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Amish men jailed for refusing to pay buggy fines
ap ^ | January 12, 2012

Posted on 01/12/2012 10:21:58 PM PST by george76

MAYFIELD, Ky. - A group of Amish men were sent to jail in western Kentucky Thursday for refusing to pay fines for breaking a state highway law that requires their horse-drawn buggies to be marked with orange reflective triangles.

The men have a religious objection to the bright orange signs, which they say are flashy and conflict with their pledge to live low-key and religious lives.

...

"I totally understand your objection," the judge told Byler. "But you're in violation, and it's not up to me to change the law. It doesn't really matter what I think about any of this."

(Excerpt) Read more at cbsnews.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Extended News; Government; News/Current Events; US: Illinois; US: Indiana; US: Kentucky; US: Ohio; US: Pennsylvania; US: Tennessee
KEYWORDS: amish
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1 posted on 01/12/2012 10:22:01 PM PST by george76
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To: george76

They shouldn’t let them drive their buggies until they comply. What they’re doing is dangerous.


2 posted on 01/12/2012 10:24:49 PM PST by jackibutterfly (The American Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.)
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To: jackibutterfly

Nobody is quite wearing a halo in this dispute.


3 posted on 01/12/2012 10:27:29 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (Sometimes progressives find their scripture in the penumbra of sacred bathroom stall writings (Tzar))
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To: jackibutterfly

Really?


4 posted on 01/12/2012 10:29:56 PM PST by svcw (For the new year: you better toughen up, if you are going to continue to be stupid.)
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To: jackibutterfly

That’s statist thinking. Shame on you.


5 posted on 01/12/2012 10:41:26 PM PST by krb (Obama is a miserable failure.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

I can see other groups coming out now.....being of a particular religious group that frowns on lights of any type....so they believe the removal of tail lights is necessary. Another group frowns on power steering, so they remove the belt to their power steering. Another group believes that seatbelts are a religious issue, so they remove the seatbelts. Another group believes that glass of any type is a problem, so they remove all windows on a car.

We are approaching a point in American society where people are going to be focusing on just about every single issue and making themselves into all kinds of religious groups.


6 posted on 01/12/2012 10:45:26 PM PST by pepsionice
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To: george76

Do they go to an Amish prison or are they sent to a real prison with electric lights, a TV, power door locks and a roommate named Bubba who has not seen a real woman since the Carter administration?


7 posted on 01/12/2012 10:53:03 PM PST by trumandogz
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To: pepsionice

This kind of talk — in this case the erection of strawmen — is exactly why I said nobody has a halo.


8 posted on 01/12/2012 10:54:45 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (Sometimes progressives find their scripture in the penumbra of sacred bathroom stall writings (Tzar))
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To: krb

In some cases the Amish have been around there far longer than the modern high speed roads and highways that paved over their horse and carriage dirt roads. On the other hand, it is not a Christian thing to put a non biblically mandated lifestyle statement ahead of the welfare of your neighbors. On a third hand (are we growing an octopus?) it seems too little study has been paid to scientifically viable alternatives to those gaudy orange triangles.


9 posted on 01/12/2012 11:00:23 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (Sometimes progressives find their scripture in the penumbra of sacred bathroom stall writings (Tzar))
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To: george76

Finaly, they Amish terrorists got busted at this!:)


10 posted on 01/12/2012 11:05:07 PM PST by cunning_fish
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To: george76

Am I the only one who thinks a judge saying, “It’s not up to me to change the law” is incredibly refreshing?


11 posted on 01/12/2012 11:19:41 PM PST by JennysCool (My hypocrisy goes only so far)
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To: HiTech RedNeck
In some cases the Amish have been around there far longer than the modern high speed roads and highways that paved over their horse and carriage dirt roads.

Last summer, I think, I made a gas stop on I-80 in western PA, and getting back on I pulled out behind a flatbed wagon being driven by a young Amish woman with a load of Amish kids in the back. They were crossing under the highway on a road which was a heavily traveled two lane highway itself. Normally I bridle at every infinitesimal delay in these situations, as irrational as it is to do so, as I often contemplate, but here I was moved to calm myself, and I kept a respectful distance. There was a red traffic light, and as I sat behind the wagon looking at the children, a young girl looked back at me and gave a slow wave, which I returned. For me it was a unique experience.

12 posted on 01/12/2012 11:21:17 PM PST by dr_lew
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To: JennysCool

This is the job of their seniors in appellate courts. (Duck’n & runn’n)


13 posted on 01/12/2012 11:28:05 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (Sometimes progressives find their scripture in the penumbra of sacred bathroom stall writings (Tzar))
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To: HiTech RedNeck
The judge is perfectly right in this case. It has long been the law that religious beliefs do not justify failure to observe an otherwise reasonable (not necessarily perfect) law reasonably calculated to further the general police powers.

Thus, for example, Rastafarians have been prohibited from sacrificing animals in furtherance of their religious observance. Nor can Mormons practice polygamy in furtherance of their tenets.

The harder cases come when the state attempts to compel medical practitioners to participate in abortions contrary to their religious beliefs or pharmacists to sell the morning-after pill.

If one considers the cases on the principle that driving on the highways is a privilege which the state can regulate reasonably, the Amish should be made to comply. If one applies that principle to those who choose to engage in the business of medical treatment, nurses should be made to participate in abortions.

On the other hand, if one analyzes the cases on the basis that the nurses are being affirmatively required to violate their religious principles, they should not be compelled to participate in abortions. One can say that the mere participation in an industry does not deprive one of the freedom of religion when the regulation is not directly related to public safety or the police power. It is related to a social good perceived by the legislature, to wit, that nurses should be properly trained in committing abortions but that is hardly a compelling justification to deprive one of religious liberty guaranteed in the First Amendment.

We can play with the idea that it is within the state's power to prohibit activity such as animal sacrifice or polygamy and religious belief does not prevail against the general police power. There is, after all, an argument to be made justifying laws against animal sacrifice and polygamy which, whether one is persuaded or not, cannot be said to be wholly unreasonable.

But a distinction might be made that the state has less power affirmatively to compel people to do something, such as commit abortions, than it does to prohibit activity, such as driving without required markings-especially when that activity is connected to a privilege, driving on the roads, rather than a right, such as free speech. We can say that when one ventures onto the roads he makes a choice which submits him to regulations for the general welfare, such as driving on the right, stopping on red, and having tail lights and markings. But when one decides to practice medicine one has not made a decision which submits him to that degree of regulation. The contrary argument, of course, is that a nurse who was not trained in abortion might subsequently engage in an abortion and cause a patient harm. Would we extend that argument to cover euthanasia?


14 posted on 01/12/2012 11:29:31 PM PST by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: krb

“That’s statist thinking. Shame on you.”

Oh, puhlease. Their stupid religious beliefs stops where it interferes with other peoples rights...such as not swerving into a ditch and getting dead or maimed or running them over and killing them and getting sued and living with such a monumental emotional disaster. Get a grip. Let them put a stupid sign on the back on their 18th century carriages. Sheesh. That is not “statist”, it’s just commonsense.

And before you attack, I was a chairman of Veterans for Constitutional Restoration (VetsCor). If you don’t know what that is, look on the sidebar of this site or on the front page.


15 posted on 01/12/2012 11:30:27 PM PST by A Navy Vet (An Oath is Forever)
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To: nathanbedford

And yet allowances have been made in the past, at least, for things like native American Indian ceremonial hallucinogenic mushrooms. Reasonable will differ from one court to another, and it’s often at the appellate level that such differences come down to brass tacks.


16 posted on 01/12/2012 11:34:16 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (Sometimes progressives find their scripture in the penumbra of sacred bathroom stall writings (Tzar))
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To: HiTech RedNeck

No kiddin’! :-)


17 posted on 01/12/2012 11:35:34 PM PST by JennysCool (My hypocrisy goes only so far)
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To: HiTech RedNeck
Right.

The interesting appellate decision will be how the court handles polygamy in the wake of any ruling permitting gay marriage. Political correctness favors gay marriage but opposes polygamy. Logic does not inherently make that distinction. That is never been an impediment to judicial activists in the past and it will be interesting to see what emanations and penumbras they find the to justify gay marriage and continue to prohibit polygamy.


18 posted on 01/12/2012 11:41:27 PM PST by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: george76

...perhaps letting them paint a reflecting paint sign on their buggies would solve this dispute....seems other Amish in other states have no problem using the familiar triangle


19 posted on 01/12/2012 11:42:38 PM PST by Doogle (((USAF.68-73..8th TFW Ubon Thailand..never store a threat you should have eliminated)))
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To: nathanbedford

As usual, you have posted much to think about in a coherent and well-formed argument. I don’t get a chance to thank you for your posts as often as I’d like, but I’m taking this opportunity to let you know they are always mulled over and appreciated.


20 posted on 01/12/2012 11:44:36 PM PST by JennysCool (My hypocrisy goes only so far)
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To: nathanbedford

Polygamists have a much more logical case than does the gay marriage crowd.


21 posted on 01/12/2012 11:45:44 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (Sometimes progressives find their scripture in the penumbra of sacred bathroom stall writings (Tzar))
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To: JennysCool

Thanks


22 posted on 01/12/2012 11:46:41 PM PST by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: Doogle

A gadget with rotating vanes which, at the throw of a lever either shows plain black or the standard orange triangle, might be copacetic with some Amish. It might be flipped to the “gaudy” position for Caesar’s roads, and flipped back to all-black for off-road use.


23 posted on 01/12/2012 11:50:56 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (Sometimes progressives find their scripture in the penumbra of sacred bathroom stall writings (Tzar))
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To: nathanbedford

There were some stories about today speaking about dealing with gay marriage divorces as if they were different than “straight marriage” divorces. Just like liberals — all of their concerns must be somehow different from the “mainstream” — lest they get cross or something.


24 posted on 01/12/2012 11:52:34 PM PST by JennysCool (My hypocrisy goes only so far)
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To: george76
In this case the Amish are defying the instruction of the Holy Ghost in at least three places:

"Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: as free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God." (1 Peter 2:13-16)

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. ... Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: ... " (read Romans 13:1-6 for fuller details)

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." (Galatians 5:22-23)

This regulation is not unreasonable when the Amish are sharing the highway designed for two tons of hurtling steel, not for their mode of transportation. If they want to obey God, let them submit to this reasonable regulation, act like Christians, pay their fines for blatant disobedience; and shut up, be law-abiding, be humble toward men and meek toward God; and follow the law set forth for a peaceable, just, and safe society. This is not requiring them to compromise any Bible-based principles, only some overstatements of conspicuousness in their traditions.

The judge is eminently correct; they are dead wrong in this.

25 posted on 01/12/2012 11:54:20 PM PST by imardmd1 (Ps. 107:2 Let the redeemed of the Lord say so ...!)
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To: george76

Inconspicuous signs would sort of defeat the purpose.


26 posted on 01/12/2012 11:55:37 PM PST by Telepathic Intruder (The right thing is not always the popular thing)
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To: pepsionice

Just for the record the government has no business forcing people to wear seat belts. Forcing manufactures to put them in cars is one thing. Forcing people to actually wear them is unconstitutional and a violation of the powers of the feds. In fact, mandating their placement in cars may also be a violation. I see nothing in the constitution that gives the feds the right to do that. States yes on forcing them to be in cars, but not feds. States don’t have the right to tell me to wear one however, even though they do it, it is unconstitutional. Just as unconstitutional as telling me I have to buy health insurance.


27 posted on 01/13/2012 12:04:45 AM PST by calex59
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To: pepsionice
Another group frowns on power steering, so they remove the belt to their power steering.

Are there laws anywhere requiring powering steering?

28 posted on 01/13/2012 12:09:45 AM PST by ElkGroveDan (My tagline is in the shop.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck
Clip clop,clip clop, clip clop,*BANG BANG*clippety clop, clippety clop...... Amish drive by
29 posted on 01/13/2012 12:21:43 AM PST by Doogle (((USAF.68-73..8th TFW Ubon Thailand..never store a threat you should have eliminated)))
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To: HiTech RedNeck

“In some cases the Amish have been around there far longer than the modern high speed roads and highways that paved over their horse and carriage dirt roads. On the other hand, it is not a Christian thing to put a non biblically mandated lifestyle statement ahead of the welfare of your neighbors. On a third hand (are we growing an octopus?) it seems too little study has been paid to scientifically viable alternatives to those gaudy orange triangles.”

Personally, I don’t give one sh*t about anyone’s particular time frame of religion or outlook on a supreme being. In my 62 years, I have grown so tired of people preaching their god is better than some other god or gods. I especially despise the Islam religion for their centuries old hatred of all other man-made religions, ironically including their own.

I’m an agnostic. Deal with it. You know, the world knows, and history knows nothing more than I do about a god behind this all. Other than some words written in some old books by ill-informed superstitious men who thought the world was flat and the Sun revolved around this rock, NO ONE has one ounce of proof that such a god exists.

Even if it did (which I do believe in divine design), I can’t imagine that the creator of the entire universe has some need to be worshiped. What a petty god that would be. What? He sits in golden clouds outside of our telescopes and awaits humans to beg to him? Sheesh. That is a high-school jock who needs the approval of his peers.

You can also include the astro-physicists. They can do their calculations through their entire lives, but they will never know what is behind the “big bang” theory.
Yeah, I know it’s now got a name - “singularity”. The biggest minds in the world can’t explain why and how that existed, but they had to give it a name just so their Harvard educations and doctorate thesis didn’t go to waste.

Personally, I don’t think what is behind our known universe is within our intellectual capabilities. I have believed all my life that once we reach mental self-awareness and die, that we become part of this magnificent universe, in a way we can’t understand. Read C.S. Lewis and the writer who wrote, “A Conversation With God”.

So let the Amish deal with local ordinances. I have to. So should they. Tough sh*t. Screw theirs’ and other religious beliefs. Let them live within laws for all. If the State deems them wrong, then change them. Just don’t let my wife hit a truck head on while trying to avoid some dumb ass in a horse-drawn carriage.

F*ck him and his stupid beard and silly beliefs. Same for Christians, Jews, Buddas, Hindus, (although I like their peace beliefs...not so much for Islamists). Too bad DHS, arrest me for saying that.

Rights stop where it endangers or infringes on other peoples’ rights. That is what Madison, Randolf, Rutledge, and others tried to say back in 1787 at the Constitutional Convention. May be a State issue, but the principles are the same.


30 posted on 01/13/2012 12:47:22 AM PST by A Navy Vet (An Oath is Forever)
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To: JennysCool

Nope. That was my first reaction.


31 posted on 01/13/2012 12:52:04 AM PST by BuckeyeTexan (Man is not free unless government is limited. ~Ronald Reagan)
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To: jackibutterfly

***they shouldn’t let them drive their buggies until they comply. What they’re doing is dangerous***

LOL. Yeah, they’ve been doing it for 300 years, but now a committee has determined it’s ‘dangerous.’


32 posted on 01/13/2012 12:57:48 AM PST by Byron_the_Aussie (Michelle Obama, The Early Years: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBYGxBlFOSU)
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To: jackibutterfly

***they shouldn’t let them drive their buggies until they comply. What they’re doing is dangerous***

LOL. Yeah, they’ve been doing it for 300 years, but now a committee has determined it’s ‘dangerous.’


33 posted on 01/13/2012 12:58:00 AM PST by Byron_the_Aussie (Michelle Obama, The Early Years: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBYGxBlFOSU)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

“And yet allowances have been made in the past, at least, for things like native American Indian ceremonial hallucinogenic mushrooms.”

Apples and oranges. A big difference from some people out on a reservation doing poyote(sp) and someone traveling on a highway in a dark carriage with tons of steel bearing down on them.

Sheesh, let the citizens of the same roads see them, even if they have to have a reflective triangle. There rights to live their lives stop where it endangers other drivers.


34 posted on 01/13/2012 12:59:20 AM PST by A Navy Vet (An Oath is Forever)
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To: A Navy Vet
...tough sh*t. Screw theirs’ and other religious beliefs...

Classy. Hey Navy Vet - shut up now, before your personal bigotry damages the reputation of far better vets than you.

35 posted on 01/13/2012 1:02:22 AM PST by Byron_the_Aussie (Michelle Obama, The Early Years: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBYGxBlFOSU)
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Judge said it straight. It could be about 100 or 150 years ago worse than than it presently is I guess.

Jungspringers gots to get their brain around what’s worth fighting against.


36 posted on 01/13/2012 1:07:04 AM PST by raygun (http://bastiat.org/en/the_law DOT html)
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The Rumspringers want to make a political statement: leave us alone.

My response, as ruler of the world in my mind, we’ll leave your corpse alone when Joe Redneck blasts down the road in their red-neck-truck and clops your asses off into your fields, and speeds away, eh?

Now if ANY of your Amish equipment comes into my vehicle passenger compartment - I or ANY passenger(s) suffer the slightest injury whatsoever - I, my passengers and a whole fleetload of lawyers will sue your ass 100’ directly into the ground.


37 posted on 01/13/2012 1:23:58 AM PST by raygun (http://bastiat.org/en/the_law DOT html)
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To: george76
Public safety trumps superstition every time...
38 posted on 01/13/2012 1:30:14 AM PST by BigCinBigD
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To: Byron_the_Aussie

Actually it wasn’t until the automobile became more of a force on the road that the horse and buggy became dangerous. The statement referring to what they are doing is dangerous does not refer to them driving the horse and buggy per se but more so not following the traffic laws that is set forth by the state government.

I grew up in Ohio with a much larger Amish population than PA or even KY. Driving the backroads we were constantly remindeded that Amish drove buggies and to watch out for them. nonetheless, you would hear about how some driver of a car plowed into the back of the buggy/carriage and killed the the occupants of the buggy. The driver of the car usually came out unscathed. This went on continously and still does. So yes, horse and buggies have become dangerous on roads that share them with cars. Usually the speed limit on these back roads exceed 45 MPH. So here you have a buggy maybe doing a speed of less than 10 mph and a car doing 45 mph and over. You do the math. The horse and buggy has become a hazard on the roads which makes them dangerous.

To give credit where credit is due, the local area usually puts up Horse and buggy yellow diamond signs alerting car drivers that this is an area heavily traveld by the Amish. It isn’t a committee that has determined thew horse and buggy has become dangerous in a modern era of cars. They became dangerous because they are slow and have become a road hazard to the drivers of cars and trucks. But just like entering a school xing, when entering in an area where there is heavy traffic of horse and buggies, its up to the driver to remain vigiliant and alert. Most of all to be ever cautious and slow down when coming upon and passing these carriages.


39 posted on 01/13/2012 2:02:09 AM PST by zaxtres
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To: A Navy Vet
written in some old books by ill-informed superstitious men who thought the world was flat and the Sun revolved around this rock

I don't remember reading those verses. In fact the opposite is true. However there was a church that misinterpreted and imprisoned Galileo for advocating heliocentricity and that may be where the misconception is.

40 posted on 01/13/2012 2:05:54 AM PST by BipolarBob (I don't mind you shooting at me, Frank, but take it easy on the Bacardi!)
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To: nathanbedford

>> Rastafarians have been prohibited from sacrificing animals in furtherance of their religious observance.

They should move to Miami-Dade County - no problem here. The Santeras do it all the time.


41 posted on 01/13/2012 2:36:01 AM PST by QBFimi (When gunpowder speaks, beasts listen.)
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To: george76

I feel so much safer now.

Thank God the aggressive police state has its boot firmly on their silly necks.


42 posted on 01/13/2012 2:49:33 AM PST by Bon mots ("When seconds count, the police are just minutes away...")
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To: HiTech RedNeck
it seems too little study has been paid to scientifically viable alternatives to those gaudy orange triangles.

Orange triangles don't negate bad driving(?) on the part of the occupants.

Couple of years back the wife and I were in Lancaster PA looking for some breakfast. Ahead of us was an Amish buggy and ahead of him was a traffic light. Imagine my surprise when instead of slowing down and stoping for the red light, he blew through it. We were so shocked that we told the nice girl who served us breakfast, and she said "Yeah, happens all the time."

43 posted on 01/13/2012 3:08:18 AM PST by MAexile (Bats left, votes right)
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To: george76
"I totally understand your objection," the judge told Byler. "But you're in violation, and it's not up to me to change the law. It doesn't really matter what I think about any of this."

Our government spends $ millions or billions to make sure that salmon can run upstream even with a dam. The EPA spends money to protect an endangered mosquito or lizard. Why does our government not do the same for people whose religious practices avoid technology? We should show a little respect, give them their own roads so they can practice their beliefs in peace?

Our country someday may take a few steps backward; it would be useful to have people who have skills and know how to survive without technology.

44 posted on 01/13/2012 3:22:40 AM PST by olezip
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To: HiTech RedNeck

“... like native American Indian ceremonial hallucinogenic mushrooms”

With the example you cited, other citizens aren’t in danger or a risk due to the mushroom taking. If anyone gets injured, it will be the Native. However, with the buggy situation... any person within the vehicle or in the striking vehicle could be injured/maimed/killed. The buggies are black and I can only imagine early in the morning, at dusk or night... they are VERY hard to see. I agree with the judge on this one. IMHO.


45 posted on 01/13/2012 3:24:34 AM PST by momtothree
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To: Byron_the_Aussie

no sense being PC over life and death situations

the navy vet has as much right to say what he thinks as you, me, or anyone else


46 posted on 01/13/2012 3:37:46 AM PST by SF_Redux (Sarah stands for accountablility and personal responsiblity, democrats can't live with that)
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To: olezip
Are you intimating that "law" is not what it is, and that "law" should be flexible, and should take into account judges feelings?

Are ya thinking the judge should've ruled differently (for similiar reasons), or the same for different reasons?

You seem to be equating traffic laws with environmental protection regulations, or the need for the Republic to be self sustaining in the event of a national EMP.

After all, the Constitution is a living document - produced by a bunch of ignorant agrarians - having no clue to today's contemporary issues, the documents nees a bit of tweaking by the judiciary now and then.

47 posted on 01/13/2012 3:40:13 AM PST by raygun (http://bastiat.org/en/the_law DOT html)
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To: george76
They're gonna run afoul of the FAA next:


48 posted on 01/13/2012 3:43:58 AM PST by Rebelbase
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To: QBFimi
Perhaps I misspoke. I thought there was some case out of Miami dealing with animal sacrifice and prohibiting it. Could it be that the law has been upheld but not enforced?


49 posted on 01/13/2012 3:55:01 AM PST by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: raygun
After all, the Constitution is a living document - produced by a bunch of ignorant agrarians - having no clue to today's contemporary issues, the documents nees a bit of tweaking by the judiciary now and then.

I think in this case the Constitution says the state of Kentucky can tell them they have to have that yellow triangle if they want to, and always has.

50 posted on 01/13/2012 3:59:15 AM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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