Posted on 12/08/2010 9:53:15 AM PST by SeekAndFind
RE: US Private schools with Chinese Kids.
I’d like to add that we don’t have to go to private schools.
We can look at the scores of the top 200 public high schools in the USA to see which ones participated in the test and make comparisons.
Long Island, NY has at least 4 or 5 public high schools that I know of that rank in the top 150 in the USA.
If a few of them were selected, I bet they pull the US average UP.
In the USA, students of Asian descent score higher than Caucasians.
No surprise.
RE: Poland
Many great and brillant scientists were from Poland.
Nicolas Copernicus, Marie Curie, Albert Michelson, Stefan Banach are a few that come to mind.
“Biggest reason Average IQ”
IQ scores - except where you have a standard deviation + difference - are a poor foundation for this argument. The “Asian” estimate suffers from definitional and selection biases, and only a subset of Jews show up with a slightly higher IQ (its as if we broke our IQ stats separately for Episcopalians or Reformed). Then there is the “Flynn Effect”, which renders IQ results all the more puzzling.
Leaving aside a few groups who score very badly on IQ tests, the only factors that really matter are cultural (what do you really value and how hard will you work for what you value?) and pedagogical (do you use sound educational techniques?).
There is nothing to filter out. Homeschoolers are not in the sample. What you are seeing is government school performance - I don’t even think that private schools are included.
One of the excuses that Obama and the left used in hijacking our health care system is that the United States health care allegedly ranked well-below the quality of socialized health care in Europe and Canada. By the same reasoning then, shouldn't we be dumping our sociaized education system for vouchers, private schools, and home schools?
I see that you understand China. Yes, the Mainland is putting on a dominance display to embarrass Hong Kong (and to a much lesser degree, Macao).
IQ and the Wealth of Nations pegs the Israeli national average at 94. That's not all Jewish but close.
I go to the Israeli newspapers just to read the comments. If those folks are a 94, I'm scratching to break 50.
What are “ethnic Chinese”? That is a meaningless category. Even the Han are actually several groups. Here is a hint: there are no reliable IQ averages for China. If the countryside were included in any IQ testing regimen you can be assured that the IQ score would probably be below 100.
Culture and pedagogy matter on IQ tests. I can almost guarantee you that if we could test North Koreans that the IQs would be well below those for the South. Same people, but different cultures, etc.
There are no excuses for the performance of our government schooled students. The government school system itself is child abuse and needs to be dismantled.
Chinese students definitely work harder - and they get results for it. Without a doubt. Their system is very much “up or out” - positions even in a desirable high school, not to mention college, are very competitive.
They don’t coddle the kids, and the USA’s typical inner city slacker who doesn’t really care about school would have been weeded-out early and probably put to work instead.
I am just saying - when international “face” is involved, The Chinese Gov’t at all levels will make sure the results go their way.
In the USA, students of Asian descent score higher than Caucasians.”
No surprise at all. They work harder than others. BUT, as they “acculturate” their performance declines. Immigrant parents, in particular, have a hard time what is happening to their children in terms of work-ethic and, especially, other values. I see this all the time.
Exactly.
This is likely a measure of the best and the brightest in China vs. a very wide demographic in the USA.
As the parent of three public-school educated sons, all of whom now have engineering degrees, I feel confident that our best and brightest can stand up to international competition.
In an administration of the TIMSS a few years ago they compared “advanced” students. Our “advanced” students did even worse in the comparisons than our average students.
Using an international benchmark, our “top” high schools are not very good. To illustrate, go look at the material from 2 Million Minutes on YouTube. The producer chose an American high school that in terms of resources and demographics is among the best of the best. The comparison is not pretty.
Your prejudice against public education is unwarranted.
Public schools afford excellent opportunity to those students with the drive and will to study hard subjects. That benefits our entire society.
For those unwilling to work, public schools are nothing but a warehouse. Schools cannot overcome in a few hours the negative influences kids have outside the school day, both from society and from neglectful homes.
Advanced Placement, International Baccalaureate, and other accelerated programs are available to those willing to do the work.
It’s not easy, and it’s not always fun, but many fine young people take this route every year. You don’t hear about them. They often enter college with a year or two of credit. They become innovators and leaders.
They’re only a fraction of the school population. They have parents who support and encourage them, who instill values of hard work and determination.
I’m all for private schools and homeschooling, but not all families can go that route. Our public schools, when backed by strong families, serve us well. However, public schools cannot solve the problems of society when loaded with kids from hands-off parents with low expectations.
In other words, our public schools are simply a reflection of our society. You are ranting about effect, not cause.
I write this as a parent of three public-school educated children who were both well-educated and well-served there and who are now productive young men.
And they vote right, too.
With all due respect, you evidently know nothing about education or the government school system or its history.
Single-payer socialized education works just as well as single-payer socialized medicine. The difference is that you and many other “conservatives” are addicted to this middle-class “educational” welfare entitlement. Now you feel you have to justify your government school habit.
Do you have a response to the TIMSS results or to Bob Compton? Until I raised them, I am reasonably certain that you had never heard of them. All you know is that your school is really, really different because it is better than PS 112 or some high school in LAUSD or the Ozarks.
You might also benefit from Stossel’s Stupid in America, which includes a segment on a good suburban NJ high school that was compared with a Belgian school. You could learn from reading the Pacific Research Institute’s “Not As Good As You Think”. Even the recent LA Times study on teacher effectiveness supports the view that the metrics typically used to call some school districts “good” or “outstanding” are entirely bogus.
The real issue with schools is “value added”. Academically the answer to the “value added” question is obvious, but it is even worse when the “value added” question is asked with respect to morals and character.
I’m glad your sons became engineers, but that has nothing to do with the issue.
More focus on academics and less on social issues. Probably more homework, too.
Achilles, we’re all glad that your parents taught you well. ;-)
The movie "Waiting for Superman" put the blame squarely on poor quality teachers protected by tenure and unions. They offered a counter example with good teachers that derived much improved student academic results. Poor performing students are a symptom of the problem.
Shanghai is a distraction. Take out Shanghai and our performance was still appalling and has been for a very long time.
Yes, the Mainland is cooking the numbers, but we have been doing very badly in international comparisons over the years even though we know that the scope and sequence covered by some of the tests has been tailored to the US. Even more worrisome is that the longer a student is in a government school the worse he does in comparison. This was a test of 15 year-olds. If they were to test 18 year-olds you would see that the science scores would be where the 15 year-old math scores are (or lower) and the math scores probably would be a notch lower - i.e. dead last. In fact, the TIMSS showed this a few years ago.
Our government schools are inferior. They should be abolished.
Yes everybody who shows up for school takes the test.
You are right, there are some drop outs
And the ones too disabled to hold a pencil do not.
But every future burger flipper and broom pusher who is mandated by law to attend takes it.
That skews things down considerably.
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