Posted on 01/16/2012 12:35:07 PM PST by RedRover
Feel free to expound on your third post since signing on at FR. Have you followed the cases or read any of the current articles? Have you ever been signed on under another screen name?
Welcome gibsosa, you’re on!
1. Staff Sergeant Wuterich was told the buildings were hostile, whether the Major thinks buildings can be hostile or not. In other words, there were hostiles using those buildings. This information is from previous posts, so it is not explicitly stated in this article by Helms.
2. The order was given to clear those buildings. That means only one thing: enter the buildings and eliminate the threat. Since they were receiving fire from the buildings, it makes sense to clear them. Since being shot at is a sign of hostiles, then the building contained hostiles; i.e., “it” was hostile.
3. Urban warfare from room to room (”clear”) does not mean knocking on any door and asking if there are hostiles present. Positive identification cannot possibly mean that. That would be forcing our troops to operate in a manner sure to get them killed.
4. That means in any engagement that our troops are under the provision of the ROEs in effect that they must defend themselves AND attack the enemy.
5. The most important fact is that Wuterich was ordered to “clear south”.
6. The most important puzzle is that we are told Wuterich did not issue one single order the entire day. Does that mean he was simply talking when he allegedly said, “shoot first; ask questions later” or words to that effect??? For all I know he was giving himself a pep talk, just sharing out loud, or going over out loud how to interpret the ROEs.
7. As I understand it, there were different ROEs issued shortly after this period of the war. It would be interesting to contrast those with the Haditha ROE to see how PID is expanded upon in those newer ROEs. That would indicate that PID meant something different at war period 1 and war period 2.
>>> The most important fact is that Wuterich was ordered to “clear south”.<<<
That’s the way I see it, Chap. The ROE as they existed AT THAT TIME were followed by SSgt Wuterich. “Clear south” was an unambigious order for Marines in Haditha and it satisfied the rule to “contact your next higher commander for decision”.
Rule 1.a. on the CFLCC card(see Nat’s article above) is the key. That and Lt.Kallops testimony:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2832941/posts
PID is a reasonable certainty that the proposed target is a legitimate military target.
PID as defined at the time of the Haditha incident didn't mean you had to be eyeball-to-eyeball with an attacker to fire your weapon.
As you say, ROE became more constrictive after the Haditha incident and now it's said there are troops in Afghanistan who are basically refusing to even go out on patrol.
Good post, xzins. The ROE were followed and Major Navin’s testimony trying to say they weren’t is bogus.
Yeah, “The Battle of Haditha” was made by a British leftist dork named Nicholas Broomfield. He dramatized the Time magazine/Murtha version of Haditha and called it the truth.
Unfortunately, a bunch of unhappy inactive Marines were involved in the film. Can’t really blame them for shooting for movie stardom, but they ended up stabbing their brothers in the back do so. So I guess I do blame them.
BTW, Broomfield continues to promote his film while railing against the “failed prosecutions” and calling for SSgt Wuterich to be drawn and quartered. So much for the leftists’ bleeding heart concern for “the rights of the accused”. Justice for cop killers but not for members of the armed services. Leftists got their massacre and they’re sticking with it—no matter what the facts actually are.
Thanks! Appreciate the effort all of you ping folks go through.
Sorry to say the answer is "yes and no".
There was a lot of fighting going on around the ambush site that day. So the first problem for an investigation is trying to sort out who SSgt Wuterich and his squad is supposed to have killed and who was killed by other action.
Former sergeant Salinas testified this week that he killed somebody running outside one of the houses. Former lieutenant Kallop testified that members of the Iraqi army (embedded with the Marines) were shooting at people and that an insurgent was shot after the incident by the Marines not far from the ambush site. Eight hundred meters up the road, four dismembered bodies were recovered after the airstrike. More were recovered later.
So an investigator has to deal with a fair number of bodies, many without heads (to be blunt) and no way to tie their deaths back to an actor. As far as I know, all the dead ended up in an Iraqi morgue so identifying the dead is based on the claims of Iraqi families (I don't mean that I doubt the claims, but I'm trying to suggest that a battlezone makes for a lousy crime scene).
Based on family claims, we do know the names of Iraqis killed in two houses cleared by SSgt Wuterich and his squad. But we don't know that SSgt Wuterich directly shot or grenaded any of them. There is no real forensic evidence which is why NCIS will have to rely on reconstructions.
The only people we know for sure that SSgt Wuterich shot that day were the five individuals at the white car. In the original charge sheet, the specification read that he did "willfully and unlawfully kill one or more unknown persons, located near a white car, at or near the intersection of Routes Chestnut and Viper, by shooting them with a loaded M16A4 service rifle."
So we have dead, identified Iraqis, killed by SSgt Wuterich's squad but we don't know if SSgt Wuterich himself actually killed any of them or not.
And we have another group of unidentified Iraqis that SSgt Wuterich says he shot but there is no evidence that his shots killed them (former sergeant Dela Cruz was also shooting).
And that he’s charged with 9, not 24?
The original charge sheet didn't list 24 dead Iraqis despite the fact that the Corps said "24 men, women, and children" had been killed.
The charge sheet for the court martial only listed charges with no specifications. There are nine counts of voluntary manslaughter against SSgt Wuterich and the assumption has been that each count must be for an individual.
It's hard to get to the bottom of this without the new specifications and the USMC isn't answering any questions.
I posted the charge sheet for the court martial HERE. I added the specifications in the original charge sheet--but that's not to say they are still operative specifications.
Hope all that (or most of that anyway) makes sense. We'll basically need to wait and hear more during the trial to know just who SSgt Wuterich is charged with killing and on what evidence. But this is the best we can do for now.
Thank you!!
akk...Be nice people...WHAT would a kangaroo court featuring a dog and pony show be...without CLOWNS???
vetposter
Since Jan 14, 2012
I smell ozone.
IBTZ
you signed up to free republic yesterday just to say today that a Haditha marine is “clearly guilty” when the trial just began?
All the others have been cleared or exhonerated.
And you declare Staff Sergeant Wuterich guilty.
Is your last name Murtha Jr.?
Our pleasure. To live is to ping (and vice versa).
Thank you for this info, and taking the time to explain it so well.
Thanks, Girl. That is a fact about Sokoloski and Pool.
Should have a piece in an hour or so from Nat on today. Sgt Maj Sax put another nail in the prosecution’s coffin even though he was their witness.
The govt says it will conclude either Friday or Monday
although it still has 43 witness on its list. Not sure how long the defense plans to present its case.
Those 43 witnesses left for the prosecution must not have much to say because I don’t see how the prosecution can predict the defenses cross if they did.
Maybe the prosecution has decided against calling witnesses that only help the defense. :-)
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