Skip to comments.Rubio went to a Mormon church as a kid
Posted on 02/23/2012 7:47:04 AM PST by TexasFreeper2009
From the Miami Herald, a little-known detail about Sen. Marco Rubio's personal story:
When Marco was 8 years old and living in Las Vegas, the Rubio family attended a Mormon church for a few years.
It's a tidbit just released by the publisher of his memoirs. It's also a piece of the history of Rubio, a rising party star and one of the best-known Hispanic officials in the GOP, that comes as a surprise.
UPDATE: The incomparable Molly Ball points out via Twitter, "Rubio's cousin Mo Denis is Mormon D state sen. in NV." Rubio is a practicing Catholic.
His spokesman, Alex Conant, fills out the history a bit, saying, "His family attended Mormon church in Vegas starting when he was around 8 years old, and then returned to the Catholic Church when he was around 11. He received his first communion in Catholic Church in Las Vegas in 1984, and subsequently was confirmed and married in a Catholic Church."
(Excerpt) Read more at politico.com ...
Official Florida House biography. Calls himself a Roman
Catholic. He sounds like a just another big time hypocrite to me. Catholics DO NOT GO TO OTHER CHURCHES FOR WORSHIP unless they are fallen away Catholics and care nothing at all about their faith. This is obviously the case with Rubio.
Really? I think you are wrong, noob.
Ok, I am not getting this. Rubio goes to church with his family and it is a Baptist Church. Of course he cares about faith otherwise he wouldn’t be going to church and being involved with a church family.
I do not know if you are aware that Baptists and Catholics believe in the same God.
When you are 8 yrs old you go where your parents go and do what they tell you. I’m just thankful his folks did not decide to dabble in Scientology.
You’re not bright enough to be obtuse, noob.
Well said (#54)
Then email this Catholic priest and call him wrong.
In the first place a Catholic has no business attending Protestant church services even occasionally. To participate in a heretical worship service and especially a communion service can be sinful for a Catholic because such an act is an affirmation of what we believe to be untrue. To attend an ecumenical service or a wedding or baptism is allowed, but Catholics are not allowed to attend such churches for the main reason of worship. Now if there are no Catholic churches in the vicinity on a Sunday, Catholics are allowed to participate in the Liturgy of Churches whose clergy are validly ordained such as the Eastern Orthodox Churchesincluding the reception of the Eucharist. Although we consider them to be in schism (not in union with the Pope) with the Catholic Church, such Churches are not heretical and share our basic beliefs.
Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.
The Southern Baptist Convention’s theology is firmly anti-Catholic.
The Catholic Church teaches that abandoning the faith for a non-Catholic denomination is a mortal sin.
This. In my area there are no Catholic Churches, nor Eastern Orthodox.
Can you point out in their beliefs what is “firmly anti-Catholic”. I am just not seeing it.
OMG!! Is he damaged?
- - - —
Doubtful, since his family came to their senses and left the cult when he was 13.
As CC said, Thank God that many like us have left the evils of Mormonism and came to the truth of Christ.
At least the Mormons dont behead you if you leave.
- - -
Well, not anymore, but they do shun you, encorage divorce if one spouse leaves, you can lose your job, all your friends and family and even be falsely accused of crimes by other LDS members.
Do some research about how ex-mo’s are treated.
..and what on earth does that simple statement say about LDS in generl, svcw? That we do not hold it against people for making a free will choice?
- - - -
They do usually hold it against those that leave. Generally the slander against those who leave are along the following lines...they couldn’t live the Mormon gospel, they wanted to sin, they couldn’t follow the WoW, they didn’t want to pay tithing, they never had a testimony, etc. Then there is the ward slander, encouraging divorces, shunning etc. Calling apostates ‘anti-mormons’ or ‘sons of perdition’.
In truth, the Mormons only believe in “Free agency” for them, not for apostates. I can give you a whole list of quotes of LDS leaders about apostates. Don’t try to whitewash this, us ex-mormons know better.
Ive seen people shunned in many denominations in my 56 years because they left their church...or married outside of it, etc..
- - -
More lies/spin from the Mormon brigade. I know of no Christian who was shunned for leaving a particular church. I have left Christian churches and still maintained positive relationships with the members of that Church. No biggie we still see each other as brothers/sisters in Christ.
However, I was shunned, lost my job, housing, fiance, and friends, accused of sin and CRIME when I left Mormonism by other Mormons and most ex-mormons say the same thing.
Almost every Mormon I know who left has been shunned and worse.
As I understand the Koran burning and subsequent riots, some Afghan civilians working on the Army facility saw the soldiers burning the Korans and went beserk on the spot. Word got out fast. And the rest, as they say, is history.
" What a strange statement Jeff. It does say much about lds, however. "
i think rubio being ex-mormon is a big plus
he wasnt gullible enough to swallow their dead dunkin petty god makin religion
he was smart enough to slip thru their brainwashing and leave the cult, brave enough child to do it no matter what they said, and consistent enough in his decisions to stay gone
now compare that to that flip floppin waffle iron mitt romney
no, blood atonement only requires your throat to be cut so your soul won't go to hell for rejecting mormonism
which mormons don't really do
any more, that is
except when they do state executions...you did know that's the reason utah still has a firing squad, didn't you
spilling the blood of the criminal is supposed to be doing him a favor, to keep him from going to hell
it was brought up in a bill a year or so ago and the mormons voted overwhelmingly to keep it...and the doctrine of blood atonement was selling point #1 in all the churches and they voted in bloc
its also why you see on occaison entire mormon congregations turning out for blood drives...one, its great pr...two, they attach doctrinal significance to shedding blood as a sacrifice against their sins
some mormons may attach nothing more than community service to the act, but to the leadership it keeps "blood atonement" doctrine alive and well
never tell when they might need it down the road, y'know
(exmormon born in the church)
I think that between 8 and 11 a CHILD would 'go' where ever the PARENTS went.
As an ADULT, he has NEVER had seen any REASON to go back to an LDS church!
Do not Jehovah’s Witness do the same thing? Shun, that is, when a member leaves the faith?
There goes YOUR TR!!!
Temple Recommend Questions
1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?
2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?
3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?
4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?
5 Do you live the law of chastity?
6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?
7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?
9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?
10 Are you a full-tithe payer?
11 Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?
12 Do you have financial or other obligations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?
13 If you have previously received your temple endowment:
Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?
Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?
14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?
15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?
They just call you an APOSTATE and demote you to the lowest level of MORMON heaven©.
has anyone looked at theblaze.com
title reads ‘did you know rubio was a devout mormon during childhood’
article following states “rubio, who calls himself a catholic...”
if anyone needed any evidence beck and the blaze are tools of the godlings in slc, well there it is go look
plus, i am so pleased that this thread shows just what kind of devious spin that the morg will use on any bone that falls in reach
remember that the next million dollar ‘i’m a mormon’ commercial you see
beneath the smiles is a cult moulded mind with more in common with islam that the Christian labels they twist to fit their ‘better to be a god in kolob than serve in heaven’ church/cult...
think i’ll invent a new word...chult...covers the bases
(exmormon born into the chult)
There are some here on FR who, claiming to be members of the LDS religious organization, NEVER seem to say ANYThing even vaguely MORMON in their posts.
Why are they ASHAMED of it?
EEEEKKKK!!!! Run away!! RUN AWAY!!!!
You would need to ask them that Q.
You and your ilk will not be satisfied until the last Mormon is dragged through the streets to Smithfield.
You’ve going to SMALLville!!
Turn LEFT for Smithville...
Jeff; you just might consider going over to the FUNDAMENTALISTS...
"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;
and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,
and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.
Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)
Yeah; it IS a bit scary when some RELIGION wants to control people like that!!
1 Timothy 4:3
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
|The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
© 2006 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved.
Aiming for the crossover vote:
their missionaries will chase you! their magic underwear does not yield to criticism! only if you are dead broke and useless to their organization do they tire!
hey, if there's a rich "ex" out there, i want to make a lo-budget "blair witch" type horror movie...call it "the missionary"
a nice innocent mormon kid who has all the doors slammed in his face trying to sell his crazy cult gets a 'burnin in his bosom' that tells him if people don't accept his faith he has to blood atone them ight on the spot to save them from hell
we can balance the message with a bishop in the plot whos sincerely trying to catch the killer but divided in his loyalties...internal struggle
"but it couldn't be nice sweet brother x"
horror whodunit with satisfactory ending that displays alot of the bizarre beliefs and has the bishop himself faith wavering as the stake president is trying to force him to protect the church rather than catch the killer
my imagination works overtime...lol
Come to OUR side; and you'll get access to.....
- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, v. 4, p. 375;
||Monday, Oct 12, 2009, at 07:58 AM
Dear Mr. Oaks: Family, Isn't It About Time?
Original Author(s): Moniker
DALLIN H. OAKS - SECTION 2 -Guid-
|Dear Mr. Oaks,
I listened to your conference address and have felt the effects of your talk in my personal life. I feel compelled to let you know the actions your words have caused in my life.
I did not leave the Mormon church because of any personal offenses by my family or friends within the church. Choosing to leave the Mormon faith was a very difficult decision for me. I was obeying all of the commandments at the time that I started researching Mormon literature and history to find the truths for myself. I was simply following Joseph Smith's example, by searching the truth of religion. I was sad to realize how untrue the church was, after reading the Church's early documents.
I had loving and supportive parents. Even though I knew they would be disappointed, I did not think my family would shun me the way they did when I told them my thoughts about the church. I was expecting them to still love me unconditionally. I was very disappointed. They used all kinds of threats and manipulation to get me to go back to church. When my mom died and we were dressing her body, my dad took the opportunity as a missionary lesson and said, "If you go to the temple again, you will be able to see her again. If not, you will never, ever see her again." This was a very horrible thing to say to a daughter who has just lost her best friend, her mother. It really hurt me. This and being left out of family get-togethers or barely being tolerated, simply because of my beliefs, helped me to see even more clearly what my family members' true colors were.
Before this experience with my family, I was so torn about what to do concerning the church. On the one hand, I did not like to live a lie by participating in an organization I did not agree with and that I thought was corrupt. On the other hand, I couldn't reconcile how a corrupt organization could have so many wonderful people as members. I looked up to and admired many mormon friends, family members and professors. However, when my friends and family turned away from me because of my beliefs, my previous notions about the people within the church were shattered. It was a testimony to me of what a corrupt organization can do to otherwise loving and good people.
In your talk, you claimed that a parent who keeps loving a child unconditionally, when that child is not "obeying the law", knows nothing of love. I disagree and feel that you know nothing about love. Firstly, your belief in your church is not "the law". It is a belief that you are free to have. A child who has a belief differing from yours is not "wayward" and is in need of neither fixing nor manipulating, especially not when one's child is an adult, as you suggested. Adult children should be free to choose their own religious belief system without expecting to be shunned or chastised by their family. Secondly, parental love does not know conditions or bounds. It does not manipulate. A family is supposed to stick together, through good and hard times and no matter what the individual members' beliefs are or aren't. A divided family is not a functional family. You suggested that although being seperated from family members who are not believing or living all of your church's teachings is painful for the righteous Mormons, it is sometimes necessary. I find this instruction to the members of your church to be hurtful. The personal effects are devestating and very painful to many Exmormons.
Since leaving the church and Utah, I have met many wonderful families. I'm envious of the loving, unconditional love and respect they show each other. I never saw this at this level with Mormon families. Since Mormons claim to have cornered the market on perfect families, this fallacy is even more difficult to digest.
Your talk had very interesting timing for me personally. I am of pioneer stock and all of my family members are very active in your church. I am a BYU graduate. I served way beyond what was asked of me within your church. I tell you this before you scoff to yourself and think, "I'm glad a loser like her is out of my church anyway." I am a good person and was a good Mormon. I was such a great daughter, sister and aunt. My family was my world and I love them more than I will ever be able to express in words. However, my son is my closest family member and I have to consider his needs in life first, above all else. I simply cannot expose him to the hurt of my family. I don't want him to be shunned and manipulated by family members the way I was. I think that not having an extended family is better than having a very hurtful, caustic one. There is not a place in my family for people who do not believe as they believe.
It is very sad to not have any grandparents for my darling baby though. They don't get to hear his first words or see his first steps. They don't get hand colored scribbles of "I love you" in the mail. My son doesn't get to see them at Christmas or to play with his many cousins. I was so sad about this recently, that I was considering letting them back into my life, even after the very hurtful ways they treated me, simply for being true to my own belief system.
I was starting to talk to my dad again by phone and email. I was skeptical because of how much he hurt me and proved to me that my family really wasn't a family at all. However, I did not want to deprive my baby of an extended family, so I was willing to have an open mind and heart about my family and give them another chance. There was another reason for opening the door to my family again: I loved them unconditionally. I love them so deeply and truly that it hurts because they continually put their religious beliefs before their love for me. These are the reasons why I opened myself back up to them again. I was treading lightly and using caution though, as I did not want to hurt my son indirectly, through my family's almost sociopathic need to "follow their leaders".
Then came your talk! Next came my family's horrible attacks on my character and my own little family. I once again am reminded of the pain the Mormon church leaves in its wake. I don't need to go through that pain again. I don't need my son to think this is the way a family is supposed to behave. I will teach him how loving family members treat each other through my unconditional love for him. He will know me by my fruits. I am grateful for my family in that they have taught me exactly how not to be in raising my own family. I have learned much from them.
I'm very happy to be at even more peace than ever with my decision to leave the Mormon church. I have no doubt at all now that it was the right thing to do. The evidence of how corrupt and unloving the Mormon church is has been impossible to ignore lately. I used to love it and it pained me to have it out of my life, even after it no longer represented any kind of truth for me. Now, I am at peace because I have watched the behavior of many Mormons long enough now to see how a corrupt organization turns love into a perverse concept. I am finally free of the guilt I had in keeping my son from my family. They are the ones keeping themselves from him. I would be an idiot to give them another chance. Thank you for your talk and especially for the timing of it. My son's life will be richly blessed because of it.
A Loving Exmormon Mom
Dallin H Oaks
Parents should also remember the Lords frequent teaching that whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth (Hebrews 12:6).13 In his conference talk on tolerance and love, Elder Russell M. Nelson taught that real love for the sinner may compel courageous confrontationnot acquiescence! Real love does not support self-destructing behavior.14
Wherever the line is drawn between the power of love and the force of law, the breaking of commandments is certain to impact loving family relationships. Jesus taught:
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother (Luke 12:5153).
This sobering teaching reminds us that when family members are not united in striving to keep the commandments of God, there will be divisions. We do all that we can to avoid impairing loving relationships, but sometimes it happens after all we can do.
That question certainly bears repeating. And who leaked the whereabouts of the 22 Seals when their helicopter went down? And why were that many on the same plane? So many questions the media refuses to ask. And the republicans in Congress for that matter. Our country is deteriorating at a rapid pace.
A staunch CONSERVATIVE like Jeff or some sterile old QUOTES from MORMON leaders?
Yes they do, and they aren’t Christians either. When I was first LDS, we had a good friend and neighbor who was ex-JW and she used to tell us about shunning.
If Newt Gingrich were a Mormon I'd still support him 100%, or if DeMint or Barbour or Jindal were Mormons and they were running I'd support them 100% too, and I don't give a red cent about what Obama would talk about.
You want to be obsessed with Mormons, you go ahead, but come clean and admit that's YOUR personal scab to scratch, OK???
Concern troll is concerned.
If Newt Gingrich were a Mormon I'd still support him 100%, or if DeMint or Barbour or Jindal were Mormons and they were running I'd support them 100% too, and I don't give a red cent about what Obama would talk about.
You want to be obsessed with Mormons, you go ahead, but come clean and admit that's YOUR personal scab to scratch, OK???
NS it might serve you to learn about mormonism before you attempt to dismiss it.
Romney is who he is because of his mormonism not in spite of it.
There is not an obsession with mormons, it is however exposing mormonISM that is the issue.
“Ive seen people shunned in many denominations in my 56 years because they left their church...or married outside of it, etc..”
The Amish are the only Christian denomination I know of that practice shunning... and I’ve been in many churches in many cities across the US.
Mormons routinely ostracize, impugn the character of and spread rumors about those who leave. Ask any of the mormons here who left the LDS corp and became Christians.
“...imagine if he had attended services at a synagogue. That would really make him an evil person.”
Judaism isn’t a cult, like mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Scientology.
So if a wica person wants to be president, thats ok? How about a devil worshipper? Or a moonie is ok?
If our president has grandiose delusions of being a god, thats ok? If he thinks he will have his own planet thats ok? How about calling Jesus satans brother? Or saying Mary had sex with God the Father?......
I can see it now. Obama making jokes about romney’s planet, “maybe he’ll get his own galaxy.” “Can he run the country from lightyears away?” How about the saturday night live skits of romney saying take me to your leader and he goes to Europe......
Who cares? So did I. He, like me, had enough sense to get the hell out as soon as I had a lick of sense.
if newt gingrich drank this koolaid he wouldnt be newt gingrich
The following is an overview of the Mormon gospel.
Where did we come from? Mormons teach that before we were borncalled the preexistence--we lived as spirit beings in a heavenly realm with our heavenly parents. Our heavenly parents were God the Father (named Elohim) and one of his wives. In other words, each human being was born as a spirit baby to two resurrected people; Elohim and a mother. Since Elohim has an unknown number of wives, we all shared the same father but had different mothers.
Prior to the preexistence we existed as separate entities called intelligences. While LDS doctrine does not address what an intelligence is, it does say that there were various degrees of progression among the intelligences and that only the best and the brightest progressed to become spirit beings in preparation for mortality. The rest of creation (the earth, animals, plants, insects, all the way down to individual cells that make up the human body) , were created spiritually first, from the pool of remaining intelligences before the physical creation.
Life in the spirit world was called the First Estate, Where we were tutored by our heavenly parents side, learning the way of salvation and growing in wisdom and knowledge. Some spirits advanced more quickly than others, most notably of which was Jehovah (Jesus pre-mortal name); our eldest spirit brother and first-born son of heavenly Father and Mother. One day, as the time for the next step in our eternal progression approached, a great family council in heaven was called. God the Father explained we would need a Savior, as all would sin and some would lose their way back to Him. He asked whom he should send.
Mormon teaching says that at that point Jehovah stepped forward and offered to be Savior of mankind; allowing people the freedom to choose whether or not to follow him (free agency) and he would give Heavenly Father all the glory. Jesus knew we needed free will to choose obedience to the gospel in order to prove ourselves worthy of exaltation (godhood).
Lucifer then stood before the council and stated he would go down as savior of mankind and guarantee that not one soul would be lost. He would use coercion to enforce obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel, thus assuring that everyone would make it through mortality worthy enough to gain exaltation. There was only one catch; Lucifer demanded all the honor and glory for doing it.
Mormon scripture records that Heavenly Father then said, I will send the first (Abraham 3:27, Pearl of Great Price). A great brouhaha followed, with Lucifer rebelling and a war in heaven ensuing, resulting in Lucifer (thereafter known as Satan) and a third of the spirits beings cast out of heaven down to the earth, never to receive mortal bodies.
The preceding leads up to why we are here. Just as we progressed from intelligence to spirit being, according to Mormon doctrine, we advanced as spirit children in degree of valiancy, loyalty, and worthiness. Those who did not follow Satan were said to have kept their first estate, qualifying them to be born into mortality to receive a body of flesh. Some of the Fathers children fought so valiantly at the side of Jehovah and Michael (the latter who would come into the world as Adam) that they were chosen to be prophets and leaders down through the ages. One of the most valiant spirits was Joseph Smith, set apart to be the greatest leader (next to Jesus Christ) of all dispensations of time. As LDS scripture attests, "Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it" (Doctrine & Covenants 135:3)
Spirit children who were not as courageous, but still the cream of the crop, were reserved to be born into faithful Mormon homes in these Latter Days (the period of time between Joseph Smith and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ). Those who were valiant in the preexistence, but not stellar enough to make it into an LDS home, were reserved for the Last Days to become converts to Mormonism at some point in their mortal lives. Spirit children who chose the side of Jesus, but did not fight valiantly on his side were sent to earth during less enlightened times. LDS leaders at one time taught that fence-sitters were born with dark skin (any non-Caucasians). Nevertheless, every individual keeping their first estate would receive a mortal body on earth, known as the second estate. According to Mormon doctrine we are here to get a mortal body, gain experience, be tested, and progress toward godhood. Where we go after we die depends on several factors. In Mormon theology there are three degrees of gloryor heavenly realmsin which people end up. Essentially, everybody goes to heaven. A person can be as wicked and evil as Hitler and still get a degree of glory that far surpasses anything like this earth. The three main divisions from lowest to highest are the Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial kingdoms. Within each division are various levels to which one can attain, however, there is no kingdom hopping. In other words, someone in the Telestial Kingdom cannot advance to the Terrestrial or Celestial kingdoms, nor can a Terrestrial being advance to the Celestial kingdom. People in higher kingdoms can visit lower kingdoms, but not vice versa.
The Telestial kingdom is reserved for murderers, blasphemers, liars, adulterers, fornicators, and other lascivious sinners. Those who go to this kingdom must pay for their own sins by suffering the torments of hell for a thousand years during Christs millennial reign here on earth. When that period of time is up they come forth in the second resurrection and dwell in the lowest of the heavens for the rest of eternity, enjoying eternal paradise and being ministered to by the Holy Ghost.
The Terrestrial kingdom is reserved for the honorable people of the earth; those who were moral and upright, but rejected the LDS gospel. Latter-day Saints who were lukewarm about their membership in the Church will also be assigned to this kingdom. People attaining the Terrestrial Kingdom will be able to have Jesus Christ minister to them, but will not see God the Father.
An inheritance in this glorious kingdom [the Celestial Kingdom] is gained by complete obedience to gospel or celestial law By devotion and faithfulness, by enduring to the end in righteousness and obedience, it is then possible to merit a celestial reward (Bruce R. McKonkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 116).
To advance to the highest degree of glory within the Celestial Kingdom, one must be married in the LDS Temple by one of the authorized brethren holding the Melchizedek priesthood. This allows the couple to achieve godhood, thereby obtaining the ability to create and populate their own worlds. Mormons who lived the gospel and were worthy enough to merit the Celestial Kingdom, but did not make the godhood track (i.e., did not marry), will serve as angels ministering to those who achieve godhood.
The Mormon gospel is very works-based and denies the completed work of grace accomplished on the cross by Jesus Christ. It is almost Universalist in nature, in that everyoneregardless of religion or belief--goes to some degree of heaven. The only exception is what Mormonism calls Sons of Perdition; those
who gain a perfect knowledge of the divinity of the gospel cause [Mormonism], a knowledge that comes only by revelation from the Holy Ghost, and then link themselves with Lucifer and come out in open rebellion Their destiny, following the resurrection, is to be cast out with the devil and his angels, and inherit the same kingdom in a state where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched (Ibid. p 746).
The goal of Mormonism is to perfect the saints, bringing them to a state of exaltation, as they believe God is; an exalted man.
On the other hand, the whole design of the gospel is to lead us onward and upward to greater achievement, even, eventually, to godhood. This great possibility was enunciated by the Prophet Joseph Smith in the King Follet sermon (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 34262; and emphasized by President Lorenzo Snow. It is this grand and incomparable concept: As God now is, man may become! (See The Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, comp. Clyde J. Williams, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1984, p. 1.) (Gordon B. Hinckley, Dont Drop the Ball, Ensign, Nov 1994, 46)
(exmormon born into the chult and the diagram is accurate)
Subject: “We are NOT a cult”... some observations on this Mormon statement
Date: Jan 19 13:37
Recently, I finished Steve Hassan’s book “Combating cult mind control”. I mentioned earlier how I was looking for the Mormon church to be brought up as an example of a cult and it was not. The book focused on destructive cults like the Moonies, The Way, The people’s temple (Jim Jones) etc. Hassan was a top Moonie recruiter for 2 or 3 years and after an accident was wrenched out of the Moonie cult and deprogrammed successfully.
Throughout the book I drew parallel after parallel. Until I read this book, I never considered the church as a cult. I concluded that the church takes on many prevalent cult characteristics. The last chapter in particular hit me that my mission experience in Spain was the biggest parallel to Hassan’s Moonie cult experience. The temple experience also takes on significant cult characteristics.
Here is my list.. in progress of course:
1. In Temple recommend interviews, members are told that the interviewer represents Jesus and should answer all questions as if they were talking to Jesus. This is a break down of barriers designed to condition the member to completely submit to church?s authority
2. Naked touching in the temple washing and anointing ritual also breaks down barriers, creates submission to church authority [This eternal ordinance was changed in Jan 2005 see mormon366.htm ]
3. New name, suggests reassignment of identity
4. Temple endowment experience is hypnotic, produces a relaxed, even sleepy alpha like state for receptivity to church indoctrination, oaths, instruction, commitment. Similar to Moonie repetitive indoctrination sessions where chanting, singing, and long periods of lecturing happen.
5. Secret signs, tokens, passwords to get into Mormon heaven. If one does not have this exclusive information, they will be denied access past certain angels along the way back to God’s presence. This is an element of control designed to produce exclusivity
6. Requirement to wear church approved underwear night and day, conditioned to believe they possess special protections. Another design to control via exclusivity
7. Strict tithing requirements. Yearly face to face confrontation with a high church authority to declare to him (as the lord?s representative) how much money the member was able to give to the church. Encouraged to give everything that the lord blesses you with even ones time, talents to the building up of the LDS church. In addition to tithes, generous fast offerings are encouraged. Giving to other charities or worthy causes outside the church is heavily discouraged. The member intuitively knows that the tithing, fast offering, missionary funds and perpetual education funds must be donated to first... and only THEN should outside charities be considered. This cult characteristic, to me, falls under extreme duress to give only to the church organization. The member is even told that if the tithing is not “honest” they will literally burn up at the Lord’s 2nd coming.
8. Outsiders not permitted to enter the temple. Exclusivity.
9. Members believe Jesus literally walks the halls of the temples and no other buildings on earth receive this privilege. There is only Faith promoting rumors to back this up of course. Yet it is a very strong and widely held belief in the church that this is so.
10. There is a blatant Us vs. Them mentality. The LDS testimony conditions members to ?know? based on feelings that they are the only ones on earth with the Truth or approved plan of God. Everyone else is wrong and must be saved or baptized into the LDS church. This doctrine goes as far as to maintain that every living human who has ever lived in this earth must be baptized. While logically impossible, the doctrine is widely believed. God will figure it out. This rationality is supposed to support this impossibility
11. LDS church has more evidence to prove it false than it does to prove it true, yet members see this as a test of faith and God?s way of strengthening his “Elect”. Or members have been conditioned to never look at this material. Very similar to the Moonie approach that outside information was evil and falls under satanic origins. Anything that could potentially deprogram a Moonie was satanic. Family members, spouses, newspaper articles, radio... you get the idea.
12. Members are encouraged strongly to never look at ?anti? literature. Yet early apostles encouraged the discovery of truth and preached openly that truth would stand up to highest degree of scrutiny. This was before damning evidences to the church’s platform of ideology was widely known or even challenged. During this era, the church had a sense of infallibility as the saints were securely sequestered in the desert of Utah. Completely isolated from the outside world.
13. Bishop interviews are obsessed with sexual purity for youth & missionaries. Adults have been told which sexual acts are permissible and which are not. Though, this is not consistent throughout the church. Young people must disclose any sexual acts, even minor ones. This young person (male or female) believes they are talking to Jesus Christ’s representative in these interviews. Lying to the bishop is equated to lying to Jesus.
14. Missions are extreme examples of Cult experience.
A. 80 hrs a week free labor (Missionary makes no money) in fact the missionary pays largely for his own meals, lodging, transportation and clothing out of his own pocket. The missionary is told that the 2 years in service is a “tithing” of the first 19 years of his life that God gave him/her.
B. When not working in field one is encouraged to read scripture & pray constantly
C. High amounts of self-indoctrination and mass indoctrination at zone, district meetings. Guilt tactics are used. If low recruit numbers are happening, the missionary is frequently blamed. Reasons for low recruit numbers are tied to unlikely reasons such as a lack of dedication or commitment to mission rules or even a suggestion that too many missionaries were masturbating too frequently in the past month. This is a gross abuse of mind control.
D. Encouraged to frequently recite scripture and hymns, carry a prayer in ones heart at all times so as to fortify ones efforts to keep rules, remain “sanctified to the cause” and not have impure thoughts or masturbate.
E. No outside influences, no TV, no radio
F. Must always be with companion except for showers and toilet
G. Confined to one area, not permitted to go outside geographic boundaries
H. Extreme limited contact with family, letters once a week, no phone call home but twice a year
I. Primary job is to recruit new members, give the prospect milk and NO meat doctrine. Deception (by only telling the rewritten version of the church’s history and doctrine) is encouraged most often without the missionary NOT knowing he is testifying to untruths.
J. Every person met is sized up as potential recruit,
K. Current members are badgered for referrals for new recruits, friends and neighbors
L. Loaded language, acronyms. Outsiders cannot follow many regular LDS conversations
15. If one ever leaves the church, they are told and conditioned to think they will be sent to outer darkness in the afterlife. There is a fear of imminent damnation if they leave the group.
16. One man (the prophet figure) speaks for God. Members see this as extremely positive as they believe the prophet will never lead them astray. When confronted that prior prophets in history have been wrong or even preached harmful doctrine that was widely held up as God’s word (racial discrimination) the member quickly dismisses this. This is supported by the perceived good works the church produces and the notion that Mormonism produces good people and strong families.
Well, there is my list. I was hoping to come up with 17 items as an attempt to parallel the faith promoting rumor about the 17 points of the true church. I am one short... mainly because I am out of time.
Interested in comments and additions.
Subject: Re: “We are NOT a cult”... some observations on this TBM statement
Date: Jan 19 14:48
IMHO I did not consider the Church a cult. But I also hadn’t realized how indoctrinated I was. About five years ago I still thought that I might end up in “outer darkness”, I was actually afraid to admit that I did not believe that JS was a “true prophet”
It has taken me thirteen years to actually feel completely like a non-Mormon.
Subject: Re: I have been out for over 10 years and can’t get past those feelings. I’m happy for you! nt
Date: Jan 19 17:36
I started questioning the church when I was 16, I left it when I was nineteen.
I reexamined LDS teachings through the filter of Zen Buddhist and Taoist philosophies when I was Twenty-Two.
Then finally at the age of twenty-seven I let go.
Now at 33 I am free. More or less.
Subject: You have made some excellent points...
Date: Jan 19 15:11
Author: Molly Morgie
I will have to read Steve Hassan’s book. I have done a small amount of research on this and found a website with an interesting “Cult Checklist”.
It was after reading this, I began to truly see what the LDS church is. I was actually very surprised at the similarities. It’s frightening to think that many of our family members and friends believe moism to be true.
Subject: I’d like to hear....
Date: Jan 19 15:29
...some members describe what they think a cult is and/or the details of HOW their church isn’t one, differences, etc. Is it just because Jesus and Joseph Smith say so or something?
Subject: Mormons are not allowed to research and produce their own curriculum to teach in a Mormon church.
Date: Jan 19 15:51
Author: Infy (in hiding)
Mormons are not allowed to research and produce their own curriculum to teach in a Mormon church. All lessons are pre-planned by the LDS Corporation and sent out to all Ward Houses. All Ward Members are taught the same thing in every class including Priesthood, Sunday School and Sacrament.
Subject: They can’t even quote non-members in “lessons”
Date: Jan 19 17:04
There have been stories here of people being chewed out because they chose to include quotes from people like Ghandi, Mother Theresa, MLK, and others who weren’t Mormon. Only cult leaders are allowed to be quoted.
Subject: Re: They can’t even quote non-members in “lessons”
Date: Jan 19 18:09
Long gone are the days when my Sunday School teacher culled his lessons from the Readers Digest. Better yet, we had a husband/wife team that listened to a non-member radio broadcast every Sunday morning, and that would usually be part of the lesson in Sunday school that day.
The church sure is a different one than what I knew in the 50s through the 70s.
Subject: Loved the book, and the excellent points you drew from it! Also:
Date: Jan 19 17:55
I’ll tell you my favorite part of the book. I had never stopped to compare brainwashing and mind control.
Brainwashing is blatantly and obviously abusive.
Cult mind control is subtle. Victims cooperate because they don’t realize they’re being manipulated. Mormons and other cultists can’t know they’re under mind control simply because they give up control of their own minds whenever they’re doing the bidding of their cult.
You can’t know you’re under mind control if you’re not fully utilizing your own mind enough to clearly see the situation. That’s why Mormons aren’t lying when they incorrectly say they’re not in a cult. People in cults can’t know that they’re in them until they leave.
Subject: Additional thoughts, Why LDS church not considered a “destructive” cult...
Date: Jan 19 18:11
After posting my thoughts, I have been thinking as to why the LDS church is not considered a destructive cult. I can only come up with this:
It must be the family aspect of the church. Destructive cults like the Moonies, The Way, People’s temple recruit individuals and isolate them from family, friends etc. The LDS church is not like this per se. I can see the reaction from nonmember families who have a child join the LDS church. They would likely see their child joining a Moonie type cult. There is no getting around that.
But for the multi generational Mormon family, the destructive cult personality is merely a “way of life”. Uncle Larry and Aunt Millie are all Mormon. Everyone is also Mormon in this familial environment...
The church does promote family values and unity. No one can deny that the family is paramount within the church. I know, there are many here that would dispute the church’s fame for family values... for some of the following reasons:
1. The parents are kept busy all week with various callings and assignments (home/visiting teaching, callings, service assignments, Cannery, sugar beet farm, chicken farm or any other LDS owned business service, cleaning the chapel, moving entire households w/ furniture in and out of the ward, visiting the sick). Some of these items are not in and of themselves bad things. I believe in serving outside of ones self. But the implication that these items are required and the guilt associated with NOT doing them or turning down an opportunity to do them is what I consider cult like. There should be no guilt. Anyhow. Guilt does abound in the church in excessive amounts. Hence the stats for Prozac type drugs in Utah are excessively high. Bottom line if the parents are busy being bishops and relief society presidents the kids get left on the back burner. This is most unfortunate. This was my experience growing up.
2. Sexual abuse has happened in the church, and in LDS families. Thus a black mark could be assigned to the church on this alone. I am not sure how far above average occurrence this abuse is happening. I don’t deny it happens but the question could be is the LDS church more guilty than normal. Caveat. I am not saying sex abuse is normal. I abhor sex abuse. I think I am clear as to what I am saying. Definitely, sex abuse negates the family values.
3. Families are Forever yet if one of your family members leaves the church or becomes wayward, there is a definite tendency for the TBM portion of the family to shun the “straying” family member. This is hypocritical even though article of faith #10 says [Mormons] believe that all can worship however they please. Such intolerance and hypocrisy puts into question the true groupthink of Mormon family values.
There are many more reasons I am sure. I am just trying to display an open approach to this.
So I guess while not necessarily a destructive cult, what I am concluding is that it is a Cult... for the entire family.
Thoughts and comments appreciated
Subject: A few things to chew on...
Date: Feb 03 13:36 2005
Author: Grape Nephi
George Swope, a psychologist, concluded in a study (1980) that the following types of people are taken in by cults:
1. Idealists who want to know God better.
2. The innocent who naively believe that a cult messiah is God’s divine representative.
3. Inquisitive young college or high school students who suffer from severe and demoralizing family and personal problems.
4. Independent young people who run away from home seeking freedom from parental restrictions and authority.
5. Identity seekers having trouble believing in themselves.
6. Insecure youth looking for new experiences and a clarification of their own identity.
I think items 1 & 2 apply most to the Mormon Cult. Part of the draw of the Mormon Cult is the answer to the questions revolving around where we came from before birth and where we go after we die. Most people love their families and the claim that we’ll be together after death is comforting. And so once you have a person involved and have only given them the outer shell of belief, once hooked, it is then easier to start to feed them the “deeper doctrines”. Pavlos stated (1982, p 27) “A gradual conversion may take place over several months or years. However, it must entail an emerging strong commitment to religious values and beliefs and it must encompass evidence of behavioral commitment to the religious group’s dogma and its practices. This is why a member is pressured by the group to act on his or her religious values and beliefs. Duane a Windemiller (1960) finds striking similarities between brainwashing, as practiced by the Chinese Communists, and techniques applied in religious conversion.”
Think about some of the practices in the Mormon Cult. Once a month testimony meeting that is taken part in while fasting, thus weakening the mind. The droning temple endowment ceremonies where over and over you commit yourself to the Church and not to God. Primary, where the children are heavily indoctrinated and hear the same things over and over again. Everyone here can probably add to the list.
Commitment and “conversion” happens on three levels in my estimation. You have the convert level where the newly converted believes they are in Christ’s church and that a special leader speaks for Christ and God. The second level I call the church Mormon level and that is where the person has committed enough to accept callings in the church and begins to pay tithing and live the church commandments. The last level is temple Mormonism and that is like becoming “clear” in Scientology. Once a person has started regular attendance at the temple they are fully drawn into the Cult and have committed to give everything to the Mormon Cult. The last covenant made in the temple is not to God but to the Mormon Cult. The following is from the 1990 version of the endowment and is the same as in earlier versions that I remember taking part in:
“You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the Law of Consecration as contained in the Doctrine and Covenants, in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion.”
Once you’ve put on the garment and made this covenant you are now enthralled fully by the Cult.
I hope this helps.
Subject: “WE ARE NOT A CULT!” is ALWAYS the ‘battle cry’ of anyone IN a cult!
I have taken a Mormon missionary down a couple of notches more than once by asking him about "reformed Egyptian", or the Nauvoo Expositor, or the King Follett sermon.
Mormonism has some pretty weird beliefs, but I do not see any reason why they would necessarily preclude someone from holding political office, and a solid conservative Mormon candidate would certainly get my vote.
I support Gingrich and would vote for Santorum, notwithstanding that they both believe that God is incarnate in a disc of pressed flour, and that it's necessary for salvation that we periodically eat Him.
There are some on this board who don't want Romney as president partially because of his liberalism, but mostly because it would be good for the PR of the LDS and would make them look more mainstream. If that's your position feel free to say so. But I'm not interested in hearing Jane Q. Freeper say "Obama will attack Romney's religion"....that is concern trolling pure and simple.
Too bad they never seem to have any of thise running.