Posted on 12/07/2010 11:37:51 PM PST by Bokababe
...Contemporary proponents of the Greater Albania employ a two-pronged strategy to gather supporters. "We are a social-welfare movement." Vetevendosje chief Kurti said. He seeks to draw support from the reservoir of energetic young people, frustrated by economic hopelessness, poverty and unemployment.
The other direction of Vetevendosje action is to play up allegations of discrimination of Albanians in Serbia, Macedonia and Montenegro....
(Excerpt) Read more at brecorder.com ...
It’s just amazing to me that despite the repeated failures of all forms of socialism, in every country it has been tried, there are still political movements claiming to be inspired by it.
Is it that people can’t learn from history and experience, or won’t learn?
No, it is that youngsters, who know absolutely EVERYTHING, have 'discovered' it for the 'first' time and just KNOW it will work out with them in charge.
What is it about Greater Albania that you cannot understand? It goes from Vienna to Buffalo, NY, on the East-West Axis, and from Moscow to Miami on the North-South Axis.
To dispute this is racist.
The Albanians are such vermin; the Somalis of the Balkans.
Your question has implicit in it the assumptions that those leading those political movements are of good will and wish to benefit their society and that those following them have learned history, so as to be aware of socialism’s failure.
Socialism tends to work very well for the socialists who start out powerless and end up running a country because their countrymen are historically illiterate.
Averaging 10 or 12 kids per family is breeding for war, and hopelessness and poverty come with the territory.
The editor of that website is a Pakistani muslim:
M. A. Zuberi
M. A. Zuberi is leading journalist of Pakistan and is chief editor of the Business Recorder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Kamboh_professionals_and_educationists#M._A._Zuberi
This used to be the logo of the the Albanian American Civic League's webpage. The AACL was founded by Joe DioGuardi, who recently ran for the US Senate from NY -- and (Thank God!) lost.
DioGuardi is the individual most responsible for getting the US politically and militarily involved in the Balkans, and he didn't care what side of the aisle he had to bribe to accomplish it. He got the Albanian Mafia to fund the campaigns of every sympathetic Congressman and Senator, from Lantos to Biden to McCain.
Although Greece is briefly mentioned as containing supposed "Albanian land", the AACL has also targeted Greece as a place that "discriminates against Albanians". It's all such a propaganda snow job that it is beyond belief that people still buy it.
Just in case you haven't seen it, there is an excellent 30 min documentary on youtube called Kosovo, Can you Imagine? It tells the tale of just what has happened in Kosovo since the 1999 NATO Bombing of Yugoslavia. This version has Serbian subtitles which you can just ignore, but it's well worth watching.
This same young Canadian film maker has another documentary coming out on the subject of the break up of Yugoslavia. The new film is called The Weight of Chains. It opens in Australia this month to sold out crowds and it opens on January 7th in the US.
January 7th, how fitting!
My understanding is that the people in Albania itself want no part of this, and any attempt to try to create a Greater Albania would lead to an Albanian Civil War, that would make the other wars in the Balkans look like a walk in the park.
The Washington minders in Pristina don’t share that sentiment.
Or the Somalis are the Albanians of east Africa.
Albanians from Albania are pawns in this game, not deciders. It's irrelevant what they want, just as it is irrelevant what all the other Balkan peoples want. The Balkans are a nothing more than a geographical chess board to both the East and the West, and those are the people who make the decisions. Western leaders made and continue to make deals with the Albanian Mafia who'll quietly take care of any "problems" that surface among Albanians, and those Western leaders will propagandize us to shut us up when necessary, too.
Personally, I think that "an independent Kosovo" is a giant money-laundering scheme for US & EU bureaucrats and politicians, and for the Albanian Mafia trafficking in drugs and the sex trade. It has never had anything to do with "civil rights" or even military strategy, although some of the WikiLeaks have suggested that the EU thinks Kosovo's Camp Bondsteel is being used as a kind of European GITMO .
Push this cancer into the sea and let God sort them out.
“Or the Somalis are the Albanians of east Africa.”
That’s what I tell our local Somalis. It’s the only insult I can come up with that fully captures their natural depravity!
I note that DioGuardi is an Italo-Albanian Catholic.
More like a halfway house for the Albanian mafioso who get arrested in other parts of Europe. They are "transferred" to Camp Bondsteel where they are promptly released.
I think that Clinton’s phony war to “save” these Muslim vermin - the Albanians - will go down in history as one of the worst treacheries committed against the American people by the US deep state.
Maybe second only to FDR’s love affair with the Marxist-Leninists in the 1930s.
Socialism HAS NOT FAILED. In every country where it was tried, it was wildly successful in enriching the "insiders" for as long as it lasted.
You think Hugo Chavez's inner circle don't live the good life?
1. No.
2. No, again -- not at this stage of the game. I've heard that the primary "religion" of Albanians is "Albanian", meaning that they follow the Kanun which is an ancient code of conduct that Albanians adhere to regardless of religion. It's a a very primitive, tribal code of behavior that set up blood feuds and the like, killing more Albanians than anyone or anything else ever has.
I note that DioGuardi is an Italo-Albanian Catholic.
Yes, and DioGuardi had no ethical problem whatever using his US government connections to create a new (Albanian) Muslim State in the Balkans -- even after 9/11.
Joe DioGuardi is an Albanian first and foremost. He's an Albanian before he is a Roman Catholic, is Albanian before he is an Italian and is even Albanian before he is American --the latter of which makes him completely unfit to ever hold Congressional office again!
Joe DioGuardi is an Albanian first and foremost. He's an Albanian before he is a Roman Catholic, is Albanian before he is an Italian and is even Albanian before he is American
Unfortunately, that sounds just like every other ethnic American politician. Only us rednecks get left out.
Even if the Albanians reverted (and again, they were chr*stians before they were moslems) that wouldn't necessarily bring peace. Ethnic groups who share the same religion sometimes hate each other's guts (Black and white Baptists, Pat Buchanan and the Mexicans, Orthodox Serbs and Catholic Croats, and even inter-Orthodox clashes among Serbs, Montenegrins, Macedonians, and Greeks).
I honestly used to believe that religious beliefs were supposed to come before anything and everything else, and my very hard meeting with reality has left me very, very cynical and depressed.
Um, what "ethnic clashes" among the Orthodox?
The Greeks and Serbs have never fought against each other over anything. They've always been best friends. In 1999, when the Serb army was forced to withdraw, Greeks even came to Kosovo as volunteers to act as bus drivers for Serb children in order to protect them from the Albanians.
Serbia and Montenegro have had political issues -- mostly instigated by the West-- but have never had "ethnic issues" because when it comes down to it, any Montenegrin who was ever worth a damn in Montenegrin history, considered himself "a Serb".
In the Balkan Wars. the Bulgarians fought the Serbs and Greeks over the division of land as the Ottoman Turks retreated, but it wasn't "an ethnic clash" --it was political.
And Macedonia never really fought anyone -- again the the problems between them and Greece & Serbia were political -- also again, mostly instigated by the West.
The Albanians, on the other hand, have no Balkan friends at all -- and for good reason.
I was referring specifically to Montenegrin and Macedonian nationalism (ie, the Macedonian Orthodox Church), and the sometimes heated quarrel between Macedonia and Greece (the Greeks not even wanting them to use the name “Macedonia”).
I'm American, but full-blooded Montenegrin by heritage.
The "Montenegrin nationalism" could only be pulled off after 50 years of communistic atheism (where Montenegrins lost their way, spiritually) and by pulling a whole lot of political strings from the outside. It's a political flash in the pan, it's not grassroots. The entire population of Montenegro is only a little over 600,000 -- the population of a medium-sized US metropolitan city. It's not hard to jerk their chain, especially after a bloody and complicated break-up of Yugoslavia where anything resembling a Serb must get on his knees and continually repeat, "Mea Culpa". Djukanovic is a a useful thug, not a leader. Montenegro is a managed province at the moment, not a country.
The Macedonian/Greek issue is a deliberately created political time bomb. Anyone with half a brain knew that an independent Yugoslav Macedonia was going to rub Greece the wrong way--as well it should. The country's entire existence is an irritant to all involved, so that no one will miss it when it's gone -- swallowed up by a Greater Albania. Sad, but it's independence was a suicide mission from the very beginning, and everyone knew it except the Macedonians.
I think that you are looking too hard at the little picture, which is admirable, but it is not the ultimate solution to the problem in this case. There are always local "reasons" which can be exploited by outsiders to cleave these regions apart -- and the Powers who have wanted to manage the region have done a hell of a good job of exploiting those cleavages.
The Balkans has too often been passed around by the major Powers as though they were a box of chocolates. This is nothing new. It's been going on for the last 150 years, which is why most of our ancestors got the hell out of there rather than live their lives at the whim and will of some foreign ruler. But sooner or later, the ruler goes broke and goes home or gets weak and gets thrown out -- and there is peace for a while, until the next outside Power gets too big for his britches and makes its move into the Balkans. Historically, it's ultimately been that Power's Waterloo, which is why I have never wanted the US to get involved there on ANY side. Long run it's always a losing proposition, no matter how well they think that they have it under control.
And yet an independent Montenegro existed separately from Serbia for many years until the creation of Yugoslavia after WWI.
The Macedonian/Greek issue is a deliberately created political time bomb. Anyone with half a brain knew that an independent Yugoslav Macedonia was going to rub Greece the wrong way--as well it should. The country's entire existence is an irritant to all involved, so that no one will miss it when it's gone -- swallowed up by a Greater Albania. Sad, but it's independence was a suicide mission from the very beginning, and everyone knew it except the Macedonians.
So, rather than an independent Macedonia, what should have happened to it? Should it have stayed part of Serbia (where it was before Tito broke it off)? Be absorbed by Greece or Bulgaria?
Do you believe the ancient Macedonians (Philip II, Alexander) were Greeks? That's not a critical question; I don't know what they were myself. I'm just curious as to your opinion.
Yes, my grandmother's grandmother was sister to Montenegro's most well-known Poet/Bishop/Prince, Njegos. I know the history well, including the bjelo/zelo nasi vote for joining Yugoslavia when Montenegrin King Nikola's daughter was the Queen of Serbia, and eventually became Queen of Yugoslavia. There was strife for a while, but it virtually disappeared.... until the break-up of Yugoslavia.
Although Montenegro has its own history, which Lord Tennyson even wrote about, it's population is small and it is otherwise surrounded by potentially hostile forces. With Albanians to the South, the Muslim Sandzak to the East that transverses the border of Serbia and Montenegro, and Bosnia & Croatia to the North Montenegrins are in deep trouble if all the Muslims in what was the former Yugoslavia want to link up from Bosnia to Kosovo -- and I think that they do. In an earlier time, Montenegro could protect itself because all the men were warriors. Today, they are "businessmen". Not a good situation at all.
So, rather than an independent Macedonia, what should have happened to it? Should it have stayed part of Serbia (where it was before Tito broke it off)? Be absorbed by Greece or Bulgaria? Do you believe the ancient Macedonians (Philip II, Alexander) were Greeks? That's not a critical question; I don't know what they were myself. I'm just curious as to your opinion.
Macedonia has completely burned its bridges with Serbia -- both in the pre-WWII assassination of King Alexander and in jumping ship from Yugoslavia. No, I don't think Macedonia can or should rejoin Serbia. It's best shot lies with Bulgaria, with which it is most culturally linked-- either allied to or part of it -- but I doubt the US or Euro powers will ever allows that -- which is why I said that Macedonian independence was "a suicide mission".
I know that the real "Macedonia" lies on the territory of Greece and is more akin to the cultures (Athenian, Spartan, etc) of Greece than it is to any other -- if that answers your question.
Thanks Bokababe.
Thank you for the information.
You are very welcome!
Bokababe knows everything about everything.
Seriously, any alternative Albania would almost *have* to be greater than the one that exists now.
Bigger, yes -- plus they have the highest birth rate in Europe.
Ouch!
Boka, I really believe that you are one of the most educated, knowledgable people out there, and thank goodness you post on places like Free Republic. I always learn something from every one of your posts. Thank you as always.
A few words about the Ancient Macedonians, I believe that their language was Greek, and the ancient Greeks considered them to be less politically developed Greeks, rather than ‘Barbarians’, i.e. everybody who did not speak Greek. It occupied the territory of the modern Greek province of Macedonia as well as the country of Macedonia. The residents of the country of Macedonia are primarily of Slavic descent, like Serbia, Montenegro, Bulgaria, Bosnia, and Croatia. Like all of them except Croatia and part of Bosnia it is religiously Orthodox.
Bokababe, I hope I have this more or less correct.
But I have been able to research that the Macedon Phillip inherited was quite tiny by comparison to what later became called Macedonia. The original Macedonians did speak a dialect of Greek. Macedonia expanded under Phillip and Alexander, and Macedonia expanded yet again during the Roman Empire.
Then, during the Byzantine period, much of the Western part got carved up by Bulgaria & Serbia, hence the Slavic speaking Macedonians. Yet when the Turks conquered the Balkans, the term "Macedonia" pretty much fell into disuse.
In the late 19th and early 20th century, the retreat of the Turks, the Balkan Wars and the population exchange of Greeks in Turkey produced a massive migration and population exchange in Greater Macedonia. The Slavic-speaking Macedonians for the most part went North into Bulgarian Macedonia and NW into what became the Yugoslavian Macedonia, and a substantial number of Greeks coming from Turkey moved into Greek Macedonia. Some of Greater Macedonia even wound up as part of Albania
Here are some maps. The 1st one shows Macedonia (at its largest) crossing the borders of several countries:
And here's one that shows the Macedon of Phillip, in yellow and it's expansion crossing borders.
Thanks Ravs, I had great teachers. Yet only God Knows "everything about everything". I am just a really curious reader some subjects that interest me.
My mother once said that I was the only kid she'd ever seen with whom you had to pry a book out of my hand to get me to go outside and play.
Thanks. I was under the impression that the Macedonia Phillip inherited was much larger than that yellow patch, will have to recheck my sources.
Good for you, Boka! You were a reader. Me, too. We grew up in the era before the internet, and I have to say that even though I adore the internet and find it useful on many levels, I’m glad that when I was a youngster it wasn’t around. I read voraciously. (That’s how you get blessed with a good vocabulary!) Seems to me that it always becomes obvious when someone is “well read” as opposed to someone who isn’t.
Of course, I’m also glad that instead of being at the computer all the time, we youngsters spent a lot of time outdoors, regardless of the weather. It was a healthier lifestyle for kids. I wouldn’t trade it for a fountain of youth today.
Books are treasures.
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