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Should Russia sell SU-35 to China?
The Diplomat ^ | 3/12/2012 | Harry Kazianis

Posted on 03/13/2012 7:24:45 PM PDT by U-238

Russia is reportedly close to finalizing a major sale of advanced fighter aircraft to China worth $4 billion. Such a sale, newsworthy in itself, would have been hard to imagine as recently as a few years ago considering the history of previous agreements.

The anticipated deal, first reported by Kommersant, sees the two sides “practically agreed on the delivery of 48 Su-35 multirole fighters, worth $4 billion, to China.” Some reports suggest that Chinese officials have dismissed talk of such a deal. But if true, an agreement like this would certainly make sense for Beijing, giving China access to an advanced fighter. The Su-35 or “NATO Flanker-E +” is described as a “4++ generation (fighter) using fifth-generation technology.” The fighter is “armed with 30-millimeter cannons and has 12 points of suspension for suspension of arms, including missiles and bombs.”

Russia, having lost out in India’s MMRCA fighter competition to French competitor Rafale, would for its part gain an important new military contract. But it seems like Moscow also has much to lose through the sale. After all, purely business considerations aside, Russia is said to have been stung before after selling China advanced aircraft.

And there’s another question raised by the reported deal – why would China want to procure advanced 4th generation fighters when it’s developing a 5th generation plane, the J-20, which is believed to have stealth capabilities?

A look into the recent past offers some possible answers.

The last major aircraft deal between Russia and China involved the SU-27 flanker in the 1990s. Moscow hadn’t sold major weapons systems to Beijing since the so-called Sino-Soviet split, when a rise in tensions sparked border clashes in 1969.

(Excerpt) Read more at the-diplomat.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: 4thgenerationfighter; aerospace; china; france; miltech; plaaf; rafale; russia; su35; sukhoi

1 posted on 03/13/2012 7:24:48 PM PDT by U-238
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To: sukhoi-30mki

Ping


2 posted on 03/13/2012 7:25:32 PM PDT by U-238
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To: U-238

How many extra engines would the chinese be getting?


3 posted on 03/13/2012 7:27:29 PM PDT by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: U-238

Russia should only supply the SU-35 to China, if it doesn’t mind dog fights over it’s territory against the Chinese SU-35s.

Russia is slitting it’s national wrists here.

Ignorance is bliss...


4 posted on 03/13/2012 7:28:57 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (Abortion? No. Gov't heath care? No. Gore on warming? No. McCain on immigration? No.)
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To: U-238
Should Russia sell SU-35 to China?

We have a vote?

5 posted on 03/13/2012 7:29:46 PM PDT by doc1019 (Romney will never get my vote!)
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To: tet68

It does not mention that in the article. But in the article “reports have surfaced that at least one of the J-20 prototypes uses a Russian borrowed engine. Access to Russian engine technology may therefore be one of the driving factors behind Beijing’s interest in the Su-35.”


6 posted on 03/13/2012 7:30:52 PM PDT by U-238
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To: tet68

This was also mentioned in the article:

“China’s inability to domestically mass-produce modern high-performance jet engines at a consistently high-quality standard is an enduring Achilles heel of the Chinese military aerospace sector and is likely a headwind that has slowed development and production of the J-15, J-20, and other late-generation tactical aircraft.”


7 posted on 03/13/2012 7:32:13 PM PDT by U-238
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To: U-238

So, if most of us say NO here, Russia will not sell them to China? these things are useless.


8 posted on 03/13/2012 7:33:43 PM PDT by fish hawk (NAACP = Native Americans Against Corrupt Politicians)
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To: fish hawk

They may be useless, but they do have something the Chinese want: the engines.


9 posted on 03/13/2012 7:36:43 PM PDT by U-238
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To: U-238

That’s why I asked.


10 posted on 03/13/2012 7:36:52 PM PDT by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: tet68

I know.


11 posted on 03/13/2012 7:37:37 PM PDT by U-238
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To: U-238

I suspect Russia would sell to just about anyone who has the money. There might be a few they would hesitate to sell to but they are very few.


12 posted on 03/13/2012 7:41:03 PM PDT by yarddog
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To: yarddog

Russia is earning more money from exports of military hardware, and its major clients are India, Algeria, Venezuela, China and Vietnam.

In the outgoing year, Russia has sold 11 billion dollars worth of arms. Since 2000, the country’s weapons export has increased threefold. Russia’s arms export is small though compared to the U.S, which has sold 28 billion dollars worth of military equipment this year alone.

India accounts for almost half of all the Russian arms sales, while the United Arab Emirates, South Korea and a few other countries import Russia’s caterpillar BMP-3 armoured vehicle. Indonesia and Venezuela buy mainly Russian tanks and warplanes. China’s arms deal with Russia stands at almost one billion dollars. Algeria and Vietnam are not lagging too far behind China. These countries will not purchase military equipment from sources other than Russia, says Alexander Khramchixin, a military expert.

“Russian military weapons are cheaper than their foreign rivals, and countries like India, Algeria and Vietnam, which have been familiar with Russian weapons since the Soviet times, will find it hard adjusting to other types of weapons. Besides, there is an existing partnership between Russia and India in arms production, thanks to which India is developing its own military industry”, Alexander Khramchixin said.

In addition, most of Russia’s arms have no equals in the world. For example, Russia’s Borei submarine project, as well as Yars and Topol missiles have no matches in the world. Russia has the potential and the technical base to be able to manufacture all types of weapons, says Igor Korotichenko, an expert in the military market, speaking in an interview with The VOR.

“We hardly ever buy foreign equipment. We have two contracts with France, for its Mistral carrier, and with Israel, for its drones. Russia’s Military-Industrial complex takes care of the rest. We are capable of producing all the remaining military hardware, to be able to meet the demands of our armed forces, as well as leaving enough for export”, Igor Korotichenko said.

“The Russian government has allocated 95 million dollars for the modernization of the national defense industry and armed forces. It is hoped that the modernization will enhance Russia’s position in the global arms market in the future”.

http://english.ruvr.ru/2011/12/30/63185093.html


13 posted on 03/13/2012 7:46:25 PM PDT by U-238
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To: yarddog

Problems in the industry include a high level of debt, inflation and lack of qualified personnel.


14 posted on 03/13/2012 7:50:14 PM PDT by U-238
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To: U-238

That could be a real treat!


15 posted on 03/13/2012 7:53:36 PM PDT by G Larry (spellcheck can ruin a good rant!)
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To: U-238

In fact German WWII war machine was built from scratch with Soviet advice and some of their technology during interwar period while a few other nations cooperated with Germany.

Pincer movement, blitzcrieg, combined air&mech point strike on front, airborne warfare are all parts of 20’s-30’s Soviet theories. Soviets trained German officers in their training centers and supplied them war materiels to rebuild after Versalles up to mid-30s before German-Soviet split over Spain there Stalin backed republicans and Germany backed nazy element. And they have resumes cooperation in 1939 under non-agression pact.
Bad thing Stalin purged most of his military and military industrial complex 1937-1939 over this feud labeling thousands of able officers and scientists as German and Japanese spies just to come into WWII with earlier 30’s technology and WWI tactics used by incompetent loyalists.

I can easily see similarities there especially considering recant Russian military reform and so-calles anti-corruption witch hunting over military budget.


16 posted on 03/13/2012 8:07:43 PM PDT by cunning_fish
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To: cunning_fish
In fact German WWII war machine was built from scratch with Soviet advice and some of their technology during interwar period while a few other nations cooperated with Germany.Pincer movement, blitzcrieg, combined air&mech point strike on front, airborne warfare are all parts of 20’s-30’s Soviet theories. Soviets trained German officers in their training centers and supplied them war materiels to rebuild after Versalles up to mid-30s before German-Soviet split over Spain there Stalin backed republicans and Germany backed nazy element. And they have resumes cooperation in 1939 under non-agression pact. Bad thing Stalin purged most of his military and military industrial complex 1937-1939 over this feud labeling thousands of able officers and scientists as German and Japanese spies just to come into WWII with earlier 30’s technology and WWI tactics used by incompetent loyalists. I can easily see similarities there especially considering recant Russian military reform and so-calles anti-corruption witch hunting over military budget.

Do you have a link for this?
17 posted on 03/13/2012 8:11:17 PM PDT by U-238
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To: cunning_fish

I really would like to see where you got this information. So a link would be nice.


18 posted on 03/13/2012 8:13:33 PM PDT by U-238
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To: U-238
F-15A equivalent.

Very good bird.

Behind every air superiority fighter we have.

19 posted on 03/13/2012 8:58:57 PM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: U-238

I think I know what he’s talking about, but he has it turned the wrong way round when it comes to interwar development of doctrine and equipment - during that period, the Germans were banned from doing quite a few military activities such as developing their armored forces and air force. So, they made co-operative training and R&D sites inside the Soviet Union, as a way to get around the restrictions. If anything, it was the Germans who helped shape the professional Soviet military of the 1930s. In addition, during the 20s and 30s, the Soviets imported entire factories from the West, and set them up under foreign guidance. The Germans were, along with the United States, one of the main contributors the Russians growth as an industrial power - the Minsk Truck Plant and Uralmash heavy industrial plants were built by the Germans

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kama_tank_school

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipetsk_fighter-pilot_school

He is right about about how the Soviets were one the main suppliers Germany had during WW2. Vast amounts of oil, gran, and other resources that the German war machine needed were exported in vast amounts by the Soviets.


20 posted on 03/13/2012 9:02:40 PM PDT by JerseyanExile
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To: Mariner

One difference is the SU-35 does not have any combat experience. The F-15 has combat experience.


21 posted on 03/13/2012 9:04:34 PM PDT by U-238
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To: U-238

AFAIK it is taught in Soviet military academies since 1960s being a common knowledge there. Maybe it’s part of Khruschev antistalinist propaganda but there are a lot of facts behind this.
There are Western studies as well:

Pariahs, Partners, Predators: German-Soviet Relations, 1922-1941
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3686/is_3_33/ai_n28721777/

Soviet-German relations before 1941
Information about Soviet-German relations before 1941
http://english.turkcebilgi.com/Soviet-German+relations+before+1941

I ‘ve just find it from yahoo right now. You can make deeper research if you want it.


22 posted on 03/13/2012 9:05:03 PM PDT by cunning_fish
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To: JerseyanExile

Your version is accurate.


23 posted on 03/13/2012 9:06:19 PM PDT by U-238
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To: cunning_fish

Thank you for linking it and its correct. No further research is necessary.


24 posted on 03/13/2012 9:08:15 PM PDT by U-238
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To: JerseyanExile; cunning_fish

You are both correct. I always give credit where credit is due.


25 posted on 03/13/2012 9:23:16 PM PDT by U-238
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To: JerseyanExile

Well, Western studies are influenced by former Nazy, Soviet studies are influenced by Soviets.
For that reason I think actual input from cooperation was mutual from both sides.

As for military theories blitzcrieg (if you can call it a doctrine) is not the same as soviet deep battle concept but it took many elements from it.


26 posted on 03/13/2012 10:56:17 PM PDT by cunning_fish
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To: U-238

10x for credits:)


27 posted on 03/13/2012 10:57:10 PM PDT by cunning_fish
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To: cunning_fish

:)


28 posted on 03/13/2012 10:58:04 PM PDT by U-238
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