Posted on 09/18/2011 8:43:48 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
“This is not nanny state. This is giving MORE choice to the lower end of society.”
YES IT IS. Stop making excuses for the man’s screw-up. Nanny-Statism is AlWAYS done in the “name” of compassion.
What he attempted to do is indefensible. Bachmann went overboard in quoting shaky sources, but Perry was just dead wrong. You NEVER use the power of government to force of push vaccines unless there is a clear and immediate threat of life and limb. The potential of developing cancer many years down the road is NOT sufficient grounds for this.
“Once again you are conflating science with politics.”
NO, you are failing to see that the two CANNOT BE SEPERATED in certain situations. How many WRONG (unethical) things have been done in the name of science???? Ever hear of the Tuskegee experiments? How about “Operation Whitecoat” for Biological Warfare experiments?
Bottom line is that people MUST be informed and fully consent to what is going on. It is NEVER a function of government to FORCE/COERCE vacinnations when there isn’t an immediate threat to life and limb. Even then it is shaky.
Vaccinating preteen girls that “may” be exposed to a virus that “may” cause them cancer later in life IS NOT a matter of immediate public health. Using your “Nanny-State” reasoning, like I have stated, we may as well ban tobacco and alcohol....you would save many more lives than genital warts or cervical cancer will take.
And don’t argue “science” with me. I am educated in microbiology and immunology. I know the vaccine is useful, and will probably help prevent deaths....but that is beside the point. I won’t FORCE anyone to take a vaccine against their will or uninformed (anymore than I will force people to stop smoking). In all vaccination programs there is an inherrent risk verse benefits. I believe the benefits outway the risks....but that is an individual call and NOT MY PLACE or YOURS (or a governor) to make for another individual or child of a parent.
We either WILL respect parental/personal authority or we won’t. Those that “won’t” are Nanny-State types.
I don’t like the strange stories I am reading about how the vaccine causes “fill in the blank” and doubt the accuracy of such claims. It concerns me that folks are not seeking vaccinations for common pathogenic diseases for their children. However, people have a right to believe what they want.
Actually, nonsense like how Perry did this in Texas just adds to the irrational thinking. STOP TRYING TO FORCE PEOPLE TO SEE THINGS MEDICAL AS YOU THINK THEY SHOULD. You will not succeed...and you hurt your credibility in a free society.
There is never an immediate risk to most diseases. Risk occurs over a lifetime. Exposure to a disease doesn't always cause an infection. Infection doesn't always cause disease and even the most virulant diseases do not always cause death.
I am not excusing what he did. If you read my posts I said that I think he went about this in the wrong way. He should have worked through the legislature. However, he did do it to promote the ability for more people to be able to afford this expensive vaccine thereby promoting more freedom. It is not have been difficult to opt out of this vaccine. Opting in would be very difficult for the poor and lower wage earners.
“However, he did do it to promote the ability for more people to be able to afford this expensive vaccine thereby promoting more freedom. It is not have been difficult to opt out of this vaccine. Opting in would be very difficult for the poor and lower wage earners.”
NO, he did it because he owed a favor to a drug company; bottom line. Also, the word from FREEPERS from TX is that it would be very difficult to “opt out.” It is Nanny-State no matter how you try to massage it. Stop defending, in ANY way, what is not defensible.
“There is never an immediate risk to most diseases.”
Oh yes there are....cholera outbreaks and “real” major flu pandemic. Those kill in real time...not long term. In those cases, governments may (but this has to be very carefully considered) use force to vaccinate the population to stop the spread of a virulent pathogen. Again, this MUST be carefully considered and not used capriciously.
“I am sorry I will stick with the scientists at the CDC and The FDA on this one.”
Ok, what does the CDC have to say about tobacco use?
http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effects/effects_cig_smoking/index.htm
Oh this is rich....they list the following as caused by tobacco use:
Smoking causes the following cancers:1
Acute myeloid leukemia
Bladder cancer
Cancer of the cervix
Cancer of the esophagus
Kidney cancer
Cancer of the larynx (voice box)
Lung cancer
Cancer of the oral cavity (mouth)
Cancer of the pharynx (throat)
Stomach cancer
Cancer of the uterus
Oh my goodness...tobacco causes “cervical cancer.” Well you go with what CDC says. So, I guess we need to use the power of the state to ban tobacco....I mean that is the compassionate thing to do........
It is a slippery slope you are on.
You are untruthful.
The vaccine is not that old.
No tests have been available for that time.
No patients have been watched for that time.
Jim from C-Town :" On the non vaccination side we have exactly ZERO proof that anybody has been seriously injured or killed by this Vaccine. that is zero out of sixteen million plus."
You should consider taking an English class
or finishing high school.
That is not a provable statement. What you have done is slander the governor. He could have recourse against you in a court of law. As he could with Ms. Bachman if she claims that he took a bribe in a pay to play scheme. She did not. She simply alluded to it.
Here one more time are the facts.
GARDASIL is a human papillomavirus (HPV) vaccine approved by the FDA that helps protect against 4 types of HPV. In girls and young women ages 9 to 26, GARDASIL helps protect against 2 types of HPV that cause about 75% of cervical cancer cases, and 2 more types that cause 90% of genital warts cases. In boys and young men ages 9 to 26, GARDASIL helps protect against 90% of genital warts cases.
GARDASIL also helps protect girls and young women ages 9 to 26 against 70% of vaginal cancer cases and up to 50% of vulvar cancer cases.
To date there have been more than 16 million people vaccinated with no proved deaths related to the vaccinations. Side effects are mostly mild: The side effects include pain, swelling, itching, bruising, and redness at the injection site, headache, fever, nausea, dizziness, vomiting, and fainting. These are very rare.
Merck markets the drug and sells it for a profit.
Profit is good.
Gov Perry mandated that Girls age 12 be vaccinated with Gardasil. This required that insurance companies and medicaid would have to pay the cost of the vaccination. The Governor allowed for an opt out clause for any parent that wanted their child to not get the vaccine.
Prior to Gov. Perry's executive order their was already an opt in as anyone that wanted and could afford the vaccine could acquire it simply by asking their health care provider. Of course the opt in was only for those with the financial resources as the poor could not afford to get the vaccine regardless of their desires.
The Texas legislature, bullied by the same type that push anti-vaccine causes here on FR bullied the legislature to over rule the Governors edict. Since the legislature over ruled the Governor, no one where forced to be protected against these diseases and more people will suffer from HPV related genital warts and die from HPV related cervical cancer. You and the other Luddites should take a bow for your most recent case of justifiable manslaughter. Particularly your ability to infect and kill the poor. Congratulations!
I don’t smoke. I quit years ago. I am however, going to start smoking again when I turn eighty.
I have something to look forward to.
“Particularly your ability to infect and kill the poor. Congratulations!”
Oh, so now you talk life a liberal. I’m “killing the poor” because I think a vaccine against a venereal disease should not be forced on anyone? That is really rich. By that reasoning you are killing them as well since you hold the CDC so high in value but don’t want to ban smoking which causes the dreaded cervical cancer - according to CDC??? Kinda inconsistent aren’t you?
Oh...by the way. In the case of a public figure, I can speculate all I want about their motives. In this case...I’m afraid Rick Perry is dirty....”Crony Capitalism” I believe is what Sarah Palin calls it.
“I don’t smoke. I quit years ago.”
I don’t either because I know it is bad for your health. However, I’m not going to use government to stop the sale of the product. That would be “Nanny-State” just as what Perry attempted to do in Texas on these vaccines. It is just a matter of degree.
Polio is not a real time disease. It doesn't infect everyone that is exposed to it. It doesn't kill or cripple all those infected. Let's eliminate the requirement for this vaccine in the cause of freedom, what do you say? Same goes for Smallpox, Diphtheria, Tetanus and a myriad of other diseases that have mandated vaccines.
Your arguments are poor. They are not effective and they will not persuade a majority of the electorate. Neither will Ms. Bachman’s.
That is why I would and have stated that she drop this line of argument ASAP.
People don't like diseases, they do like vaccines against diseases.
You, on the other hand, are a real time idiot.
“Let’s eliminate the requirement for this vaccine in the cause of freedom, what do you say? Same goes for Smallpox, Diphtheria, Tetanus and a myriad of other diseases that have mandated vaccines.”
They are not “mandated” per se. You can’t attend a public school without them....but they are NOT mandated. Also, the polio vaccine was never mandated.
Whatever, you are incredible obtuse or just incapable of reading. I am NOT against vaccinations (neither is Bachmann). I know they work. I’m against forced vaccinations where there is not a clear ACUTE public health threat.
Oh...by the way. You really need to come up to date. They haven’t vaccinated for smallpox in 30 years; it was declared eradicated by WHO in 1980. Only the military does so because of potential for use as a biological weapon.
I’m glad most people are for vaccinations...they should be. I am certain that even Gardasil provides some protection. If I had a teenage daugther, I would probably opt to have her vaccinated. However, I will NOT mandate it for other people’s children....it isn’t my place. HPV is NOT a disease readily spread by casual contact...it is venereal.
We all know that Obama doesn't give a tinker's damn about the constitution, the rule of law, the life of the unborn, the health of anyone but himself, or the destruction of this country and this society.
He does however, love to see the Republican candidates one up each other as to who can be less interested in helping to eliminate diseases that disproportionately infect the lower rungs of society, thereby allowing him to paint Conservatives as elitist scum who only care about money and power. He also loves any in fighting that redirects the debate away from Unemployment and the economy.
So if I offend you with my dialog, I have finally grown tired of the stupidity and wish not to give you the courtesy of a continued civil debate about an irrelevancy that is only highlighted to hurt the cause.
Thank you and good day.
OPT OUT. That IS the choice.
It is an economic issue. One that can be used by Obama to bludgeon the Republicans as Luddite idiots who are unscientific and careless about the poor. The already try it with the non science of Angtroprogenic Global Warming.
I have stated that in many posts, you are apparently just too dense to understand it. You can afford to choose to get the vaccine, congratulations you have the money to do so. The poor and other lower classes can not. They in fact do not have the choice without a mandate. That was Perry's thinking and he has states=d it on more than one instance.
It is a viable and understandable position. The idea that Gardasil causes mental retardation is just plain stupid and nutty.
Perry made a hell of a mistake and has admitted to same. Have no idea why anyone would try to defend the indefensible. And he’s continuing his mistake in another indefensible position: weakness regarding illegal aliens.
You do realize that this is exactly the kind of "mandate" we are talking about with the HPV vaccine, right? If you homeschooled, went to a private school that didn't require the vaccine, or chose the opt-out provision, you didn't have to get the vaccination. That is not saying the mandate was the right way to go - just that it is exactly the same mechanism that is used for other vaccines. It's not like the state of Texas was going to go house-to-house and track down all of the young girls, then strap them down to get their injections (although that may be what some have surmised from Bachmann's comments).
I don't see too many people trying to defend the mandate - as you point out, even Perry doesn't defend that. However, people like Bachmann then tried to expand on that by claiming the vaccine itself was dangerous, and there are a lot of people who will dispute that claim. I think the issue for Michele was that she didn't think just the mandate issue would get her enough traction, since Perry had already agreed that it shouldn't have happened. Therefore, she tried to up the ante with her line about the "innocent little girls" being given a "dangerous drug", and relating the anecdote about the mother and the claim of the vaccine causing retardation. She went over the line, and now is paying the price for it.
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