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Rest In Peace, old friend, your work is finished.....
If you want ON or OFF the DIESEL ”KnOcK” LIST just FReepmail me.....
This is a fairly HIGH VOLUME ping list on some days.....
Posted on 11/04/2009 10:04:41 AM PST by Red Badger
DETROIT -- Chrysler Group will launch Fiat-designed diesel engines and dual-clutch transmissions in its North American products, Chrysler said today.
The company also will launch its new Pentastar V-6 engine on the 2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee in the second quarter of 2010, said Paolo Ferrero, Chrysler powertrain chief.
The Pentastar will replace all Chrysler’s V-6 engines, from 2.7-liter to 4.0-liter displacement.
The first dual-clutch transmission will appear on a D-segment vehicle at the end of 2010. Also about that time, Chrysler will launch stop-start technology on the Jeep Wrangler.
Chrysler did not immediately specify when it would introduce Fiat-derived diesel engines.
Among the highlights of its powertrain plan, Chrysler will:
• Introduce a 1.4-liter gasoline engine in the Fiat 500 in the fourth quarter of 2010.
• Launch a turbocharged version of the 1.4-liter four-cylinder in the fourth quarter of 2011.
• Apply Fiat technology to Chrysler’s Pentastar V-6 -- including MultiAir, which Fiat says improves fuel economy 10 percent by using electrohydraulic valve controls to adjust the air and valve timing for each cylinder. Single and twin turbocharging also will be used.
You can reach Bradford Wernle at bwernle@crain.com.
Rest In Peace, old friend, your work is finished.....
If you want ON or OFF the DIESEL ”KnOcK” LIST just FReepmail me.....
This is a fairly HIGH VOLUME ping list on some days.....
KnOcK!.......................
Heaven:
German Technology
Italian Food
English Manners
H3ll:
Italian Technology
German Manners
English Food
I heard it this way:
Heaven:
German Mechanics
English Police
French Chefs
Hell:
French Mechanics
German Police
English Chefs
Hell would be Eastern Bloc technology (Trabant, anyone?)
Is the introduction of Diesel engines in US-manufactured passenger vehicles even legal? There were a spate of Diesel-powered passenger cars that were introduced back in the 1980’s, but they were generally considered a very bad idea then. That pretty much poisoned the well.
It would be easier to re-introduce steam engines than to bring back Diesels.
It will go retro as the Anointed One’s “People’s car”..
FIAT =
FIX
IT
AGAIN
TONY
What’s the benefit of a dual-clutch transmission?
I used to drive a double-clutch bus and guarantee that most people will not be coordinated enough to drive one. This market will be minuscule.
That reminds me of a joke:
A few days after the fall of the Berlin wall, Gunter, who was trapped in East Berlin, goes back to his old neighborhood in West Berlin.
Amazingly, even after all the years, not much has changed. Even more amazingly, the repair shop where he left his car was still in business!
Gunter goes inside and sees the same owner still owns the place and is working there.
“Do you remember me?” Gunter asks.
“Sure,” replied the owner.
“Do you remember I left my car here the week before the wall went up?”
“I sure do.”
“I don’t suppose you still have it after all these years?”
“In fact, I do. I am an honest man and would never take anything that doesn’t belong to me.”
Gunter looked at the owner in happy surprise. “Can I have it back?” he asked.
The garage owner thought for a second, then said
“It’ll be ready next Wednesday.”
I know, but I wanted to get my dig in about Italian technology. I had a Fiat once and the name fits:
Fix
It
Again
Tony
C’mon guys. It goes like this:
Heaven:
Chefs are French.
Lovers are Italian
Bankers are Swiss
Police are British
Mechanics are German
Hell:
Chefs are British
Lovers are Swiss
Bankers are Italian
Police are German
Mechanics are French
IMHO, more people would buy standard transmissions if they were actually available...problem is, you can’t get one on most models...
dang!
Beat me to it!
These are not your daddy’s diesels. The GM Diesel Disaster was a result of GM’s own stupidity, trying to use GASOLINE ENGINE BLOCKS & PARTS for DIESELS. The results were a complete disaster.....................
>>IMHO, more people would buy standard transmissions if they were actually available...problem is, you can’t get one on most models...<<
Both my cars are standard and the one we are eying also has a 6-gear standard as an option. The wife insists on it and I prefer it.
They have come a long way since then, heck we had a work truck that was a converted chevy gas engine they converted to diesel.
What a nightmare, and because of that they ruined sales for a long time. Volkswagen has had many good diesel cars, so has Mercedes over the years. Fortunately they are making a comeback now, mostly due to the European investment.
That was GM's misbegotten attempt to re-engineer a gasoline V-8 into a diesel, in an attempt to cash in on consumer demand for more economical vehicles. People shouldn't let GM's dumb move poison their attitude toward diesels in general.
We know one thing for sure.
Chrysler is backed by the full faith and credit of the US government until November 6, 2012.
I feel bad for the Chrysler boys and girls.
They were on a real roll when the Germans bought in.
Daimler ran it poorly, then dumped them on the Cerb sharks with the Home Despot (Nardelli) in charge, and now Fiat with the Baraqqis as partner.
A lot of talent there has bailed out over the years and I don’t see much product success coming their way.
“What’s the benefit of a dual-clutch transmission?”
They’re a more fuel-efficient type of automatic transmission than the traditional type with a torque converter. Also smaller and lighter. Very fast shifts. Maybe not as smooth, however.
I have a 5-spd also..but our choices are limited..
>>These are not your daddy’s diesels. The GM Diesel Disaster was a result of GM’s own stupidity, trying to use GASOLINE ENGINE BLOCKS & PARTS for DIESELS. The results were a complete disaster.....................<<
Something about this thread is lighting up my anecdote gland.
I had an apartment right over the carport and one of the cars under my bedroom was one of those damn VW diesel Golfs (or whatever). It was like having Ginger Baker doing his warm up routine in my closet at 6:30 every freaking weekday morning.
The biggest issue with diesels in the US post 2009 is the extremely challenging emission levels that have been set by USEPA.
This requires thousands of bucks of add-ons, and it is a technological “reach” meaning development has been forced and reliability will be suspect.
Medium and heavy trucks are going up in price five to ten grand for the 2010 emission engines.
>>I have a 5-spd also..but our choices are limited..<<
Very. I travel for a living and 100% of rental cars are standard, even the luxury cars.
Interestingly, if you rent cars in Mexico there are standard versions of almost all cars you can find in the USA.
Many years back, my sister in law bought a Fiat 128...which was supposed to be Fiat's answer to the VW Golf..Car was nice..roomy ( it was a box)..Peppy...4 cyl 5 spd..and handled well...FWD, and 4 whl discs...my brother enjoyed workign on his cars..back then it was possible to actually do so without spending $50k for computers and other diagnostic equipment..so he's going to do a mini-tune up at 10,000..points, plugs, and a few adjustments...he calls me..says I have to come over and see him...there was NO clearance to get the socket head on the plugs, to remove them..unless you undid the motor mounts and jacked the engine up 3 inches..
I think it’s because of the CAFE requirements...Engines are factory “tuned” via the computer..which regualates engine performance..max RPMs..and torque..via the automatic tranny..Obviously, with a manual trans..you can rev the engine as much as you want..and thus increase emissions..
Running diesel in everything from heavy equipment to build the world, semi-trailer trucks to move worldwide commerce and feeding into turbines is just a fluke until something better comes along, I’m sure.
Without spark plugs, planned obsolescence days are numbered.
>>says I have to come over and see him...there was NO clearance to get the socket head on the plugs, to remove them..unless you undid the motor mounts and jacked the engine up 3 inches..<<
Classic Italian design (LOL). I remember replacing the clutch on my X 1/9 — I was too young to realize that a shade-tree mechanic can’t really do that with a Fiat. It took me 3 whole days to do something you should be able to in an afternoon.
Dual clutch (DCT) transmissions combine the efficiency of a manual with the convenience of an automatic. With no fluid torque converter, frictional losses are very low - like a manual - but automated shift modes, in addition to a manual option, offer the convenience of a traditional "put it in D and forget it" slushbox.
In ten years, both the torque converter automatic and the single clutch manual transmission will be all but gone, replaced by hybrids like the DCT and other clutched-automatic transmissions.
The revolution has already happened at the top end; most high performance sports cars sold today have some form of automated manual transmission, and no third pedal.
You are thinking of diesels in passenger cars, by General Motors, with their usual amount of planning, careful implementation, etc.
OTOH diesels comprise over half of all new passenger sales in Europe, today.
There is nothing at all wrong with diesels. Luxury lines Mercedes, BMW and Audi all sell them right now in the US.
A VW Jetta tdi (turbodiesel) gets 29 mpg city, vs. about 22 mpg city for the gas engine. (Audi is a subsidiary of VW Group, the 3rd largest car maker in the world)
I owned two Fiats in the 60s and 70s. For what I paid, they were good vehicles. My problem was getting the 2nd one worked on here in the US, for reasonable parts and labor prices.
The worst aspect of my Fiat was poor durability of materials (paint, upholstery) which fits right in with Chrysler.
The engines were incredibly badly designed ... essentially gas engines converted to diesel with just enough mods to not immediately explode. Their performance was not on a par with purpose built diesels, and their longevity wasn't very long.
Yes, they poisoned the well. It's time to clean up the well. Real diesels are a whole different animal.
I’d also add that farm tractors and some other heavy equipment with diesels have had multi-clutch transmissions for years and years.
We used to have a Ford Genesis tractor with 16 forward speed and 9 reverse speeds. I could be going down the road at 20MPH and flip the transmission into reverse. The computer would downshift through the forward gears, the tractor would come to a stop for a moment and then the computer would shift the transmission into reverse and run up through the reverse gears. There were two clutches in the transmission and a main input clutch (which you could activate with the “inching” pedal, which was what we’d normally call “The Clutch Pedal” but it wasn’t that special inside the transmission).
Great transmission, designed and built by Funk out of Kansas. John Deere was so impressed with the Funk tranny that they bought up Funk - also because Deere’s powershift trannies on the 8300 series of tractors was rougher than a box of rocks.
If we converted some of the transmission technology in ag tractors to use in autos with computer-controlled diesels for power, we’d be driving 40+ MPG cars NOW. Not tomorrow. NOW. No hybrid nonsense required.
But nooooooo....
‘scuse me whilst I avoid going off on a rant.
General Motors ruined the reputation of diesels with their converted to diesel gasoline 350 engine. It was a dog in just about every way. On the other hand, Europe has had many different makes of efficient, clean and powerful diesels for passenger cars for years. We couldn't have them because of the high sulfur diesel fuel sold in this country. This has now changed with the mandate of low sulfur fuel in the USA.
If you’re anywhere near any ag equipment dealer, ask for a sit in any “powershift” tractor. If they let you take it around the lot, you’ll see the sort of “double clutch” transmission we’re talking about here.
You’ll wish you had such a tranny in that bus.
Followed by...
Chrysler did not immediately specify when it would introduce Fiat-derived diesel engines.
I think they have to check with the board (Obama & Gang) before they can import diesels into the United States.
Truth is, most were just very bad diesel engines.
I had a diesel powered Jetta that got phenomenal mileage. No problems at all with the engine.
We have a small JD lawn tractor with a CVT, which also lends itself well to the tasks you need a small tractor to perform.
You’re just talking about “double clutching”.
Faster acceleration vs. a stick.
MB diesels, in the 60’s and 70’s...loud, lumbering, and slooow..no acceleration..and the price of the glow plugs...OUCH!!
Better fuel economy and performance. It's a manual transmission that operates like an automatic. No shifting.
It's dual-clutch because there are two gear shafts with a clutch on each. One shaft has the odd-numbered gears and the other the even-numbered gears. Computer control allows quickly anticipating the next gear to engage so it doesn't chew itself up like in older attempts at an automatic-manual tranny.
Good one :)
Just FYI: We also used to have a Fiat-Hesston 160-90 tractor on the farm. GREAT engine. Easy on fuel, started down to -10F without glow plugs OR ether. Very tight engine, 20:1 compression ratio. Good, straightforward transmission - four ranges and four power-shift speeds in each range - total 16 speeds forward or reverse.
The cab... oh God. What a disaster. I forever felt like a full sized man driving a tractor designed for munchkins. If the roof didn’t open, I don’t know how I would have run that machine...
Suburu is bringing their diesel powered cars to America next year. Something that is anxiously awaited by the Suburu fans.
Spell check is not working
“MB diesels, in the 60’s and 70’s...loud, lumbering, and slooow..no acceleration..and the price of the glow plugs...OUCH!!”
My brother had an early 80s 300 turbodiesel. In the end he gave it to my father, in the early 90s.
But the new turbodiesels are smooth, quiet, clean, etc.
Audi ran a turbodiesel in the American LeMans Series and won. Peugot won this year with same.
The old diesels are not the diesels of today. The market in America may not be huge, but some people know about the superior mileage and longevity of diesel.
Like I said before, over 50% of new passenger vehicle sales are diesels in Europe.
$10 per gallon fuels will do that to a market.
It will keep the uncordinated off our roads. Honestly, it wasn’t that hard to do..
“This requires thousands of bucks of add-ons, and it is a technological “reach” meaning development has been forced and reliability will be suspect.”
Fuel efficiency has also suffered. I was reading here a week or two ago about the new Volkswagen Rabbit or Jetta with TDI that is coming here, and its fuel economy numbers were pretty unimpressive, considering the extra cost of the engine and the fuel for it.
Why do I always have to do it?
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