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Electric Vehicles Fall Drastically Short of Obama's 1 Million Goal
CBS News ^ | Saturday, June 2, 2012 | Sharyl Attkisson

Posted on 06/02/2012 6:13:25 PM PDT by kristinn

The Obama administration invested $2.4 billion as part of its goal of putting one million electric vehicles on the road by the end of 2015. But that effort has, in part, stalled.

Nothing is more emblematic of the industry's troubles than the Fisker Karma. In 2010, Fisker got a $529-million taxpayer loan to build a luxury electric sports car.

But the government cut off the loan to Fisker after $193 million when Fisker failed to meet its ambitious sales and production goals. Then, a Consumer Reports test dealt the Karma another blow.

"It is low. It is sleek. It is sensuous," the Consumer Reports' video narrator says.

"It's also broken," the narrator adds as a clip of the Fisker Karma being towed on a flatbed airs.

Fisker blamed the car's lithium ion battery, which happened to be made by another government loan recipient, A123 Systems.

A123 got a $249-million taxpayer loan. This year's first-quarter losses totaled $125 million.

The industry's misfortunes have seriously undermined President Obama's goal.

"We can replace our dependence on oil with biofuels and become the first country to have a million electric vehicles on the road by 2015," Obama said in January 2011.

To get to one million, the White House pinned its hopes on 11 models of electric vehicles -- including the Karma. Our CBS News investigation found that six of the 11 -- Ford Focus, Ford Transit Connect, Fisker Nina/Atlantic, Tesla Model S, Tesla Roadster and Think City -- either haven't made their first delivery or are already out of business.

Others aren't even close to the government's 2015 projections. For example, 36,000 Fisker Karmas and 505,000 Chevy Volts were supposed to be made. But current projections slash the Karma's 2015 number in half to 18,000 and put the Volt at one-eighth of the...

(Excerpt) Read more at cbsnews.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: electriccars; obama
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1 posted on 06/02/2012 6:13:30 PM PDT by kristinn
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To: kristinn

Build a car that works, is practical, and that people want and it won’t matter how they are fueled.

OTOH, if the Supremes decide that FedGov can indeed mandate that we purchase a specific thing, then the electric car problem will be solved. We’ll have to buy one, or two.


2 posted on 06/02/2012 6:18:06 PM PDT by DBrow
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To: kristinn

Valerie Jarrett believe every word from Van Jones’s commie mouth, so it is no surprise that little barry puppet commie does what she commands and fails.


3 posted on 06/02/2012 6:18:46 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: kristinn

Oh, well. A billion here, and billion there, and pretty soon you tow them away on flatbeds and blame Republican obstructionists in congress.


4 posted on 06/02/2012 6:21:21 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: kristinn

Everything that Zero touches turns to ashes. The pattern should be obvious to any fool. He is going to have loooooooong coattails. November is going to be a Democrat bloodbath.


5 posted on 06/02/2012 6:23:24 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Government is the religion of the sociopath.)
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To: kristinn

unexpectently.


6 posted on 06/02/2012 6:23:36 PM PDT by Doogle (((USAF.68-73..8th TFW Ubon Thailand..never store a threat you should have eliminated)))
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To: kristinn

It seems that the administration has fallen much shorter of our goals.


7 posted on 06/02/2012 6:23:36 PM PDT by mountainlion (I am voting for Sarah after getting screwed again by the DC Thugs.)
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To: kristinn

I made a youtube on electric cars awhile back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqK1LVtbmTI


8 posted on 06/02/2012 6:31:01 PM PDT by quantim (Obama = #theoccupier on twitter.)
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To: kristinn

Bad Karma?


9 posted on 06/02/2012 6:33:01 PM PDT by The_Media_never_lie (The First Bystander must be removed!)
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To: kristinn

Bad Karma?


10 posted on 06/02/2012 6:33:14 PM PDT by The_Media_never_lie (The First Bystander must be removed!)
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To: kristinn

And our former socialist tramp governor Fuhrer Moleface Granholm really was in bed with A123. Union slobbing and all that.

She was run out of Michigan.


11 posted on 06/02/2012 6:34:36 PM PDT by quantim (Obama = #theoccupier on twitter.)
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To: mountainlion

Rich people can afford foolish dreams, but, when you have to share the wealth with a bunch of slackers, you can’t afford sh!t. ZerO is a victim of his own folly.


12 posted on 06/02/2012 6:34:36 PM PDT by depressed in 06 (6 November, 2012, the day our embarrassment is sent back to Kenya.)
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To: kristinn
The industry's misfortunes have seriously undermined President Obama's goal.

Right, Sharyl. Nothing to do with the fact the dogs really don't like the dog food they are being served.

13 posted on 06/02/2012 6:35:22 PM PDT by ProtectOurFreedom
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To: kristinn

Have they restarted production of the Volt???

It’s been very quiet if they have.


14 posted on 06/02/2012 6:41:51 PM PDT by CMailBag
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To: quantim

Pretty good. I subscribed as well.


15 posted on 06/02/2012 6:42:44 PM PDT by wally_bert (It's sheer elegance in its simplicity! - The Middleman)
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To: The_Media_never_lie

I had a used karma.

It belonged to a little old lady school teacher who was only responsible for her actions on weekends.


16 posted on 06/02/2012 6:45:08 PM PDT by Wordkraft (Remember who the Collaborators are.)
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To: kristinn
Fisker Karma:

"It is low. It is sleek. It is sensuous," the Consumer Reports' video narrator says.

The base price is also $102,000. Wonder why sales haven't skyrocketed?

Also the not so sexy Chevy Volt starts at $40,000 and to drive one off the lot is probably $45,000, but who's counting other than Obama and Government Motors?

17 posted on 06/02/2012 6:46:06 PM PDT by jazusamo ("Intellect is not wisdom" -- Thomas Sowell)
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To: quantim
She was run out of Michigan.

It looked to me like she couldn't get out fast enough.

Making a beeline for the hallowed halls of Berkeley.

Teaching America's one percenter 20-somethings to become blood sucking environmental lawyers.

18 posted on 06/02/2012 6:49:04 PM PDT by nascarnation
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To: CMailBag

http://idealab.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/04/gm-will-restart-chevy-volt-production-one-week-early-uaw-reveals.php


19 posted on 06/02/2012 6:51:03 PM PDT by nascarnation
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To: The_Media_never_lie

Karma’s a bitch.


20 posted on 06/02/2012 6:53:19 PM PDT by coloradan (The US has become a banana republic, except without the bananas - or the republic.)
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To: kristinn

What else could happen when you hand the keys to the US Treasury to a completely inexperienced yet arrogant egomaniac:

“I think I’m a better speech writer than my speech writers,” he reportedly told an aide in 2008. “I know more about policies on any particular issue than my policy directors. And I’ll tell you right now that I’m . . . a better political director than my political director.”

I’d be LMAO if it weren’t for that little fact that this is OUR money.

What a giant A-hole he is.


21 posted on 06/02/2012 6:54:48 PM PDT by Aria ( 2008 wasn't an election - it was a coup d'etat.)
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To: kristinn

Last week I saw a TV program...maybe on Natl.Geo? about
the GM hybrid, and how GM mandated that all be turned in for destruction. It seemed so unbelievable that they could, or would, do that.

I have not had or needed a car since I left the USA in 2004, but from what I could see, the hybrid looked like a pretty decent idea, unlike the totally electric car which seems like a joke.

My question...What is wrong with the hybrid, as long as you can switch to gas when out of juice?
The owners seemed to love the car.
What am I missing here?


22 posted on 06/02/2012 6:55:04 PM PDT by AlexW
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To: kristinn

THE TULIPOMANIA: An Investing Bubble
http://www.thetulipomania.com/


23 posted on 06/02/2012 7:01:46 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (Ich habe keinen Konig aber Gott)
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To: kristinn

CBS reported this?

Hunhh....


24 posted on 06/02/2012 7:22:25 PM PDT by hummingbird (Breitbart and Spartacus: here, there, everywhere.)
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To: quantim

Excellent video. Luckily, a new Five Year Plan is in the works to rescue these turds. Bob


25 posted on 06/02/2012 7:26:05 PM PDT by alstewartfan ("You were trying to chisel a perfect truth When the instrument broke in your hand." Al Stewart)
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To: kristinn

Obammy never was a very good businessman, come to think of it, he never was.. unless selling dope counts..


26 posted on 06/02/2012 7:37:06 PM PDT by NormsRevenge (Semper Fi)
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To: AlexW

The main problem with hybrids is that the cars could never survive long enough to save its owner enough gas to compensate for the exorbitant price. Bob


27 posted on 06/02/2012 7:37:07 PM PDT by alstewartfan ("You were trying to chisel a perfect truth When the instrument broke in your hand." Al Stewart)
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To: kristinn

Who wants to buy a car called the “Karma” anyway-a new agey faddish left-wing hipster p.o.s?


28 posted on 06/02/2012 7:38:10 PM PDT by JSDude1
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To: alstewartfan

“The main problem with hybrids is that the cars could never survive long enough to save its owner enough gas to compensate for the exorbitant price.”
______________________________________________

I never knew what the average cost or life was for a hybrid.
I guess you mean that they are not 100,000 mile cars.
Why did GM demand that all of them had to be returned to
them and be destroyed?

The program obviously had a pro hybrid slant, as all of the owners were soooo happy with them, and tried every way in the world to keep GM from taking them.
I do not know how GM could do that, unless there was some clause in the purchase contract which gave GM sole control over the car.


29 posted on 06/02/2012 8:02:04 PM PDT by AlexW
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To: kristinn

A dear friend had us out to his place for a bbq with his family. His stepson was a rather colorful character who babbled on about the virtues of solar panels and electric cars.

He changed the subject when I commented that most go about 40 miles on a charge while a gasoline powered subcompact goes about the same distance on a gallon of fuel.

Imagine how people would react if a gas pump took eight hours to pump one gallon of gasoline...


30 posted on 06/02/2012 8:07:59 PM PDT by Rides_A_Red_Horse
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To: AlexW

Last week I saw a TV program...maybe on Natl.Geo? about
the GM hybrid, and how GM mandated that all be turned in for destruction. It seemed so unbelievable that they could, or would, do that.


GM Hybrids were great, until they became self aware. Then they started sucking the souls out of unbaptized children.

GM’s PR department did an awesome job keeping it quiet.


31 posted on 06/02/2012 8:12:47 PM PDT by Rides_A_Red_Horse
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To: AlexW

There are many, many Toyota Prius hybrids with more than 100,000 miles on them. Getting 200,000 miles on them seems rare though.

Typical new price about $26K. Typical new price for a Corolla, by comparison, might be around $19,000.


32 posted on 06/02/2012 8:13:55 PM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: Cicero
Oh, well. A billion here, and billion there, and pretty soon you tow them away on flatbeds and blame Republican obstructionists in congress.

What they need to do is spend another billion on electric tow trucks.

33 posted on 06/02/2012 8:30:44 PM PDT by seowulf ("If you write a whole line of zeroes, it's still---nothing"...Kira Alexandrovna Argounova)
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To: kristinn

These people are ignorant about the (automobile, health care, electric generation, oil drilling, ...) industry and cause major failures when they illegally seize control of these sectors.


34 posted on 06/02/2012 8:43:05 PM PDT by gitmo ( If your theology doesn't become your biography it's useless.)
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To: Rides_A_Red_Horse

“GM Hybrids were great, until they became self aware. Then they started sucking the souls out of unbaptized children.
GM’s PR department did an awesome job keeping it quiet.”
__________________________________

God only knows what you are babbling about, and he is not talking.
Cocktail time does strange things to some people.


35 posted on 06/02/2012 9:15:47 PM PDT by AlexW
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To: AlexW

That’s a weird, sickening story, Alex, typical of the bizarre Obama regime. I didn’t mean to come off as an expert, but we roughly calculated that at approx. 30mpg, it would take our Prius-owning friend decades to recoup the many extra thousands that he spent for that car over a comparable gas-powered one. Blessings, Bob


36 posted on 06/02/2012 9:16:20 PM PDT by alstewartfan ("You were trying to chisel a perfect truth When the instrument broke in your hand." Al Stewart)
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To: jjotto; AlexW; alstewartfan
There are many, many Toyota Prius hybrids with more than 100,000 miles on them. Getting 200,000 miles on them seems rare though.

There aren't too many cars with 200,000 miles on the odometer. They are mechanical things; as they wear down their value drops but the cost of repair goes up. At some point it is just not worth it.

Modern hybrids are capable of extreme longevity. Also Google gives me this link:

Vancouver canada has replaced 80% of their taxis with hybrids. There are still 2007 Prius still running which have over 200,000 miles logged in. One Prius has 600,000 miles logged in and one hybrid battery replacement

Hybrids have the following advantages over traditional cars:

For that you pay with money. Hybrids cost a bit more than standard cars. It's your call what to buy. A hybrid, especially one made in Japan, can last a very long time. You can treat it as an improved, high-tech version of a traditional gas car - simply because hybrids run on gas. All the energy comes from gasoline, which means that you have plenty of that energy in the tank, and it only takes a few minutes at any corner to replenish it.

Pure EVs share some of these advantages. However the additional cost of a gas-electric hybrid is lower than the cost of a pure EV. Those numbers that are floating around, from $40K to $100K, are insane. I don't know too many people who would be eager to mortgage their home and buy such a car. Hybrids like Prius are within the typical price range, both new and used. You can buy a used Gen. II Prius today for maybe $12K - $14K. This is within reach of many car buyers. (Of course there is no help for those who only look for $500 jalopies.)

One day, when we have much more capable batteries, a pure EV will be just as practical as a gas car (or a gas-electric hybrid) of today. That day is in the future. We can't even figure out how to charge that EV with a huge power (8 MW) that we casually achieve at a gas station. Today if you buy a pure EV (or an EV-like hybrid, like Volt) you get an overpriced golf cart - and you can't even drive it at the golf course.

37 posted on 06/02/2012 9:29:23 PM PDT by Greysard
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To: AlexW
Last week I saw a TV program...maybe on Natl.Geo? about
the GM hybrid, and how GM mandated that all be turned in for destruction. It seemed so unbelievable that they could, or would, do that.

I have not had or needed a car since I left the USA in 2004, but from what I could see, the hybrid looked like a pretty decent idea, unlike the totally electric car which seems like a joke.

My question...What is wrong with the hybrid, as long as you can switch to gas when out of juice?
The owners seemed to love the car.
What am I missing here?


I believe you are talking about the GM Impact from 1996 -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

It was not a hybrid, it was an all-electric car.

38 posted on 06/02/2012 10:24:08 PM PDT by az_gila
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To: DBrow

He could have sold that million electric vehicles, if only he had offered up 30 to 45 thousand dollars in tax right-offs for each vehicle. $7,500.00? /s Pussy! LOL


39 posted on 06/02/2012 10:28:03 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (This space for rent...)
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To: Greysard

“Hybrids have the following advantages over traditional cars:”

The REAL problem...

Once out of warranty, the ONLY place they can still be serviced is the dealer. There is a real reason 75% of Hybrid buyers will not buy another one. The cost of ownership doesn’t justify the added costs at anything less than $6-7 gas.

Battery replacement is the real issue, and costs around $2,200. Without it, all you are buying is a 1.5L-1.8L under-powered compact car.

Braking issues related to the computer control for battery recharging have become a HUGE issue, as well. Other Computer Control problems seem to become huge issues on the Prius after they go out of warranty as well.


40 posted on 06/02/2012 10:51:22 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Election 2012: THE RAPTURE OF THE DEMOCRATS)
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To: az_gila

“I believe you are talking about the GM Impact from 1996 “
________________________________________

I now looked it up.
It was the EV1 electric car.
GM would not let owners keep them.


41 posted on 06/02/2012 11:00:22 PM PDT by AlexW
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To: Rides_A_Red_Horse
Imagine how people would react if a gas pump took eight hours to pump one gallon of gasoline...

Now that's a funny line. I almost wish someone would start bragging about electric cars to me now.

42 posted on 06/02/2012 11:02:09 PM PDT by TigersEye (Life is about choices. Your choices. Make good ones.)
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To: Cicero

oil powered flatbeds I add, if I may.


43 posted on 06/02/2012 11:19:30 PM PDT by KingNo155
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To: quantim
Bump!! lol brilliant
44 posted on 06/02/2012 11:25:49 PM PDT by KingNo155
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To: tcrlaf
Once out of warranty, the ONLY place they can still be serviced is the dealer.

That's the fate of all high-tech gadgets. Can anyone but Apple fix your iPhone, for example?

The reason is that we are moving toward (or are already with) proprietary technologies. I had to throw an LCD TV out that failed (ViewSonic) even though I have the skill to repair it... if only I had the parts and the technical documentation on how to do it. Most of the stuff out there comes with no such documentation, and once it fails your only resort is the manufacturer. As a simple proof, try to repair an LED alarm clock with burned out segments. Those LEDs are nearly custom made, in Asia, and they ship them here only in finished devices. [This is a real example; some older HP test equipment uses those LEDs and it's tough to find spare parts.]

The time of carburetor cars is long gone, chased away by many reasons, among which are government requirements on emissions. You are already not allowed to mess with parameters of the engine control unit in your car, even if you know what you are doing (about 100% of the population do not; those who do are the rounding error.)

But it must be said that Toyota has a nice program where you can either subscribe to access to all their technical information (for a yearly fee, if you are a garage) or you can buy access for 1 day for something like $10. Anyone can buy access for 24 hours and download as much as his Internet connection allows.

Battery replacement is the real issue, and costs around $2,200.

NiMH batteries for Prius and like hybrids, as practice shows, are very reliable. Barring random factory defects, they actually work for the guaranteed period of time.

You probably noticed that in my list I haven't really mentioned savings on fuel. This is because, just as you say, it is far from obvious if you save or lose money on that deal. We do not know if a war breaks out in Persian Gulf tomorrow and gas prices go through the roof; or perhaps Obama loses his programming and allows unlimited drilling and pipelines and all, crashing the oil prices. Guessing that is pointless, and so is investing money into such a thing. My list contains only tangible advantages that are real from the first day of owning the car. It is up to each person individually to tell if they justify the higher price of a hybrid.

I do not know when or if any computer control issues with hybrids will show up. But I am an engineer who works with exactly such computers (embedded systems) for a very long time, so I do not think that anything terrible can happen that can't be fixed by reflashing the controller. There is no magic in those devices; I make similar things for a living. An upgrade is nearly free; your cell phone was probably upgraded over the air by your cellular provider at least once and you may not even know about it.

45 posted on 06/02/2012 11:43:23 PM PDT by Greysard
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To: AlexW
GM would not let owners keep them.... unless you were the electric company. Where I live I saw a few EV1s around even after the Volt was supposedly on the road. They belonged to the Edison Company.
46 posted on 06/03/2012 2:42:54 AM PDT by NathanR
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To: AlexW
GM would not let owners keep them.... unless you were the electric company. Where I live I saw a few EV1s around even after the Volt was supposedly on the road. They belonged to the Edison Company.
47 posted on 06/03/2012 2:43:02 AM PDT by NathanR
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To: kristinn
Fisker blamed the car's lithium ion battery, which happened to be made by another government loan recipient, A123 Systems

A company that won't take the effort to absolutely ensure their debut demo isn't in perfect operating order before putting it in front of a camera, can't be trusted to build a car fit for sale.

48 posted on 06/03/2012 3:42:43 AM PDT by trebb ("If a man will not work, he should not eat" From 2 Thes 3)
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To: Greysard
I can see most of your points, but please explain this on

Starting at high RPM is good for the engine

High RPM, cold unlubricated start sounds like trouble to me.

I have no problem driving an electric car.
But range, re-energize times, price are deal killers.

49 posted on 06/03/2012 4:57:34 AM PDT by Vinnie (A)
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To: Vinnie
High RPM, cold unlubricated start sounds like trouble to me.

I'm not a specialist on engines, but here is what I believe to know. The RPM as such is not a problem for the engine as long as the oil pressure is present. But if you use the classical starter, it's too slow and the oil pressure hasn't built up yet. A classical engine starts without oil, but a hybrid's ICE starts at full oil pressure.

When you start a standard car the starter motor cannot spin the engine even to the idling speed; it can't spin it more than 10% of that speed. This means that you have very few ignitions per second - and accordingly low power output. That power output is supposed to accelerate the engine to the idle speed. This is hard to do if the engine is cold - or if it is very cold, as in winter. Starting at faster RPM gives you more power right off the bat.

Another reason is that as the classical engine is started it self-accelerates. There is no control over the process; it is unstable and it is self-governing. This results in an aggressive spin-up while the oil pressure (that is produced by the same engine) is still low. This is not helping. In a hybrid like Prius the engine speed is ramped up by the M/G, under control. Then the ignition is enabled and the engine starts running on its own... at the same speed! There are no jolts or anything. But that's not all. The car starts drawing power from the engine - and that is done at the same speed that the engine is currently operating. This is possible because of this complex electric CVT. As result the engine is started smoothly. This makes engine's life much easier.

There are other advantages. For example, a classical car has a moving gear that connects the starter engine. This engagement takes time, and when your battery gets low it starts failing first. A hybrid engine has a permanent connection to its "starter," and that motor is powerful enough to start anything in any weather, backed by the main traction battery.

By the way, Prius could start the engine at any speed, all the way down to zero RPM if that would be of any advantage. (They could even spin it backwards; that's a side effect of the reverse "gear.") But Toyota engineers picked the starting speed that is very close to the idle speed. I'm sure they know a bit more about cars than we both combined :-)

Or, for example, consider the electrical issues. The classical starter motor, however weak in comparison to the ICE, still presents a massive electrical load. When you start the car all lights dim. The battery is connected with thick cables, but that's not enough. There are resistances that you cannot remove (such as the internal resistance of the battery, which increases as the battery ages.) The 12V battery is an obsolete starting technology; it's with us only because it is legacy. No electrical engineer today would do it this way - a low voltage battery, thick copper cables, hundreds of amperes of current, a primitive DC brushed motor - you must be kidding. We have technology today to do whatever we want with our electric machines; a simplistic series machine is more than a century old, and it is not used pretty much anywhere else for many reasons (reason #1: contacts are bad for you.) Your computer has fans that use far more advanced motors, for example (they have electronic controllers, and integrated tachometers, they have no brushes and they are EMI-clean.)

As you can see, a gas-electric hybrid is nothing but a seriously improved classical car. However you can always go too far and invent a pure EV; that does not work yet because our technology hasn't progressed past burning of hydrocarbons. It's very hard to invent something that is as efficient as gasoline. A molecule of gasoline contains a lot of energy; no battery can match it so far. Probably a chemical battery cannot even exist that comes close; I'm not a chemist, but there are certain laws of nature that define how much energy you can store in a molecule. In my personal opinion we need to go past chemistry directly to nuclear physics to get an energy source that is comparable to a tank of gas. This is why I'm so skeptical about modern EVs (but not hybrids.) In my opinion, if a car costs far more than the average it must present very good reasons why the customer should go out and buy it. The more the cost difference is, the better arguments should the car have. Hybrids like Prius and Honda Insight and a few other are kind of there. Plenty of people buy them, even though Obama never sat in a Prius. However few people buy Volt and Leaf because for their sky-high prices those cars should fly. But they don't. They are less useful than a plain vanilla, beaten up, $2K Honda Accord because they can leave you stranded. That's the worst offense that any car can commit. Well, Volt will not leave you stranded because the car carries its own gas-driven generator :-) An EV and a little trailer to charge it :-)

50 posted on 06/03/2012 8:28:45 AM PDT by Greysard
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