiled by Jewish Israeli government employees.

Make up your own minds. Ask yourself what would stop the trend of Arab population outpacing that of Jews, and how is Israeli politics changing or going to have to change?

Remember, Israel is a democracy, one man, one vote. The Knesset is a pluralist, coalition government. A 30%+ voting bloc of Muslims is a coming reality.

[M. Thatcher]

Clearly, you haven’t been paying attention. At all

[Yehuda]

“research was not based on figures released by the Palestinian Authority”

Because we should always take as fact anything coming from a “palestinian authrotiy” that (a) has already stated any new palie state will not allow ANY JEWS and (b) has sentenced to DEATH arabs who sell land to the Jews.

“You have no idea what my beliefs are other than the peace of DEAD JEWS and the reconciliation that ISLAM RULES.

Forget you, schmandolf.

” Look at the vicious insults you offer and its evident what your beliefs are.....hatred.”

Yes, I am proud of my hatred of anus-lickers and enablers of the worldwide islamic plan to destroy Israel and America and the Judeo-Christian West.

I hope you have a nice, dotted-line neck tattoo to make it swift and easy, once your islamic friends find out you are incompetent and embarrassing, and they give you the Daniel Pearl necklace you will have so ironically earned.

[Yehuda]

“I and a growing number of Americans are tired of being a punching bag for nut-case jihadists because they see Israel hiding behind us.”

You’re such a limp-wristed jackass, you can’t even see that if Israel were wiped off the map tomorrow (with the help of scum like you and Obama), your jihadist friends would still be coming for the U.S..

And they would have your address from all the money and emails you send them in support.

Israel isn’t hiding behind America, America led by obama and encouraged by jackasses like you, is AIDING THE JIHADISTS.

“Here’s a simple task for you Yehuda, get the Knesset to pass a law making it illegal for any Israeli business to hire aliens. That would stop 95,000 non-Israeli Palestinians from entering Israel every day to go to work.”

First of all, ahole, I was born here and live here in the U.S.

Second of all, how would your arab friends whom you like so much get any work?

“They’re good enough to work for you. Come on Yehuda, your bigotry is showing.”

Damned right I am bigoted - against islam, and against morons like you who lick the koranus thinking you’ll get a pass if you help them against Jews.

Scum like you are worse for America than for Israel. Scum like you helped the jihadis in the past. Traitors.

[rightwingcrazy]

“I generally agree on projections. However, 25 years+ of recorded birth and death records are reality. That’s what I started from, Israel’s own public records and stats as compiled by Israeli government employees.”

...and then you made your own projection, based on your own assumptions. You pass from the acceptable to the dubious.

Based on a document from the source you cite:
http://www1.cbs.gov.il/reader/shnaton/templ_shnaton_e.html?num_tab=st02_26&CYear=2010

it looks to me like there is a projection of a rise of “Arabs” (presumably including all Muslims, but also non-Muslim Arabs) from about 20% in 2010 to less than 25% in 2030. Hardly earth-shattering, and based on whatever assumptions the compilers made in their extrapolation from the same numbers that you cite.

Regarding the birthrate of Jews there, as I already mentioned, the religious ones are reproducing at a mighty pace. The secular ones are not as much. Collectively they are still outpacing every developed country in the world, and Saudi Arabia and Iran to boot. The Israeli birthrate, based on the CIA reference that I cited, is hardly lower than the West Bank birthrate. The latter has also been dropping precipitously in the past 20 years, as has the birthrates in other Arab and Muslim nations in the Middle East.

[MeganC]

“So what do you intend to do about all the illegals in the American southwest? That was Mexican territory in the past.”

According to that logic we should give it back to Spain.

[MeganC]

You should Google both ‘Aztlan’ and ‘La Voz de Aztlan’ and find out just what the Mexican colonists have in mind for the US Southwest.

[gandalftb]

“Clearly, you haven’t been paying attention. At all”

Okay, to what? Post a source.

[gandalftb]

This is a thread about Israeli/Palestinian demographics. If you want to talk about Mexican/US demographics, post an article.

[gandalftb]

6 names called and one insult in one post, that might be a record for you.

Take you insulting hatred some where else.

This forum is for spirited but polite conversation. The goal is to enlighten each other or accept the thoughts of others without threat or intimidation.

[MeganC]

You brought it up in post #28 and I was just responding. If you do not want to have sidebar discussions then don’t start one or participate in one. But trying to shut down a sidebar when it doesn’t go the way you wanted it to is rather trite.

[gandalftb]

I’m not projecting or assuming anything, all I’m saying is that population facts of what has been for 25+ years is likely to continue.

What new social or political forces could change what has happened in Israel for the last 25 years?

I don’t agree with any projection beyond 10 years, they project out 20 and I agree with you that is a stretch.

Your CIA reference states that Israel’s birthrate is lower (2.67) than the West Bank (2.98). ??

[ROCKLOBSTER]

The Knesset is already 13% Muslim. Without annexing, Israel will be a majority Muslim in about 22 years.

Then Israel needs to act quickly to pass some laws that makes it illegal to be a citizen or member of the goverment if you're a Nazi..er, I mean moslem.

[rightwingcrazy]

“I’m not projecting or assuming anything, all I’m saying is that population facts of what has been for 25+ years is likely to continue.”

“Likely to continue” is a linear projection. Given changing birthrates, such a projection is likely to be off. It’s a conclusion, in any case, not a fact.

“What new social or political forces could change what has happened in Israel for the last 25 years?”

Immigration rates could go up or down, as could birthrates. They have been, and likely will continue to.

“I don’t agree with any projection beyond 10 years, they project out 20 and I agree with you that is a stretch.”

Ten years does seem safe, but the change then seen is modest, not a game-changer. I suspect that 10 years from now, there will be a larger percentage of Arabs, but the Jews will be more religious and conservative. Assuming that the politics of both these groups will be the same, the country would become more polarized.

“Your CIA reference states that Israel’s birthrate is lower (2.67) than the West Bank (2.98). ??”

I was pointing out that the rates are not far apart anymore. In 1990, the West Bank birthrate reportedly averaged over 6 per mother. It’s dropped by more than 50% in 20 years. It behooves one to ask why, and whether that trend is going to continue.

[gandalftb]

Right now Israel is focused on external instability, building fences and hardening themselves. I agree on the increased polarization, it’s coming.

The current stalemate on resolving borders we be broken if Israel waits long enough and change comes from within by an increasing Moslem %.

I remember posting several years ago and there were only 8 Knesset Muslim members and now there are 13.

Birth rates almost always drop with improved health care. Families figure out that when the kids are all living to 18, we don’t need to have more than 3-4.

[Yehuda]

Your lies and propaganda reveal that you hate America, you hate Jews, you love islam, and the communists who support it.

“Spirit” this:

I AM PROUD TO SAY I HATE YOUR GUTS.