Yep...I was thinking a reflective hex sign...
Posted on 01/12/2012 10:21:58 PM PST by george76
MAYFIELD, Ky. - A group of Amish men were sent to jail in western Kentucky Thursday for refusing to pay fines for breaking a state highway law that requires their horse-drawn buggies to be marked with orange reflective triangles.
The men have a religious objection to the bright orange signs, which they say are flashy and conflict with their pledge to live low-key and religious lives.
...
"I totally understand your objection," the judge told Byler. "But you're in violation, and it's not up to me to change the law. It doesn't really matter what I think about any of this."
(Excerpt) Read more at cbsnews.com ...
I grew up in NW Pennsylvania Amish country. Buggies were a common sight, but being flat black in color they were almost impossible to see at night. When they started putting the reflective triangles on the back of the buggy it helped considerably. Now some even have battery powered tail lights.
These aren’t new style but old style Amish.
>> I thought there was some case out of Miami dealing with animal sacrifice and prohibiting it. Could it be that the law has been upheld but not enforced?
We have traffic laws in Miami, too - they aren’t enforced either.
… a young girl looked back at me and gave a slow wave …
About a dozen years ago my late wife talked me into moving back to Pennsylvania. It was a rural county and heavily Amish. We’d ride the back roads just enjoying the scenery. There were a number of times when we’d be passing an Amish farm and everyone would stop work and come to the road to see the Harley. They’d wave, we’d stop and introductions were made. It was a refreshing change from the “bird salute” we had in other States.
Yep...I was thinking a reflective hex sign...
Which reminds me of an old story:
Recently, Justice Ginsburg and her former colleagues at the ACLU became especially exercised about the great number of executions occurring in Texas so they determined to send one of their young law clerks down there to work undercover and expose these rednecks. Using her influence, the Justice secured a summer internship with a West Texas judge of well known conservative impulse.
At the end of the summer the old judge called the young man into his chambers and asked, " Son, you got any questions about how we administer justice here in West Texas?"
"Yes your honor I do, I would like to know why it is you execute all these horse thieves but you let all these murderers go free?"
His honor expectorated into a spittoon and allowed, "well son, out here in West Texas we got a lot of men that need killing, but we ain't got no horses that need stealing."
Do they have to put the sign on the back of their horse when they are riding with a saddle? ;-)
:)
We have traffic laws in Miami, too - they aren’t enforced either.
Hey, didn't Miami just make #1?
;)
And that is the real point here. The article states that they are looking at gray reflective tape on the wagons. Why not work with the Amish to come up with something that allows them to be seen at nite without violating their convictions? How hard is common sense?
I do appreciate the judge though for following the law and not trying to write it himself.
Statist? That's a stretch. If you believe in any government at all, traffic laws for communal roadways would certainly be on the acceptable list. Its flat out dangerous to all involved to place a large black wooden box full of people (Amish carriage) on a highway at night without any lights or reflectors. I would certainly consider it criminally negligent.
I don't think you want to be in the car that kills an Amish family (and or yourself) do you?
Not all safety laws are a heinous move toward statism. Are you going to allow people to drive on the left as well?
The old order has accepted the need for the orange reflectors in Iowa, Missouri and Arkansas.
“...perhaps letting them paint a reflecting paint sign on their buggies would solve this dispute....”
Yep...I was thinking a reflective hex sign...
Actually I think it is the role of judges, the only proper role of judges, to void laws improperly passed by a legislature. I'm not saying that I'm sure that would be the case with this triangle law here, but when the Supreme Court decides that an Act of Congress is unconstitutional and voids it, that is decidedly different from ordering a remedy (e.g. forced busing) which effectively becomes law.
ML/NJ
If Bubba were to pick a fight with the average middle aged Amish man, he would receive an unpleasant surprise.
“But when one decides to practice medicine one has not made a decision which submits him to that degree of regulation.”
I think that is in error.
Medical personnel, e.g., are subject to the draft in three ways -
The regular draft,
The Special Medical Draft,
And now, The Civilian Medical Corps Draft included in Obamacare.
All of this is in exchange for the “priviledge of practicing medicine.”
Amish farmers are off the grid, but for decades they have generally permitted diesel-powered generators in the barn to power refrigerated milk tanks. This was a concession to public health concerns, and thus a benefit to the community: it preserved their livelihood. When reflective triangles are perceived by the community elders as beneficial—say, because they prevent unnecessary deaths by enabling motorists to avoid rear-ending a dark, unlit buggy in the middle of the night—they'll be permitted. As other posters have already pointed out, some Amish communities already permit reflecters and battery-powered lights.
Also, the Amish drive black buggies and wear dark, plain clothing because of their tradition of modesty. Cars and clothing are amongst the most visible status symbols, and they wish to avoid class distinctions between them. It seems to me that if every Amish buggy had a bright orange triangle on it, that wouldn't be a problem, since no one would be any more "flashy" than anyone else. But, to be fair, I'm not necessarily thinking with their logic.
You quite blew away any consideration that this long extant, law abiding people group was overrun, by turning this into a strawman about their religion. How would you like if Islam overran you?
Dangerous because others chose to drive cars. If everyone drove buggies it would be safer still than having some drive cars and some drive buggies with orange stickers wouldn't it?
Assuming you are not prepared to force everyone to drive buggies, then why are you selective about the liberty that you oppose do to safety?
The amish here in Lancaster have no problem using the triangles. They would be roadkill without them!
They got about 1 day jail time per $50 of fine.
While most annual estimates peg a year in jail as costing $30k (or more)...or $82 per day.
By all reasonable comparisons it appears the thoughtful judge lengthend the stays to make it particularly painful in this case even for people of very limited income, however it still isn’t cost effective for the tax payer. The tax payer is paying $82 per day, to in essences forgive $50 per day.
So you support the Muslims who want exemptions from airport security for religious reasons?
So you support the Muslims who want exemptions from airport security for religious reasons?
And if these guys really want to live low-key, humble lives why were they in court fighting over stupid things and getting written up in the media all over the world?
Guess these Kentucky Amish are a bit uppity. No Problemo. The Law has a method for fixin that.
After 30 days in the hole these boys will be more than happy to slap the reflector on the family buggy.
And everybody LIVED happily ever after.
Got to teach these uppity Amish a lesson
After all, how do you expect people to see that there is a HORSE and BUGGY on the street if there is not a red triangle on it.
People should be requred to wear orange triangles too.
Mark 12:17
I can imagine driving a buggy at night on the street with no lights and no reflectors is very dangerous. Perhaps some kind of less garish reflectors might be a good solution. I would guess that the religious principles of drawing undue attention would not be violated by reflectors that were not very noticeable except at night with headlights shining on them.
I’ve come up on a buggie at night, especially this time of year when the days are short and I’m glad they have the orange reflectors. I can’t imagine driving on a windy country road a night and coming up on a slow moving horse and carriage with no reflectors
Interestingly one day I stopped at a grocery store near work that has special “Buggie Only” parking and, I’m not making this up, there was an open buggie parked that had a bright red gasoline can in full view in the back.
That was almost as strange as the afternoon I was leaving a golf driving range in NE Maryland and saw a pickup truck some sort of work truck, drive up with two black guys and a young Amish guy. They came to play putt putt.
Less you forget, one of the most important Amendments to the Constitution was the 10th (states' rights). This is a state law issue and not federal nor religious. I have and will always be a States' Rights supporter.
As I mentioned above, their rights stop where it infringes on others' rights, especially when it comes to the right to life.
My words on a public forum will never damage the "reputation" nor the honor of Veterans better than me, and I so recognize many are. I've spent years and resources honoring those men and women. I still do as recent as Christmas, not to mention being a Patriot Guard Rider for our fallen military and Veteran memorials. You don't know me and what I do. But here's a clue, check out VetsCoR and see how I hurt the "reputation" of our Vets (\sarcasm).
You're wrong. I didn't create a "strawman". This entire issue is about their religious beliefs and refusing to obey State law regarding basic safety for all. Maybe I didn't need to get so crappy about it, but I am sick of people using their own personal beliefs (guess you didn't catch my acknowledgement of the Amish peaceful ways in contrast to Islamists) to break law, hate, fight, kill, and create wars.
Hopefully, you saw my post above about being a States' Rights advocate and this IS a State issue. So don't throw the federal Constitution at me. They are breaking law as set forth by the State, and should adhere to it as all must, unless it's changed.
And before you write back, just know I am also an advocate of lessor government and lessor laws. I'm as conservative as they come almost to the point of libertarian. Again, an individual's rights stop at the point that it infringes on others' rights.
Sheesh, let them put a sign or reflective tape on the back of their buggies so they don't get their innocent children killed or make someone else swerve off the road and get killed or maimed. This is basic safety and preservation of life, which takes priority over their religious beliefs, as it should.
Yes, I'm a bigot when it comes to religion versus the right to live! Maybe we should do away with the laws that prevent yelling fire in a theater, or like some poster above, we should be able to drive on the left side of the road because we so desire. Have the last say. I'm done.
I missed this comment a week ago.
OBVIOUSLY, a Court which follows its own precedents in Casey v. Planned Parenthood, Lawrence v. Texas, and especially Romer v. Evans will have to legalize polygamy, IF they ever agree to hear a case.
I suspect that, given the fact that such a decision will have the potential to reduce their power permanently, that they will not grant cert to any polygamy cases, at least not in the near future.
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