Posted on 10/31/2009 8:58:37 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
America is turning out plenty of science and engineering grads, a university study concludes, but many of the best are taking jobs in finance and consulting.
U.S. colleges and universities are graduating as many scientists and engineers as ever, according to a study released on Oct. 28 by a group of academics. But that finding comes with a big caveat: Many of the highest-performing students are choosing careers in other fields. The study by professors at Rutgers and Georgetown suggests that since the late 1990s, many of the top students have been lured to careers in finance and consulting.
"Despite decades of complaints that the United States does not have enough scientists and engineers, the data show our high schools and colleges are providing an ample supply of graduates," said study co-author Hal Salzman, a public policy professor at Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey. "It is now up to science and technology firms to attract the best and the brightest graduates to come work for them."
The onus for improving the stock of scientists and mathematicians thus falls more on employers than students, the report's authors say. "If a 12th grader asks us for advice about whether to pursue a career in physics, math, or engineering, what would our advice be?" says co-author Lindsay Lowell, a professor at Georgetown University. "It's difficult to say. There is such a surplus of talent."
The study, entitled Steady as She Goes? Three Generations of Students through the Science and Engineering Pipeline, was conducted with funding from the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, a New York-based nonprofit that focuses on science education. The report analyzes longitudinal data to examine the transition of American students in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics (STEM) from high school into the labor force.
Is It Just About Money?
(Excerpt) Read more at businessweek.com ...
Of course you know that Bill Gates argued that there is a decline in student interest in the sciences and that changes in immigration policy should be made to help fill gaps in the labor market.
Gates advocates for a variety of changes to U.S. immigration policy, including extending the period foreign students can work in the U.S. after graduation, increasing the current cap on H-1B visas [for skilled workers], and significantly increasing the number of green cards issued annually. Tech companies such as Google and Oracle also advocate these policies as part of Compete America, the tech industry lobbying group.
But of course, all bids will go to the lowest which would be...China...too bad US grads. Welcome to the global economy.
Yes, and most of them are foreigners, at least in Grad school.
When a starting attorney at a major law firm or an MBA from a top 10 business school starts with an IB or consulting company at a salary higher than a senior career engineer or scientist, the impact is obvious. Bill Gates knows better. He is just lying.
Shhh! Don’t go around spreading the truth.
There is a real short fall of people who have voodoo accounting degrees.
Your only choice these days is to go consultant, because while you don’t make all that much more money, you’ll get to keep a lot more (via per diem deductions), and you’ve no more insecurity than the directs.
Two years from now I don’t think it’ll make any difference:
40K max take home, before state levies, regardless of gross.
College gives you a degree, experience makes you valuable.
We don’t have enough electrical power engineers, which I am thankful for. :)
Yes, thanks to Nafta, and Bill Clinton. We are on the new frontier of regression to being a third world nation...
with the help of Obama and clan They would like to see the White Man be down trodden, to be humiliated, while they will bask in the richness and success of the white man or the White American Male. It is hard for some engineers and scientist to get jobs here in the U.S. because they are being shipped over seas. Students come to the U.S. from other countries, goes to school free, on our tax dollars, and we suffer...now ain’t that great???!
Scientists don't make much money, I know, but why don't you compare apples with apples--i.e., starting attorney or starting MBA from a top 10 school, with a "starting" engineer with a Master's from a top 10 school?
| 2001 | 2002 | 2003 | 2004 | 2005 | 2006 | 2007 | 2008 | 2009* | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Service Industries | 84% | 77% | 75% | 73% | 76% | 81% | 83% | 83% | 77% |
| Consulting | 38% | 23% | 30% | 26% | 23% | 21% | 21% | 20% | 29% |
| Entertainment/Multimedia | 3% | 2% | 2% | 5% | 5% | 3% | 4% | 5% | 3% |
| Financial Services | 33% | 41% | 28% | 31% | 36% | 42% | 44% | 45% | 32% |
| Investment Banking | 13% | 13% | 7% | 6% | 7% | 10% | 11% | 9% | 7% |
| Investment Management | 4% | 9% | 7% | 7% | 10% | 10% | 12% | 10% | 9% |
| Private Equity / LBO | 9% | 9% | 6% | 9% | 9% | 13% | 12% | 17% | 11% |
| Venture Capital | 4% | 3% | 2% | 2% | 3% | 3% | 3% | 4% | 2% |
| Other | 3% | 7% | 6% | 7% | 7% | 6% | 6% | 5% | 3% |
| Non-Profit / Government | 3% | 3% | 4% | 4% | 3% | 3% | 3% | 3% | 6% |
| Real Estate | N/A | N/A | N/A | 2% | 3% | 2% | 2% | 2% | NA |
| Retail / Wholesale | 2% | 2% | 3% | 3% | 3% | 4% | 5% | 3% | 2% |
| Other Services | 5% | 6% | 8% | 2% | 3% | 6% | 4% | 5% | 4% |
| Manufacturing Industries | 16% | 23% | 25% | 27% | 24% | 19% | 17% | 17% | 23% |
| Biomedical / Pharmaceutical | 2% | 5% | 4% | 7% | 5% | 5% | 4% | 3% | 5% |
| Consumer Products | 2% | 4% | 6% | 6% | 5% | 4% | 5% | 3% | 5% |
| Technology / Telecommunications | 10% | 7% | 6% | 9% | 9% | 6% | 6% | 6% | 6% |
| Other Manufacturing | 2% | 7% | 9% | 5% | 5% | 4% | 2% | 5% | 8% |
*The following preliminary data is subject to change as reporting continues.
Gee, that's funny. That's not what they say about guys who run investment banks, trading houses, corporate law firms.
Quite the contrary. We're even lectured that obscene bonuses go to the jerks who rolled the dice on trillions and then run to the taxpayers for a bailout.
So, it doesn't work when you apply it to engineers? How convenient.
I couldn’t agree more!!!
Technically, that's a correct statement. However, the majority of students in engineering (and probably science) based on my experience when employed at the University of Tennessee is that the majority of those are not American citizens. China was represented (via a Visa through Australia) as well as Middle Eastern. The majority of engineering students are Middle Eastern. (At least in the 1990's.)
Absolutely correct. The new grads need the experienced engineers to learn from. They may have gotten the basics in school but without the experienced engineers, they will re-invent the wheel. I’ve seen it happen many times. But...some companies will hire the new grads because they get them cheaper. Little do they know that designs will take longer, be of less quality. It’s not that the new grads can’t do it, they just don’t have the experience. Older engineers should be making a fortune in wages.
We need a new visa program: H1-CEO. India and China have plenty of executives who could run our companies for $500,000/yr.
Part of the reason for that is once you have 5+ years of engineering experience on the job, you start looking "too senior" to management and beancounters. You also start looking forward too eagerly to your increased vacation time, and dislike the unpaid OT that was expected of you.
If you're lucky, you can move into managment. Otherwise, they'll start shopping for H1Bs that are "almost" as good, and a whole lot cheaper.
Amen! And do a heck of a lot better job.
pasy, who says we need more foreign doctors too
But are they Americans?
You forgot your sarcasm tag!
If there are so many American engineers and scientists, then why, when I post job openings in newspapers and on line, do I get swamped with resumes from foreigners, even when the ad says only accepting US citizens?
They will be well qualified to figure the leverage that they need on the spatulas they use to flip burgers...if they are lucky enough to find a job flipping burgers.
One of the more interesting things I’ve noticed in the electric utility industry is the increased use of engineers in jobs that were previously open to experienced field technicians, linemen, and electricians. The problem is, while the engineers have the mathematical and theoretical background, few entering these positions have any real-world experience. The result is a longer training period and a higher chance of error.
I’ve been there. I worked for a large electronix firm that wanted to hire 80% new grads, 20% experienced engineers. It didn’t work out and the new grads failed misserably. It really wasn’t their fault. They just didn’t have the experience in a major firm. The new grads needed 24 months to come out with a new design. The experienced engineers were turning out designs in 18 months and much better designs.
Bump
No I didn’t. Our elites are overpaid. We need elites who will work for less. Leave more for the rest of us.
parsy, who meant it
The majority of engineering and hard-science Ph.Ds earned in US Universities are awarded to non-US citizens. I understand that has been the case for years, if not decades.
Yes, it’s very true. Universities really like that out-of-state tuition. And, with the gradual transition of professors from American born to foreign-born, you’ll find that they tend to prefer advising foreign-born students in grad school. State supported Universities have a responsibility to natural citizens but the money clouds their vision.
Most of the engineers that I know that achieved an MBA or a graduate degree did so after a number of years on the job as an engineer. OTOH, there are many business degree undergrads who just go right to grad school without any significant time in the workplace. So on one hand you have a engineer with 10 years experience with a newly-minted MBA, or a 23 year old wiz-kid who is still unproven. Still an apples-oranges comparison.
There’s a perennial demand for more science and engineering graduates from talking heads on both the right and left - as if there’s an unlimited demand for either. But Gates et al actual motivation is a little too obvious - it has nothing to do with improving the economy or keeping America competitive or whatever other trite phraseology they may use; it has everything to do with lowering wages in the tech sector. If there’s lots of engineers floating around it will push down wages, if there’s few it will push them up. The market will sort these things out.
Over the decases, I have become convinced that anybody who says there’s a “shortage of < insert name of economic good here >” does not know anything about economics.
Two new engineers, Aggie Al and Longhorn Lou, were hired by the Pedernales Electric Co-op on the same day.
Boss gave them their first assignments; each one had to supervise the construction of new power lines down two new roads. They had to start by overseeing the installation of the power poles. They both got started bright and early.
At sundown, both came back to the office and Boss asked them how they’d done.
Longhorn Lou: “Well, we got as far as Elm Avenue. That’s thirty-two poles.”
Aggie Al: “We got most of the way to Second Street. That’s four poles.”
Boss: “You got only four poles put in? Lou got thirty-two! How come?”
Aggie Al: “Boss, you must notta seen how much of them poles Lou left sticking outta the ground!”
Clearly apocryphal. C{EFIO}Os aren’t smart enough to do that.
Again, I’m not talking about engineers with bachelor’s degrees competing with others with graduate degrees. We should be comparing engineers with graduate degrees with others with graduate degrees. (And the reason we aren’t is because engineers with graduate degrees get paid very, very well—when compared to their peers).
Complete malarkey. Tell that to all those scientists and engineers that get "downsized out the door" when they hit fifty, to be replaced by a new hire right out of school. All that matters is this month's bottom line.
You didn't read what I said, which was that these salaries exceed those of a mid-career engineer, and by the way many scientific salaries are quite comparable with engineering salaries, so no you don't know.
I read what you said, and all it was is the age-old lament (not limited to engineering, btw) that people with work experience aren’t compensated the same as people with advanced degrees, when in a lot of cases the added experience should be held as more valuable.
Clean Room Technician: You know what they do with engineers when they turn forty?
[to Aaron, who shakes his head]
Clean Room Technician: They take them out and shoot them.
2nd that
BSEE The Ohio State University, specialized in power
I didn’t study power in EE school, I studied controls, but my coop job gave me power experience, enough to be hired by a large scale industrial electrical contractor.
All those facilities need power for pumps and compressors and other stuff. Sometimes my projects have included power plants, substations and transmission lines. I've done a few other stuff along the way but I've been glad for the move. Of course the cycles in the business can leave you looking for work or moving around the world chasing jobs.
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