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Loggers: Forest Service policies thwart logging
ap ^ | June 14, 2012 | BEN NEARY

Posted on 06/14/2012 5:47:20 PM PDT by george76

As crews continue to face off against a fast-moving wildfire in northern Colorado, some in the timber industry say the area's fire danger has been heightened by U.S. Forest Service policies and an economy that discourages them from harvesting millions of acres of dead trees that stand ready to burn.

The High Park Fire burned has about 80 square miles west of Fort Collins, Colo. It is 15 to 20 percent contained but has been active on its west flank, where there are many beetle-killed trees... As bad as the fire has been, timber experts say the forests of northern Colorado and southern Wyoming stand primed for more devastating burns.

Wyoming State Forester Bill Crapser said poor forest conditions in that area have increased fire danger. "We do have a real unhealthy forest situation out there," Crapser said. "We have too many trees per acre ... and we need to look at ways to thin some of those forests out."

(Excerpt) Read more at ktvu.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Editorial; Extended News; Government; News/Current Events; US: Colorado; US: Idaho; US: New Mexico; US: Utah; US: Wyoming
KEYWORDS: agenda21; alf; ar; blm; fires; forestservice; loggers; logging; unagenda21; usfs; wildlandfires

1 posted on 06/14/2012 5:47:26 PM PDT by george76
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To: jazusamo; Flycatcher; MileHi; LucyT; dynachrome; beaversmom

too many trees per acre , closed historical dirt roads that could be used to fight the massive fires faster and safer, government weenies who love endless studies, eco lawyers who get paid large fees, and


2 posted on 06/14/2012 5:53:49 PM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76

Roadless areas. Yea, this is your forest now stay the hell out. Like around the Green Horn west of Pueblo where they have been closing of roads that have been there a long time. Same around Grand County.


3 posted on 06/14/2012 5:59:29 PM PDT by MileHi ( "It's coming down to patriots vs the politicians." - ovrtaxt)
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To: george76

Trees just burning up, doing no one any good. Homes destroyed, firefighters killed, millions of dollars burned up along with it all.

Forest policy has ruined our forests, nature has been thwarted and now nature is fighting back.

We’ve known this was going to happen for 20 years but the environmentalists won the PC war and now taxpayers are paying for their self-righteous mistakes. It isn’t over, not by a long shot, there are a few out there that haven’t burned yet and they will sometime or another.

What a waste....


4 posted on 06/14/2012 6:06:43 PM PDT by tiki
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To: george76

I used to log on the Idaho side of the divide back in the ‘70’s. The DNR/logger relationship has always been adversarial.


5 posted on 06/14/2012 6:23:34 PM PDT by gorush (History repeats itself because human nature is static)
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To: tiki
What a waste....

Well said.

In their effort to erase mankind from the natural environment, the environmentalists always end up destroying that which they claim to worship: the fauna and flora.

I don't know if they're deluded, misguided, misinformed, or unabashedly evil, but the results of their policies only end in one way: Destruction.

What a waste...

6 posted on 06/14/2012 6:24:23 PM PDT by Flycatcher (God speaks to us, through the supernal lightness of birds, in a special type of poetry.)
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To: george76

There ia a building coalition of retiree forest service management types, scientists, county government, wildfire specialists, timber interests that will be meeting in mid-July to strategize how to reverse the insane trend of re-wilding, let it burn, single species management, EAJA etc.

The House Natural Resources Committee has been doing a good job with public hearings on the topic. They have been thwarted by the Senate. Nothing can get through them and the Administration’s policies are getting worse and worse.

The extreme environmentalists are killing our Forests and destroying rural counties. http://users.sisqtel.net/armstrng/


7 posted on 06/14/2012 6:47:55 PM PDT by marsh2
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To: george76

Name a single republican that has tried to change the Forest sErvice by WORKING to get a bill passed that would fix what is borken. We can study the entire world via NASA but not how to manage a forest. We have not had this many annual 10,000 acre forest fires year after year since the Sierra Club stopped logging in America’s forests.


8 posted on 06/14/2012 7:03:57 PM PDT by q_an_a (the more laws the less justice)
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To: george76

Name a single republican that has tried to change the Forest service by WORKING to get a bill passed that would fix what is broken. We can study the entire world via NASA but not how to manage a forest. We have not had this many annual 10,000 acre forest fires year after year since the Sierra Club stopped logging in America’s forests.


9 posted on 06/14/2012 7:04:24 PM PDT by q_an_a (the more laws the less justice)
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To: george76
We all knew these fires were coming because of the Forest Service and enviro-nazis, the FS hasn't been doing their job of managing our forests.

A major logging contractor on the Wyoming side of the forest likewise says he believes some Forest Service policies have hampered removal of dead trees.

That may be the understatement of the year. Like is mentioned in the article, the Forest Service should be paying logging companies to clear these trees instead of charging outrageous fees to use what few roads they leave open.

10 posted on 06/14/2012 7:10:28 PM PDT by jazusamo ("Intellect is not wisdom" -- Thomas Sowell)
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To: george76

The forecast is somewhat calm tonight but windy for the next few days on this part of the Range. I don’t know anything about the forecast for the high plains.


11 posted on 06/14/2012 7:18:33 PM PDT by familyop ("Wanna cigarette? You're never too young to start." --Deacon, "Waterworld")
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To: george76

We need to get rid of the forest service and auction off that land to the private sector.


12 posted on 06/14/2012 7:26:22 PM PDT by Woodsman27
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To: george76

Would seem that the US Forestry Service supports global warming through its policy of banning logging but encouraging those conditions that trigger uncontrolled wildfires. As one idiot in Yellowstone stated “although the forests were burned, the heat produced was sufficient to make the pine cones release their seeds ..... that’s how the forest would regenerate”. Now that’s as if the pine cones would not release there seeds without wildfires. As several experts have said, the greatest disaster to ever hit the National Parks and Forests has been the US Forestry and Park Services.


13 posted on 06/14/2012 8:26:23 PM PDT by RetiredTexasVet (There's a pill for just about everything ... except stupid!)
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To: RetiredTexasVet

“Now that’s as if the pine cones would not release there seeds without wildfires.”

Actually, that’s true. Much of Yellowstone is covered with lodgepole pine that have what are called serrotinous cones. They require the heat of a forest fire to open the cone and release the seed. During the big Yellowstone fires the pundits were moaning that the park had been ruined for generations - today most of it is green with re-growth. That doesn’t hold true for other species and it also assumes the fire isn’t so hot that it totally nukes the place.


14 posted on 06/14/2012 9:34:31 PM PDT by Old Forester
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To: familyop

A new wildfire near Lake George


15 posted on 06/14/2012 10:39:53 PM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: Old Forester
- today most of it is green with re-growth.

So what? Those forests consist of twenty year old trees on 8-24" centers ready to blow up again. The areas that did not burn actually look considerably better from the standpoint of understory species richness, soil, and drought stress.

The whole Park is an absolute mess from the standpoint of forest and game management. Whole fields of exotics dominate the northern landscape. 95% of the aspen are gone and they will not replace themselves. The elk were starving to death until the fire got the willow going again, but then they brought in wolves and now the elk are in even worse shape. The beaver have left. Soon, the wolves will turn on the bison, as was shown in Canada, it's only a matter of time. As soon as the wolves get hungry enough, they'll start eating each other until somebody does something.

Natural regulation does not work, because "nature" is not self-optimizing. The faulty assumption is that the historic apex predators (humans) are not part of the "natural" system. IOW, typical control freaks.

16 posted on 06/15/2012 12:01:57 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (The Slave Party: advancing indenture since 1787.)
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To: MileHi

Roadless areas. Yea, this is your forest now stay the hell out. Like around the Green Horn west of Pueblo where they have been closing of roads that have been there a long time. Same around Grand County.”””””

You can lay every bit of that nonsense at the feet of Bill “Blue Dress” Clinton and Bruce Babbitt.


17 posted on 06/15/2012 12:32:41 PM PDT by ridesthemiles
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To: ridesthemiles

Don’t forget Ken Saladbar


18 posted on 06/15/2012 12:39:48 PM PDT by MileHi ( "It's coming down to patriots vs the politicians." - ovrtaxt)
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To: george76

Forest Service management plans fail to protect the vital nutrients in the forest soil from dangerous fuel levels that lead to extremely hot fires that vaporize vital nutrients in the forest soil. If the vital nutrients necessary for healthy forests were protected, periodic thinning would be required to limit dangerous fuel levels. Destroying vital nutrients destroys habitat for all species of plants and animals.


19 posted on 06/15/2012 3:56:55 PM PDT by sforkjoe57 (How much longer must Americans be slaves to the stupidity of John Maynard Keynes?)
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To: Old Forester

I live in central Idaho. We have millions of acres of federal forest land in central Idaho that looks like it’s been used for a nuclear weapons test site. Millions of acres of bare, quartz lined rocks and bleached white snags. A perfect solar oven. Without protection for the vital nutrients in our forest’s soil, critical habitat for all plants, animals, and fish species is destroyed because of insane bureaucracy and obscene litigation.


20 posted on 06/15/2012 4:10:03 PM PDT by sforkjoe57 (How much longer must Americans be slaves to the stupidity of John Maynard Keynes?)
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To: sforkjoe57

Well said


21 posted on 06/15/2012 4:13:58 PM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76

Looks like the Lake George fire might be out. The wind died last night after all.


22 posted on 06/15/2012 9:10:17 PM PDT by familyop ("Wanna cigarette? You're never too young to start." --Deacon, "Waterworld")
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To: george76

by design, the leftest’s thrive in a world of scarcity.


23 posted on 06/15/2012 9:29:00 PM PDT by CPT Clay (Pick up your weapon and follow me.)
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To: sforkjoe57

“I live in central Idaho. We have millions of acres of federal forest land in central Idaho that looks like it’s been used for a nuclear weapons test site. Millions of acres of bare, quartz lined rocks and bleached white snags.”

I was curious as to just where those millions of acres are. I’ve flown over most of central Idaho and can’t place where much of that kind of ground is. There are some fair size burns back in the wilderness but nothing that would meet that description. What many people forget or don’t realize, or ignore is that most of that ground is wilderness for a reason - it’s not commercially useful for anything else. You would spend many times more than what the trees are worth trying to get them out.

The problems that have arisen from federal management of that ground are the result of decades of “every fire is bad and must be put out”. This has resulted in huge fuel loading that results in a catastrophic fire instead of a light under burn. This policy wasn’t the result of some bureaucratic whim, but was put in place after the devastating fires of 1910. People perceived that putting out fires was a great thing, little realizing the problems it would cause future generations.


24 posted on 06/15/2012 9:39:11 PM PDT by Old Forester
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To: george76
There's a new book that claims the Forest Service was severely weakened by feminist meddling in personnel policy.

A few acres my family owns was devastated by pine beetle. I can't wonder whether a few more male rangers and administrators might have been more pro-active about the problem.

We mock communism for its economic catastrophes, but what if these kind of dopey "equality" policies are helping create our catastrophes?

25 posted on 06/16/2012 12:04:31 AM PDT by Dumb_Ox
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To: Flycatcher
I don't know if they're deluded, misguided, misinformed, or unabashedly evil...

Ummm. Yes.

26 posted on 06/16/2012 1:53:44 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing)
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To: Old Forester

The upper Selway and most of the Salmon River drainage have been devasted by insane bureaucracy (wilderness designation) and obscene litigation. What doesn’t look like a nuclear weapons test site has been reduced to a massive weed patch because of ignorance and corruption. Allowing Forest Service management of semi-arid evergreen forests is a death nell for the nutrients in the soil of those forests. We should kick the Forest Service crooks out of Idaho and place our forests under the management of county conservation corps with the direction of the Natural Resource Conservation Service. The soil in privately owned and tribal owned forests is in good condition as a result of forest management policies taught by the NRCS. The same can’t be said for forests managed by Forest Service crooks and ignorant federal judges. The Forest Service crooks and greedy lawyers are more interested in making a lot of money from burning trees and vaporizing soil than protecting habitat for animals and fish.


27 posted on 06/16/2012 5:07:38 PM PDT by sforkjoe57 (How much longer must Americans be slaves to the stupidity of John Maynard Keynes?)
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To: Old Forester
and it also assumes the fire isn’t so hot that it totally nukes the place.

That is what we have going on in the the Oregon forests. We are saving the spotted owl to be eaten by the Bard owl and since they are not "managed", they all burn eventually and now the environmentalists and the Governor will not let us cut the burned trees. It has been said the CO2 output by a half million acre of rotting burnt trees is equivalent to an entire year of all the CO2 emissions of every car in the country!!

So when fire comes through these burnt out, not harvested high fuel areas it will put a thick glass sheen on the ground that will inhibit growth of anything for decades, thus the term "nukes the place."

28 posted on 06/17/2012 8:58:11 AM PDT by thirst4truth (www.Believer.com)
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To: Old Forester

Think very carefully about what you said. If only forest fires could cause pine cones from lodgepole pines to open up, I doubt seriously they would have spread over the West if they were solely and completely dependent upon wild fires. I’ve been to areas that haven’t had a forest fire in decades and they are covered with “young” lodgepole pines.


29 posted on 06/20/2012 7:36:56 PM PDT by RetiredTexasVet (There's a pill for just about everything ... except stupid!)
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To: RetiredTexasVet

This is quite true. Do a little research and you will find that there are two types of cones - sometimes on the same tree. Some open normally, some open after a fire. Lodgepole is very adept at seeding bare areas, whether from fire or other disturbance. After 90 - 120 years, they become susceptible to disease and insects and begin dieing off to make way for other longer lasting species (if they’re available). That’s why so many of the West’s lodgepole forests are in such terrible shape - they’re just doing what comes naturally. And, because many managers are reluctant to harvest the trees - for whatever reason - sooner or later they are going to do what else comes naturally - burn....


30 posted on 06/20/2012 8:28:43 PM PDT by Old Forester
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