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Exclusive: Senate probe finds little evidence of effective 'torture'
Reuters ^ | Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:44am EDT | Mark Hosenball

Posted on 04/27/2012 2:18:49 AM PDT by Olog-hai

A nearly three-year-long investigation by Senate Intelligence Committee Democrats is expected to find there is little evidence the harsh "enhanced interrogation techniques" the CIA used on high-value prisoners produced counter-terrorism breakthroughs.

People familiar with the inquiry said committee investigators, who have been poring over records from the administration of President George W. Bush, believe they do not substantiate claims by some Bush supporters that the harsh interrogations led to counter-terrorism coups.

The backers of such techniques, which include "water-boarding," sleep deprivation and other practices critics call torture, maintain they have led to the disruption of major terror plots and the capture of al Qaeda leaders.

One official said investigators found "no evidence" such enhanced interrogations played "any significant role" in the years-long intelligence operations which led to the discovery and killing of Osama bin Laden last May by U.S. Navy SEALs.

President Barack Obama and his aides have largely sought to avoid revisiting Bush administration controversies. But the debate over the effectiveness of enhanced interrogations, which human rights advocates condemn as torture, is resurfacing, in part thanks to a new book by a former top CIA official. …

(Excerpt) Read more at reuters.com ...


TOPICS: Breaking News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: bullstalin; cia; democrats; huntforbinladen; liberalagenda; lies; revisionisthistory; stalinisttactics; torture
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Yeahh right.
1 posted on 04/27/2012 2:19:06 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai

The Senate is wrong!


2 posted on 04/27/2012 2:35:54 AM PDT by rawhide
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To: Olog-hai

Democrat report! To be expected!


3 posted on 04/27/2012 2:36:49 AM PDT by rawhide
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To: Olog-hai

He was water boarded and thereafter he talked. But because he didn’t give up the courier while he was still wiping the water off his face, they dispute a “causal connection”.

I recall that KSM himself told them he could cooperate without feeling guilty because he was watdrboarded.


4 posted on 04/27/2012 2:49:21 AM PDT by Andrei Bulba
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To: Olog-hai

“Senate Intelligence Committee Democrats”

Putting the Oxy back in the Morons.


5 posted on 04/27/2012 3:08:14 AM PDT by JewishRighter (Anybody but Hussein)
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To: Olog-hai

Democrats have proven to us all they are the enemies of truth.

Waterboard them.


6 posted on 04/27/2012 3:34:05 AM PDT by rockinqsranch (Dems, Libs, Socialists, call 'em what you will, they ALL have fairies livin' in their trees.)
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“A nearly three-year-long investigation by Senate Intelligence Committee Democrats...”

Don’t need to read any further. There is no way the Dumb-ocrats could find any truth not within the sphere of their own preconceived notions in this subject. And, we’ve heard their pathetic arguments for years.


7 posted on 04/27/2012 3:49:40 AM PDT by PubliusMM (RKBA; a matter of fact, not opinion. 01-20-2013: Change we can look forward to.)
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To: Olog-hai

So, it worked.
I guess that’s why the Dhimmocrats are retreating as fast as possible.


8 posted on 04/27/2012 3:55:13 AM PDT by Flintlock (THE TRUTH: It's the new hate speech..)
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To: Olog-hai

I think we need to waterboard some, maybe most, in the Senate to find out what they know and when did they know it.
I suspect they won’t find anything.


9 posted on 04/27/2012 3:56:05 AM PDT by Leep (Enemy of the Statist)
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To: Olog-hai

Except when it came to getting information from detainees about Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti Bin Laden’t courier, they mean.


10 posted on 04/27/2012 4:20:14 AM PDT by corlorde (NH)
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To: Olog-hai

If torture doesn’t work, why has it been so popular over the years?


11 posted on 04/27/2012 4:33:53 AM PDT by jmcenanly ("The more corrupt the state, the more laws." Tacitus, Publius Cornelius)
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To: Olog-hai

12 posted on 04/27/2012 4:35:59 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (Ich habe keinen Konig aber Gott)
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To: Olog-hai

Who cares? The “war on terror” is over! /heavy sarcasm


13 posted on 04/27/2012 4:37:47 AM PDT by Bushbacker1 (I miss President Bush! 2012 - The End Of An Error! (Oathkeeper))
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To: jmcenanly

The history of torture is that it extracts the answer you want, not the correct answer. There are more effective, less distasteful methods.


14 posted on 04/27/2012 4:59:29 AM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: Olog-hai
A nearly three-year-long investigation by Senate Intelligence Committee Democrats is expected to find there is little evidence the harsh "enhanced interrogation techniques" the CIA used on high-value prisoners produced counter-terrorism breakthroughs.

Hmm, 'rats saying what a GOP President did was ineffective. Shocking! In intel, every little scrap of information matters. Of course there were no bombshell revelations during interrogations. This is the real world, not Hollywood.

...committee investigators, who have been poring over records from the administration of President George W. Bush, believe they do not substantiate claims by some Bush supporters that the harsh interrogations led to counter-terrorism coups.

Well, they can believe whatever they want. People believe all kinds of crazy stuff in the face of all evidence to the contrary. Were these "investigators" intel experts, or mere political hacks looking for anything to attack Bush and the GOP with? Bets anyone?

One official said investigators found "no evidence" such enhanced interrogations played "any significant role" in the years-long intelligence operations which led to the discovery and killing of Osama bin Laden last May by U.S. Navy SEALs.

No evidence of a "significant" role in one op. Carefully worded. I guess that depends on your definition of what would be significant. It also carefully sidesteps intel successes on all other operations. I doubt going after OBL was the only intel op we've had going on in theater the last few years.

President Barack Obama and his aides have largely sought to avoid revisiting Bush administration controversies.

Bwaa haa haa! So horrendously far from the truth it doesn't even merit a response. That should go under the Friday silliness thread here on FR.

15 posted on 04/27/2012 5:16:07 AM PDT by ThunderSleeps (Stop obama now! Stop the hussein - insane agenda!)
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To: Olog-hai
This is easily fixed. Just make it more effective.
16 posted on 04/27/2012 5:47:33 AM PDT by StAnDeliver (=)
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To: 1010RD

Tell it to Jack Bauer


17 posted on 04/27/2012 5:52:55 AM PDT by Tula Git
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To: Tula Git

You mean the mythical television character?


18 posted on 04/27/2012 6:02:42 AM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: Tula Git

I don’t think using a tv show is a solid basis for opinion.


19 posted on 04/27/2012 6:03:50 AM PDT by VaRepublican (I would propagate taglines but I don't know how. But bloggers do.)
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To: 1010RD
First of all “water boarding” and “sleep deprivation” is not torture. Second give me examples of the more effective methods.
20 posted on 04/27/2012 6:53:59 AM PDT by jveritas (God bless our brave troops)
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To: Olog-hai

The report is just a LIE. The reason of course is political like anything else with the socialist democrats. For these maggots power and politics trump everything else including national security.


21 posted on 04/27/2012 7:00:55 AM PDT by jveritas (God bless our brave troops)
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To: 1010RD
The history of torture is that it extracts the answer you want, not the correct answer. There are more effective, less distasteful methods.

In a well planned interogation, when a prisoner refuses to talk, you can extract no information. If a prisoner talks, even if they lie, they provide information. The more you talk, the harder it is to keep the lie straight and to keep nuggets of truth out of the lie. The primary purpose of enhanced interogation is to establish in the prisoners mind that they will talk, there is no avoiding it. Then the skilled interrogator can go to work on them.

The driver who provided the first break in the trail to Osama did not do so during torture. He slipped up weeks after he started talking.

22 posted on 04/27/2012 7:03:38 AM PDT by CMAC51
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To: Olog-hai

I will wait for the Minority Report that will provide the TRUTH.

Kinda like the Zimmerman and Trayvon Media episode.


23 posted on 04/27/2012 7:07:11 AM PDT by BilLies (If FRANK MARSHALL DAVIS had a son, he would look just like BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA JR.)
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To: Olog-hai

so exactly why is Abu Garhib still open for business? Why isn’t the media howling about that daily and why is the Ego-In-Chief breaking his campaign promise to close it? Must be another “run of bad luck.”


24 posted on 04/27/2012 8:07:27 AM PDT by subterfuge (BUILD MORE NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS NOW!!!)
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To: Olog-hai
"..The Bush Administration only used water-boarding on three captured suspects. One of them was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind of the September 11, 2001 attacks..."

If any information obtained from these three in these sessions resulted in actionable intelligence we know it did work.

25 posted on 04/27/2012 8:09:58 AM PDT by Anti-Bubba182
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To: 1010RD

Actually, the downside (according to what I know about communist torture of our POW’s) is not that people give you the information you want to hear, it is that they give you everything including the truth, things you don’t want to hear, and things that are lies.

It makes it difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff.

But, everyone breaks and talks. Everyone, except for some extremely rare examples.


26 posted on 04/27/2012 8:30:55 AM PDT by rlmorel (A knife in the chest from a unapologetic liberal is preferable to a knife in the back from a RINO.)
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To: 1010RD

The bottom line, though, is this “report” is not worth the electrons it took to send it over the Internet.

This would have as much significance as hearing “Democrats find little evidence that lowering taxes has any positive effect.”


27 posted on 04/27/2012 8:34:14 AM PDT by rlmorel (A knife in the chest from a unapologetic liberal is preferable to a knife in the back from a RINO.)
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To: Olog-hai
I have been on the Waterboard in SERE school.

I can assure all of you that anyone who is worked on the Waterboard with earnest will tell anyone everything they know.

Every time.

No human could resist a concerted effort to extract information under that duress.

Nobody.

So, if this is the contention of the Senate Committee, either the captured persons didn't KNOW anything, or the Senate folks are lying.

It can be only one or the other.

28 posted on 04/27/2012 10:32:56 AM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: 1010RD
The history of torture is that it extracts the answer you want, not the correct answer. There are more effective, less distasteful methods.

The point that some made is that a person undergoing torture will say "anything" to make it stop. But "anything" also includes the truth.

This is why torture should not be used UNLESS YOU CAN VERIFY THE ANSWERS through other means. In the famous "hidden time bomb" scenario, you make clear that the torture will continue until the bomb is actually found. In other circumstances, you are not satisfied until you obtain actionable intelligence: location of safe houses, caches of weapons, secret bank account numbers, etc.

29 posted on 04/27/2012 11:09:47 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell)
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To: Olog-hai
Jawohl. The evil Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld ordered it just for fun.


30 posted on 04/27/2012 12:03:56 PM PDT by caveat emptor (Zippity Do Dah)
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To: 1010RD
The history of torture is that it extracts the answer you want, not the correct answer. There are more effective, less distasteful methods.

Then why the Senate Study to prove what is already known historically?

I would say that torture is just an extreme version of coercion and or intimidation which seeks to force people to do things INCLUDING extracting the answer you want; however, that does not mean that you will not get any truthful answers.

The history of coercion and or intimidation shows that people can be forced to do what they otherwise would not INCLUDING revealing information.

The definition of torture rather than being the extreme has evolved to include what is not actually in the extreme including the "more effective, less distasteful methods" you suggest are the alternative.

31 posted on 04/27/2012 12:07:03 PM PDT by DBeers (†)
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To: CMAC51

Exactly.

Enhanced techniques work. It is as simple as that.

Depends on how you do it.

If you do it willy-nilly and just ask questions where you fire away on questions you have no clue as to the answer, that is not helpful.

However, throw in questions where you know the answer. . .that is the key.

Interrogate and ask questions where you know the answer and ask questions where you do not know the answer and the prisoner hasn’t a clue if he will be caught in a lie.

This confuses the prisoner because he doesn’t KNOW what you know, and therefore risks being punished even more if he is caught in a lie.

It is keeping the prisoner mentally off-balance, never really knowing what is known or not that makes the technique effective.


32 posted on 04/27/2012 12:07:52 PM PDT by Hulka
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To: Olog-hai
Let me guess---their witnesses were Khalid Sheik Mohammed, Waleed bin Attash, Ramzi Binalshibh, Ali Abd al-Aziz Ali and Mustafa Ahmad al-Hawsawi.

Did they talk to former head of counter-terrorism Jose Rodriguez who in the May 2, 2011 issue of Time Magazine said enhanced interrogations of KSM lead to the eventual locating and killing of Bin Laden?? And many in the intel. community agree waterboarding KSM also stopped a 9-11 style attack on L.A.

This Senate panel was just a conclusion looking for an investigation. They knew what they were going to conclude before they ever even started.

33 posted on 04/27/2012 1:26:17 PM PDT by MissesBush (The Fourth Estate has Become a Fifth Column)
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To: Olog-hai

The conclusion was written before the first hearing was held.


34 posted on 04/27/2012 3:24:01 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied.)
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To: 1010RD
The history of torture is that it extracts the answer you want, not the correct answer. There are more effective, less distasteful methods.

Well I don't agree with the first part of your statement but I do agree the U.S. doesn't need to use torture (but should always reserve the right to do so). That is why we use non-torture means for interrogation such as water-boarding.

35 posted on 04/27/2012 4:54:29 PM PDT by plain talk
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To: Olog-hai

If these buffoons really believe that torture isn’t effective, they aren’t doing it right.


36 posted on 04/27/2012 5:51:44 PM PDT by FlingWingFlyer (Dumb, dependent and Democrat is no way to go through life. - Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Texas)
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To: Olog-hai

I think someone needs to break out a battery on these dumocrats.


37 posted on 04/27/2012 7:30:41 PM PDT by sanescold (Time for the Hut cleaning!)
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To: jveritas
First of all “water boarding” and “sleep deprivation” is not torture.

This statement is absurd on its face. Both are definitively torture. They are inhuman and unAmerican.

Second give me examples of the more effective methods.

Army Field Manual 34-52 Chapter 1

It states:

PROHIBITION AGAINST USE OF FORCE

The use of force, mental torture, threats, insults, or exposure to unpleasant and inhumane treatment of any kind is prohibited by law and is neither authorized nor. condoned by the US Government. Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear. However, the use of force is not to be confused with psychological ploys, verbal trickery, or other nonviolent and noncoercive ruses used by the interrogator in questioning hesitant or uncooperative sources.

The psychological techniques and principles outlined should neither be confused with, nor construed to be synonymous with, unauthorized techniques such as brainwashing, mental torture, or any other form of mental coercion to include drugs. These techniques and principles are intended to serve as guides in obtaining the willing cooperation of a source. The absence of threats in interrogation is intentional, as their enforcement and use normally constitute violations of international law and may result in prosecution under the UCMJ.

Additionally, the inability to carry out a threat of violence or force renders an interrogator ineffective should the source challenge the threat. Consequently, from both legal and moral viewpoints, the restrictions established by international law, agreements, and customs render threats of force, violence, and deprivation useless as interrogation techniques.

******************

I am a Christian, a conservative and an American. Torture violates all three of those things. Cheney happens to be a great American, but he and Bush are wrong on torture. It has caused net/net more harm than good to America and American interests.

38 posted on 04/27/2012 7:59:52 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: Olog-hai

Hosenball was a close ally of CIA marxist turncoat Philip Agee, and was thrown out of England in the 1970’s as a threat to their security.

Under no circumstances is he to be trusted. I know that he has done some interesting writing for Newsweek, but a lot of it was innoccous in terms of hurting the communists or the jihadists.

Along with Hosenball, so-called journalist William “Big” Arkin (Institute for Policy Studies, Wash. Post columnist) is another “intelligence” journalist who is definitely an enemy of America. His exposure of reported American nuclear weapons stations across the world gave the KGB/GRU a intelligence coup that would have taken them years to gather by themselves. His other stories also did a lot of harm to America.

Another guy I don’t trust is the Wash. Post’s military/intelligence writer Walter Pincus. We have had a debate here at FR years ago about Pincus’s background, but instinct, and over 40 years of writing/participating in internal security affairs has raised my Alert Antennae to DefCong 5 on this guy. Remember, he was the writer who published the first information on the “Neutron Bomb” (i.e. Enhanced Radiation Bomb) that led to the massive Soviet/Communist Bloc and US Anti-Defense Lobby protests on the development of this weapon, as well as against the stationing of Soviet tank busting and retaliatory weapons such as the Pershing and Cruise missiles in England/Germany, etc.

The Soviets and now Russians, are the masters of “disinformation” , “misinformation”, “white lies, gray lies, and black lies” re propaganda they get published, often by paid KGB sympathizers, in the foreign press (Blitz, for one).

If you know who to watch, then you gain the advantage of being on guard against their lies against America as well as their exposing of national security programs and systems.


39 posted on 04/27/2012 8:24:05 PM PDT by MadMax, the Grinning Reaper
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To: Olog-hai
Senate probe finds little evidence of effective ‘torture’

in other news, Juan McCain perform acrobatic feat by signing senate torture document with his head up his @$$.

40 posted on 04/28/2012 5:13:06 AM PDT by Vaquero (Don't pick a fight with an old guy. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.)
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To: Olog-hai

Bullshit.


41 posted on 04/28/2012 7:38:30 AM PDT by headstamp 2 (Liberalism: Carrying adolescent values and behavior into adult life.)
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To: Olog-hai
I guess that it all depends on what your definition of success is. Any information extracted from an enemy operative is going to be suspect and unreliable, regardless of the method used to obtain it. It's only when that little tidbit of information is analyzed and compared to other intelligence that a clearer picture begins to emerge.

42 posted on 04/28/2012 10:05:50 AM PDT by Malone LaVeigh
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To: Olog-hai

Can’t seem to find the time to pass a budget!


43 posted on 04/28/2012 11:47:45 AM PDT by klimeckg ("The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men.")
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To: Olog-hai

Can’t seem to find the time to pass a budget!


44 posted on 04/28/2012 11:47:45 AM PDT by klimeckg ("The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men.")
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To: 1010RD

What is the definition of torture?

The senate is setting us up for something.

This is a trial balloon for ????


45 posted on 04/28/2012 8:35:28 PM PDT by kennyboy509 ( Ha! I kill me!!!)
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To: Olog-hai

Bin Laden is dead, Jim.

Obama is tryng to take credit for the very techniques that led to it, which he oppoesed, and which, if he had been President earlier, would never have served up the intelligence that led us to get him.

That dog don’t hunt.


46 posted on 04/29/2012 7:17:39 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: Olog-hai

47 posted on 04/29/2012 11:56:06 AM PDT by magellan
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To: 1010RD

“First of all “water boarding” and “sleep deprivation” is not torture.

This statement is absurd on its face. Both are definitively torture. They are inhuman and unAmerican.”

I am happy to see you have unilaterally taken it upon yourself to define behavior that is “unAmerican”. Your sanctimony expresses your own values not necessarily those of a large sector of Americans.It especially does not express my values because I agree that controlled enhanced interrogation techniques such as waterboarding and sleep deprivation can be effective to a certain extent to get them talking.Then it becomes a delicate matter of separating the disinformation from the kernels of truth.Because it may be distasteful to some and because it is a difficult task does not mean you do not do it.Further, because it may not work in one circumstance does not mean it will not in another.

The Army Field manuals you cited are bureaucratic documents to govern the conduct of large masses of troops in the field who may have a difficult time discriminating what degree of interrogation constitutes “torture” so the manual applies a blanket prohibition against pretty much everything beyond basic questioning. Note the catchall reference to prohibiting “unpleasant” treatment.Pretty silly on its face as “unpleasant” is undefined. Is “unpleasant” treatment torture or unAmerican?
At higher levels of intelligence as relates to the CIA that can discriminate and apply techniques under controlled circumstances, Army Field manuals have no application nor relevancy.
One last thing, John McCain may have expressed his disapproval of enhanced interrogation techniques but he will be the first one to tell you from experience that it does work.Don’t listen to his words.Read his book. There are some techniques that are and should be off limits. But sleep deprivation and waterboarding are not such techniques.


48 posted on 04/29/2012 6:31:45 PM PDT by chuckee
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To: Olog-hai

“A nearly three-year-long investigation by Senate Intelligence Committee Democrats...”

Well that’s as far as I got.

How can anyone question the impartiality of investigators that are partial to a particular outcome?


49 posted on 04/30/2012 12:02:03 AM PDT by aquila48
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To: chuckee

My dear Chuckee I don’t care what a “large sector of Americans” thinks. I am a republican, a Christian and an American and my values supersede those of the mob. That alone makes torture, including waterboarding and sleep deprivation, wrong.

If on a jury someone were accused of waterboarding Chuckee and keeping Chuckee up for days on end, I’d consider it torture and move to convict accordingly. Torture of enemy combatants or terrorists by Americans is nearly always wrong and becomes a recruiting tool for the enemy. The only exception is the rare “hot” need to know - it works mainly in the movies.

Your argument that the rarefied field of highly trained, objective and competent torturers allows for effective torture doesn’t hold water with the experts themselves or the science of interrogation. The article itself, along with objective fact, point this out. We had to waterboard KSM 183 times. If it were so effective shouldn’t it have worked much, much earlier?

Don’t get me wrong. Kill the enemy in combat, destroy his means of support, and eliminate their will to fight. Effective counter-terrorism and counter-insurgency techniques can include appropriate violence, just not torture. Long term the dangerous to liberty “War on Terror” will be won in the madrassas and mosques and even through liberty and econoomics and not on the battlefield. The idea of Islamic terrorism must be destroyed.

Conservatives shouldn’t shoot the message just becaue they don’t like the messenger. Torture is unAmerican. It isn’t effective, nor is it in keeping with our values. Cheney, who I otherwise like and admire, is wrong. Since the anti-torture movement has been compromised by liberal surrender monkeys conservatives shouldn’t be knee-jerk for it. We should regain the moral high ground and take the issue away.

The three fundamental questions are: 1. Is torture effective? 2. Is torture in keeping with American values and our Constitution? 3. Is it in our national interest. The answer to all three is “no”. Do the research yourself and you’ll come around.


50 posted on 04/30/2012 5:26:57 AM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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