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Queen to Unveil WWII Monument in London: Germans Grudgingly Accept Bomber Memorial
Der Spiegel ^ | 06/25/2012 | David Crossland in Berlin

Posted on 06/25/2012 2:55:04 PM PDT by Olog-hai

The planned unveiling in London of a memorial to the 55,573 Royal Air Force Bomber Command airmen killed in World War II has sparked muted criticism in Germany, where many regard the Allied air raids that destroyed entire cities and killed over 500,000 civilians as unjustified and criminal.

Helma Orosz, the mayor of Dresden, which was devastated in an Allied attack in February 1945, criticized the plans for the monument when they first became public in 2010, and spoke to London Mayor Boris Johnson about it.

"The planned memorial triggered astonishment in Dresden and was judged critically by us in diplomatic terms," she told SPIEGEL ONLINE. "I am pleased that this exchange of views led to the monument now featuring an inscription commemorating the victims of the bombing war. The objections many people in Germany had to such a memorial have been taken seriously and I welcome this very much. It's a further gesture of reconciliation between Britain and Germany." …

The bombing raids were a response to German attacks on British cities and were stepped up massively in the summer of 1944 after the D-Day landings. Their aim was to destroy Germany's military machinery and to crush public morale.

Many Germans believe that Dresden, where up to 25,000 people were killed in the Feb. 13 raid that caused a firestorm, symbolizes the ruthlessness and pointlessness of a bombing campaign that failed to break their spirit or bring their industry to its knees. …

(Excerpt) Read more at spiegel.de ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Germany; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: accept; bombardment; bomber; germans; grudgingly; london; memorial; monument; queen; raf; unveil; wwii
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1 posted on 06/25/2012 2:55:15 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai

Okay, but it’s just not the same since Freddie Mercury died.


2 posted on 06/25/2012 2:58:22 PM PDT by x
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To: Olog-hai

Cry me a tear Germany.


3 posted on 06/25/2012 3:00:11 PM PDT by dis.kevin (Dry white toast)
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To: Olog-hai

Can you say Chutzpah? I suppose not, given that there are no Yiddish speaking Jews in Germany anymore....


4 posted on 06/25/2012 3:01:16 PM PDT by Amberdawn
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To: Olog-hai
Helma Orosz, the mayor of Dresden, which was devastated in an Allied attack in February 1945, criticized the plans for the monument...

It's not like the monument is in your city, Helma. Perhaps Helma could engage in come constructive criticism, like putting a monument to the victims in her own city. The inscription could read, "Don't start something you can't finish."

5 posted on 06/25/2012 3:01:16 PM PDT by randog (Tap into America!)
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To: Olog-hai

That’s the German perspective. Now lets ask the folks in London and Coventry what they think about it.


6 posted on 06/25/2012 3:01:16 PM PDT by pfflier
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To: Olog-hai
The bombing raids were a response to German attacks on British cities ...

"We didn't start the fire"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a2SS0zqmzk

7 posted on 06/25/2012 3:01:27 PM PDT by TurboZamboni (Looting the future to bribe the present)
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To: x

LOL, nice.


8 posted on 06/25/2012 3:03:08 PM PDT by agere_contra
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To: Olog-hai

winners write the rule and the history books.


9 posted on 06/25/2012 3:03:30 PM PDT by Perdogg
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To: Olog-hai

Rotterdam

Warsaw

Coventry

So why should I shed any tears over Dresden.

10 posted on 06/25/2012 3:03:53 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: Olog-hai

Yeah, because all Hitler really wanted was a big hug.


11 posted on 06/25/2012 3:04:21 PM PDT by PGR88
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To: Olog-hai
"The bombing raids were a response to German attacks on British cities and were stepped up massively in the summer of 1944 after the D-Day landings. Their aim was to destroy Germany's military machinery and to crush public morale."

It's in there...does the complaining German not have a clue about how the war played out and why it was necessary to bomb German cities? Their dear leader was ready to let every German die at the end because he felt that they had let HIM down. Had they cleaned up their own mess there wouldn't have been a need to bomb...anybody.

12 posted on 06/25/2012 3:05:01 PM PDT by gorush (History repeats itself because human nature is static)
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To: TurboZamboni

Elder Herr: Will you stop talking about the war?
Basil: Me! You started it!
Elder Herr: We did not start it!
Basil: Yes you did — you invaded Poland.


13 posted on 06/25/2012 3:06:18 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: Olog-hai

“The planned unveiling in London of a memorial to the 55,573 Royal Air Force Bomber Command airmen killed in World War II has sparked muted criticism in Germany, where many regard the Allied air raids that destroyed entire cities and killed over 500,000 civilians as unjustified and criminal.”

Oh? And???

Dont start s*it if you aren’t prepared to get a severe beat down.


14 posted on 06/25/2012 3:06:28 PM PDT by VanDeKoik
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To: Olog-hai
The planned memorial triggered astonishment in Dresden and was judged critically by us in diplomatic terms, she told SPIEGEL ONLINE.

I am pleased that this exchange of views led to the monument now featuring an inscription commemorating the victims of the bombing war. The objections many people in Germany had to such a memorial have been taken seriously and I welcome this very much. It's a further gesture of reconciliation between Britain and Germany.

Unfricken believable. British actions were a reaction to the bombing of London. Now the bombers of London dictate the memorial's aspects.

Who won that war anyway?

This memorial was supposed to honor the lost crews of the bombers. Now it places those lost crews on a part with the Nazis.

This makes me furious, and I'm not even British.

15 posted on 06/25/2012 3:07:07 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (Remove all Democrats from the Republican party, and we won't have much Left, just a lot of Right.)
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To: Olog-hai

16 posted on 06/25/2012 3:07:31 PM PDT by VeniVidiVici (Congrats to Ted Kennedy! He's been sober for two years now!!)
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To: Olog-hai

Put a statue of Arthur Harris in downtown Dresden, with the inscription: LECTOR SI MONUMENTUM REQUIRIS CIRCUMSPICE. “Reader, if you seek his monument, look around.”


17 posted on 06/25/2012 3:08:11 PM PDT by RichInOC (No! BAD Rich! (What'd I say?))
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To: Olog-hai

You ever notice how everyone is supposed to be indignent that the Allies smashed the Axis and that the US nuked Japan. I got to thinking...just who started WWII...I suppose the Huns and the Nips thought that they should be given a free pass once they shot that first round.


18 posted on 06/25/2012 3:08:34 PM PDT by Meadow Muffin
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To: DoughtyOne

The day is coming, when the only things they’ll teach kids about WWII in school will be the Internment of Japanese civilians and Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Dresden, and how bad we were to do such things.


19 posted on 06/25/2012 3:09:31 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: Olog-hai

Sounds like a bully crying about a broken nose.


20 posted on 06/25/2012 3:10:15 PM PDT by pennyfarmer (Even a RINO will chew its foot off when caught in a trap.)
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To: Olog-hai

There is a small, Allied war cemetery not far from the Olympic stadium in Berlin. Went there once with the (ex)wife. Vast majority of the graves seemed to be allied air crews. The stones listed the unit and the names of the crew. The crew of one bomber had someone with my last name AND my wife’s maiden name. It was kind of spooky.


21 posted on 06/25/2012 3:12:24 PM PDT by VeniVidiVici (Congrats to Ted Kennedy! He's been sober for two years now!!)
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To: dfwgator

I guess cannibalism won’t be mentioned huh. There’s a new book coming out soon, and it touches on what Japanese troops did during the war. One of the claims is that in certain regions humans of specific nationality were used more or less as cattle. If it’s revealed to be true, that’s going to be a real eye opener.


22 posted on 06/25/2012 3:14:56 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (Remove all Democrats from the Republican party, and we won't have much Left, just a lot of Right.)
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To: Olog-hai
Tough crap Germans. We should have used a nuke to end it sooner.
23 posted on 06/25/2012 3:16:07 PM PDT by HereInTheHeartland ("The writing is on the wall - Unions are screwed. reformist2 10:04 PM #27")
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To: Olog-hai
To the citizens of Dresden during World War 2 as well as those of today, I say,
TOUGH SH!T,
cry me a river.
Commander Harris of the British Royal Air Force is one of the greatest heroes of the war.
24 posted on 06/25/2012 3:17:59 PM PDT by lbryce (BHO-"Now, I am become Death, the Destroyer of Worlds" by way of Oppenheimer at Trinity, NM)
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To: Olog-hai

First a flagpole and now Germany wants to dictate what kind of memorial the Queen of England should put on her land. I can’t imagine Edward III is resting peacefully.


25 posted on 06/25/2012 3:18:13 PM PDT by wolfman23601
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To: pfflier

London and Coventry are in no sense comparable to the systematic terror bombing unleashed on German civilian populations. Yeah, they started it. So what.


26 posted on 06/25/2012 3:19:03 PM PDT by Romulus (The Traditional Latin Mass is the real Youth Mass)
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To: Olog-hai
Hmm. An entire German civilian population was 'conveniently' unaware of the death camps operating just down the road from them. (Can you say 'duplicity'? I knew that you could.)

And now Germany, in its haste to remove itself as far as possible from its hideous crimes (while never completely answering the question of how an entire nation could allow such a monstrous machine to function so efficiently) is crying foul over a monument commemorating a group of young men who gave their lives trying to shield the free world from that hellish regime.

How do you say "Shut your knackwurst hole" in German?

27 posted on 06/25/2012 3:19:27 PM PDT by 60Gunner (Eternal vigilance or eternal rest. Make your choice.)
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To: gorush

Herr Goebbels asked for “Totaler Krieg” and he got it, in spades.


28 posted on 06/25/2012 3:20:10 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: randog; All

Take a look at the “estimated” civilian death figures. It’s been the neo-Nazis (including the NDP) that have pushed that figure as high as 500,000 (back during the war, the Nazi Party published the false figure of 200,000)—but Dresden city records estimated 25,000 civilian deaths at the time, and those have been corroborated by more reliable authorities.


29 posted on 06/25/2012 3:20:58 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai

Speaking as the son of a man who dug bodies out of the rubble of the Blitz, and later in the war flew fighter escort for a few of the thousand-bomber raids, I’d like to invite the Krauts to kiss my @$$.


30 posted on 06/25/2012 3:20:58 PM PDT by ccmay (Too much Law; not enough Order.)
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To: Romulus
London and Coventry are in no sense comparable to the systematic terror bombing unleashed on German civilian populations.

They virtually reduced Warsaw to nothing but ashes. War is Hell, don't start them.

31 posted on 06/25/2012 3:22:19 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: Olog-hai

You started it. You lost. End of story.


32 posted on 06/25/2012 3:23:02 PM PDT by tumblindice (Sic Semper Tyrannis)
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To: Olog-hai

Part of the reason for the rise of Hitler, was due to the fact that Germany itself, was largely untouched by the First World War, this made it viable for the “stabbed in the back” theory to gain traction amongst the German People....the Allies were not going to make that same mistake again, they made sure the German people would feel pain this time around, to make sure another Hitler would never rise from their midst.


33 posted on 06/25/2012 3:26:04 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: Romulus
London and Coventry are in no sense comparable to the systematic terror bombing unleashed on German civilian populations.

The only reason Germany didn't burn London and every English city to the ground was the lack of ability not some sense of restraint.

In addition to being morally wrong to start the war, they were tactically idiotic in that they didn't have the strength to win it.

34 posted on 06/25/2012 3:29:11 PM PDT by dead (I've got my eye out for Mullah Omar.)
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To: dfwgator

You forgot the Tuskeegee Airmen. While we all commend their heroic service while facing unbelievable discrimination at home, their story gets told more now than the raising of the flag on Mt. Suribachi.


35 posted on 06/25/2012 3:30:35 PM PDT by Lou Budvis (FUBO .... Since 2008)
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To: Olog-hai

I had a grandfather (unfortunately no longer with us) who flew the Dresden bombing mission...he refused to talk about it afterward, even many years after the fact.


36 posted on 06/25/2012 3:30:41 PM PDT by Edward Teach
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To: dead

They intentionally starved the entire city of Leningrad during the seige (over 900 days).....I don’t care if they were Communists, any regime that did what they did to that one city alone, deserved everything they got.


37 posted on 06/25/2012 3:30:41 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: x

I swear, when I read the word “Queen” in the headline I immediately thought of Freddie Mercury. When I read your comment, I about choked on my coffee. Thanks x, I needed to laugh today. Take care.


38 posted on 06/25/2012 3:30:41 PM PDT by nicksaunt
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To: Romulus

How are they “not comparable”?

Because the Nazis only had enough aircraft to concentrate on those two areas?

Not as if the Nazis wouldn’t have put up a thousand plane raid if they could have. A good analogy is the terrorists on 9/11. If they could have got their hands on a nuclear weapon, they would have used it. To argue otherwise is to support the thought process of “We wanted to kill some people, but only a limited number like 20.000. If we had wanted to kill 50,000, we thought that would have been too many.”

You see, the Nazis already showed us what they would do if they had the opportunity, Rotterdam, Coventry, London. They just didn’t have the resources, thank God for that.

When your enemy puts aside the rules of civility and resorts to unrestricted warfare, you do as well.

I would say that is “so what”. When someone starts a fight, they better finish it. WE finished it, not those pieces of crap who started it. Then, we get people who whine “Ooooohhh...the winners write the history. We were just as bad and evil as the Nazis.”


39 posted on 06/25/2012 3:37:59 PM PDT by rlmorel ("The safest road to Hell is the gradual one." Screwtape (C.S. Lewis))
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To: Olog-hai

I lived with the results of that war with my father having been an Army combat veteran of WWII. Shell shocked all to h*ll all his life after the war; fought in N. Africa, Sicily, Italy, and Germany - they barreled up through Italy as fast as they could go, fighting ruthless Panzer divisions much of the way, into Germany, into Berlin about half an hour after Adolph committed suicide. - Germans are either at your throat or at your feet, neither of which are relationships I want. - So, they can kiss my you know what.


40 posted on 06/25/2012 3:41:59 PM PDT by Twinkie (Isaiah 53)
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To: Olog-hai

Very appropriate:

The German air controllers at Frankfurt Airport are renowned as a short-tempered lot. They not only expect one to know one’s gate parking location, but how to get there without any assistance from them. So it was with some amusement that we (a Pan Am 747) listened to the following exchange between Frankfurt ground control and a British Airways 747, call sign Speedbird 206.

Speedbird 206: ” Frankfurt , Speedbird 206 clear of active runway.”

Ground: “Speedbird 206. Taxi to gate Alpha One-Seven.”

The BA 747 pulled onto the main taxiway and slowed to a stop.

Ground: “Speedbird, do you not know where you are going?”

Speedbird 206: “Stand by, Ground, I’m looking up our gate location now.”

Ground (with quite arrogant impatience): “Speedbird 206, have you not been to Frankfurt before?”

Speedbird 206 (coolly): “Yes, twice in 1944, but it was dark, — and I didn’t land.


41 posted on 06/25/2012 3:43:32 PM PDT by tanknetter
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To: tanknetter

Und another:

To Kenneth Clarke, who said, “Isn’t it terrible about losing to the Germans at our national sport?” when England lost to Germany in the 1990 World Cup Semifinal:

“I shouldn’t worry too much; we’ve beaten them twice this century at theirs.” —Margaret Thatcher


42 posted on 06/25/2012 3:48:32 PM PDT by tanknetter
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To: Olog-hai

As an immigrant from Germany, with US and German parents, I am embarassed that Dresden and its leaders are acting this way

Remember that this is the former East Germany, and, even w re-unification, the Allies were not as respected as much as in the West. First it was Nazis, then Commies, for the Ostis

Still no excuse to whine about this British Memorial...esp since there are memorials all over Europe commenmorating Allied victories over Germany


43 posted on 06/25/2012 3:50:58 PM PDT by SeminoleCounty (When I said "close the borders", I did not mean the bookstore chain)
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To: 60Gunner

“How do you say “Shut your knackwurst hole” in German?”

Schliessen Sie Ihr Knackwurst-Loch!


44 posted on 06/25/2012 3:51:16 PM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: rlmorel

“The appalling thing about fascism is that you’ve got to use fascist methods to get rid of it.” - It Happened Here (excellent movie about a fictional Nazi occupation of England)


45 posted on 06/25/2012 3:51:29 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: Olog-hai
I'm not surprised by the German reaction. I was surprised to learn how the British bomber crews were treated by their own countrymen, particularly Churchill.

RAF Bomber crews were some of the bravest of the brave and their contribution was totally overlooked (at least in the UK). They lost over 50,000 men (over 40% of their crews were KIA).

The Germans could have stopped the bombings at any time by surrendering.

46 posted on 06/25/2012 3:52:23 PM PDT by Flag_This (Real presidents don't bow.)
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To: Jack Hydrazine
I thought that translated to, "There is sauerkraut in my lederhosen."

I know a little German....he's sitting over there.


47 posted on 06/25/2012 3:54:12 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: dfwgator

Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.


48 posted on 06/25/2012 3:54:44 PM PDT by cayuga (The next Crusade will be a war of annihilation.)
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To: Olog-hai

THE WORLD TURNED UPSIDE-DOWN.


49 posted on 06/25/2012 3:55:41 PM PDT by cld51860 (Oderint dum metuant)
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To: Olog-hai

It sounds like the Germans need a refresher course in history. They started the war, they lost the war, they should live with it.


50 posted on 06/25/2012 3:57:16 PM PDT by TexasRepublic (Socialism is the gospel of envy and the religion of thieves)
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