Posted on 03/20/2012 10:40:20 PM PDT by Milagros
Perhaps a change in terminology might help. We have people like Sherman's friend who are ethnically Muslim, but who are at least partially secularized to the point where they associate more with Western civilization than with Islam.
Then we have those who associate totally with Islam. Let's call them "fundamentalist" Muslims, "ultra-orthodox" Muslims, whatever.
As long as Sherman's friend gives his allegiance to the United States as a whole rather than the Muslim Ummah, then everything is fine. Where things become not-so-fine is when he is forced to make a real choice of allegiance, and chooses Islam.
He doesn't need to become a suicide bomber himself. To the degree that he contributes money to Islamic groups that even indirectly fund Jihad, then he is a Jihadi. To the extent that he refuses to report Jihadis to law enforcement, then he is a Jihadi. To the extent that he politically supports Islamic political positions, then he is a Jihadi.
Umm, actually he's a multi-generation white American, mostly Welsh ancestry, grew up in CA. He converted back in the early 70s because he thought Christians were too violent. (He's well aware of the irony of this choice. But we should remember that absolutely nobody thought Islam was some kind of threat in 1972. It was just one of those cute multi-cultural religions.)
I don't really disagree with anything you say.
John is just as opposed to Islamists as I am, which is saying quite a bit. He would turn in those plotting attacks immediately.
Which is why I get a little testy when people come out with the "all Muslims are ..." stuff.
It's different when you were brought up Muslim, your family is Muslim, and your closest friends are Muslim. In such a case, even if you were only nominally a believer, if push came to shove you would be more likely to side with the radical Muslims than to abandon Islam.
PB, that pretty well sums it up.
SL, Here’s the problem. RE Trust.
Your friend may well be a great person other than his having willingly adopted a ‘religion’ that wants to kill you for the crime of not sharing his belief. While that’s pretty cognitively dissonant, lets go with it for the moment.
You are undoubtedly aware of Taqqya (SP?) Your friend, as a Koran-believing Muslim subscribes to it as does every other ‘moderate Muslim. Now I’m being serious here, not a smart azz.
Logically, you cannot know for sure if a muslim is telling you the truth because of that. He and every other muslim has a religious command to lie to your face if it serves his ends.
For a muslim to be a muslim they must follow the Koran as the divine word of Allah. If they do hot, they are apostate and libel to be killed by their fellow muslims. That’s a fact. When your friend converted, it put him at odds with the entire non-muslim world. You became his enemy because the book he reads and the god he worships says you are now his enemy. It tells him that he can and should lie to you to achieve his and muslim ends. That too is not disputable.
That is what every convert and every muslim born and bred ‘is’. Your enemy. We CANNOT trust a muslim on ANYTHING they say as they are commanded to lie to the infidel. But we can trust the printed word of the Koran, which for more than 1000 years has said KILL THE INFIDEL.
Now...Am I wrong for believing what the Koran clearly says? Is the Koran wrong and your currently peaceful friend right? Does he have some special dispensation from Allah that allows him among 1 billion muslims to defy the Koran?
No, he does not. Nor do any of those other 1 billion muslims. They have been commanded to kill or convert you, take your land and implement Sharia to bring ultimately ‘the peace of Islam’.
I understand your loyalty to your friend. But your friend placed his loyalty in a murdering death cult. It’s hard to accept, but it is true and you cannot deny the rock solid facts that I have written here.
I am sorry. I respect your loyalty to your friend on a human level. But on a survival level, people sharing your loyalty are helping further the cause of islam every bit as much as your converted friend. Islam must be driven out of every civilized society. It is not compatable with the BOR/Constitution and basic human decency. You must make the choice to assist it or the people who stand against it.
In the general sense I agree. It’s not that I ‘want’ government to have that power, but when it comes to Islam, realistically, only government ‘can’ get rid of Islam from America.
To clarify, It must be made illegal, banned, etc - and such necessitates govt. intervention/votes/etc - for the laws and enforcement of them. As it stands, govt sues etc. every time a citizen stands up to stop the spread of islam sharia etc.
If govt can stop us, the reverse is also true.
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