Sub order: Israel to ask for German cash [Dolphin SSK #6]

UPI.com ^ | Oct. 8, 2009 | United Press International

[wolf78]

BERLIN, Oct. 8 (UPI) -- Germany has been asked to help fund yet another submarine for the Israeli navy.

Jerusalem plans to order another submarine of the Dolphin class from German Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft AG and has asked the German government to subsidize the order, German news magazine Der Spiegel reports.

Berlin has helped Israel pay for five previously ordered submarines. The first two (named Dolphin and Leviathan) were a gift by Germany after it surfaced that German companies were involved with Iraq's chemical weapons program.

To save the orders and jobs for the German shipyards, Chancellor Helmut Kohl decided to pay for the first two subs with tax money and subsidize half of the third model, named Tehumah.

When Israel decided to order two more subs, Berlin chipped in a third of those costs as well. Those two submarines -- No. 4 and No. 5 -- were delivered last month. They are upgraded versions of the original Dolphin and feature an air-independent propulsion system.

Now No. 6 is ready to be ordered, and Israel is due to ask Berlin to shoulder at least part of the estimated $750 million price tag. In Germany, critics of the Israeli submarine deal fear that the vessels could be used to fire nuclear warheads. Observers nevertheless expect Berlin to subsidize the order.

[wolf78]

[wolf78]

ping

[Ronin]

I don’t get it. Why is Germany paying for Israel’s submarines?

[wolf78]

In other news:

Israel wants Berlin to finance two new warships

[wolf78]

I don’t get it. Why is Germany paying for Israel’s submarines?

They're just paying for one third, the other two thirds are mostly paid for by the US. Probably for the same reasons - the top three being Iran, Iran and Iran ;).

[Wiz]

Don’t tell me German is playing Reaganomics!

[darkside321]

huh? why should germany pay for Israeli submarines? i don´t get it. the military industry not interested in making profit any more???

[Larry381]

I don’t get it. Why is Germany paying for Israel’s submarines?

There are 6 million reasons.

[Vendome]

why aren’t they buying ours?

[Vendome]

Ohhhh, guilt. That is pretty funny.

[darkside321]

There are 6 million reasons.

---

??? if you are referring on the holocaust. again why should people who have not even been born in 1945 (most of the germans) give people who have not been born in 1945 too (most of the Israelis) something for free?

[safisoft]

??? if you are referring on the holocaust. again why should people who have not even been born in 1945 (most of the germans) give people who have not been born in 1945 too (most of the Israelis) something for free?

Because their parents were complicit. Because the entire society was complicit. Because the debt that is owed could never be completely paid in 10,000 years. Many Germans understand that, and they continue to be good supports of the Jewish state.

[wolf78]

why aren’t they buying ours?

They have neither use for nor can they afford large nuclear powered subs.

[darkside321]

oh come on. if this would be the normal case then every country in this world would have to pay reperations or “support” other nations forever. while the holocaust still was horrible it was not the first genocide and definitelly will not be the last genocide or horrible event in this world. so does this mean japan can now ask the US to pay for nuking them? can the french demand money because they helped in the independence war, or the indians for that “little” genocide the europeans brought them? blacks because of slavery...? the list goes on and on. if the german politicians really do this because of the sins of their for forefathers as you assume then they are just idiots! (at least in my personal impression) and if i would be a german citizen i would not vote a politician who is willing to give away my hard earned money because of something that happened long long ago before i was born.

[safisoft]

if the german politicians really do this because of the sins of their for forefathers as you assume then they are just idiots!

Well, you have not been paying attention. That is precisely why they support the Jewish state. And they have said so. How many Germans have you spoken to about this?

6 million is a big number. As well, the systematic extermination of an entire population by a "civil" people weights that guilt exponentially more.

When Germany has expended their soldiers' blood to defend Israel, in the way that 660,000 Americans did to "end slavery," then maybe the debt will have been paid. Until then, they wisely know that the the blood of the 6 million cries out from the dirt of Germany.

[darkside321]

oh i have spoken enought germans to know that most of them do not support handing over their tax money to israel because of this right now in 2009. maybe correct that many germans would not state this in public especially politicians (really don´t know why but at the end fine for me because it´s their money the government flushes down the toilet). if german politician still are willing to hand over money to Israel just only for not beeing called Nazis from other politicians who have like them not even been born in 1945 it´s ok for me. (but still crazy in my personal impression). i can only thank god that my country (Austria) isn´t stupid like that. so now i may be called a Nazi or an anti semite (”which i´m not” btw. this movement died in 1945) but at least my money stays home. and i have to say i have no problem with this fact nor feel i guilty for anything that happened even before my parrents have been born.

[Strategerist]

They have neither use for nor can they afford large nuclear powered subs

You're quite correct on the primary two reasons, but a third reason is that given fairly recent history we wouldn't be confident some of our submarine technology wouldn't then end up in the hands of the Chinese.

[Wiz]

1)Germany supported Iraq under Hussein with weapon programs
2)Germany did not want to be tortured with its history again
3)Labor for the military industry

[Wiz]

Do you want to make fun of their Navy with a big fat US made sub stuck in the Suez Canal (Well, could our subs swim through it?) :)

Plus Israel does not need nuclear power since they only have to care about potential enemies just far enough with conventional submarines to swim inside Middle East region. They are not going to need long journey swimming around the world like US and Russia. Plus conventional submarines are sometimes much more quiet than nuclear powered submarines.

[SJackson]

Middle East and terrorism, occasional political and Jewish issues Ping List. High Volume

If you’d like to be on or off, please FR mail me.

..................

[darkside321]

1)Germany supported Iraq under Hussein with weapon programs
2)Germany did not want to be tortured with its history again
3)Labor for the military industry

---

1. i guess true but so did many other nations and i don´t see them handing over freebies to Israel. (nor do i see what Iraq had to do with the state of Israel because as far as i know Iraq don´t used this weapons to fight Israel)
2. i guess this is exactly the reason (but again a little bit more self-confidence would save the current working german a lot of tax money and there for i really don´t get it why german politicians still can be played like a violin once someone mention “holocaust”).
3. yeah but wouldn´t it be better to build it for your self? costs the same amount of tax money (and brings jobs) but at least you finally have a new ship for your self instead of nothing ;-)

[safisoft]

Austrian? LOL. That explains a lot. Thanks for the laugh.

[darkside321]

Austrian? LOL. That explains a lot.

---

really? then i guess you know something that i don´t.
because for me this explains nothing.

[wolf78]

because for me this explains nothing.

1945... the miraculous discovery of Austrian national identity. You know, before Austrians considered themselves Germans, just like Bavarians or Saxons (Kingdom of Bavaria / Saxony), yet suddenly Austrians were something totally different and the Holocaust thing was all Germany's fault. No need for Austria to take responsibility.

Ironically, even as Chancellor, Hitler was never legally a German citizen in the pre-Anschluss sense.

[darkside321]

Austrians considered themself german before 1945????
(i thought you are from germany?) what happened missed all
history classes? yeah you only have to ignore about more then 1000 years of different history between germany and austria and the wars both countries fought against each other then of course you are correct. agreed who cares about 1000 years when you have 7 years to hold against (1938-1945) it? btw. every little kid here knows that Hitler was an Austrian and that this country willingly participated to the holocaust so what? does this make me now direct responsible for it in personal? sorry if you got indoctrinated that you have to feel guilty even if you had done nothing wrong in your life. but this does not mean that others have to follow this.

[ArrogantBustard]

Because their parents were complicit.

Oh, my ... that looks suspiciously like a "Blood Libel".

Oh, the irony ...

[wolf78]

yeah you only have to ignore about more then 1000 years of different history between germany and austria and the wars both countries fought against each other then of course you are correct.

ROFL. Which war did Austria fight against Germany? N.B.: Germany, not Prussia.

Because given the fact that the house of Habsburg held the Imperial German throne from approx. 1400-1800, they would have had to declare war on themselves.

Prussia was just one German state, like Bavaria, Saxony, Austria, Hesse or Wuerttemberg. And yes, German states fought each other, but again, that doesn't make Austria an exception.

btw. every little kid here knows that Hitler was an Austrian and that this country willingly participated to the holocaust so what?

Today, that is correct. But before the Waldheim affair, the victimhood myth was prevalent in Austria.

[darkside321]

sorry but German empire emerged from Prussia. so it´s not wrong that prussians have been indeed “germans”. ask some one from the free state of bavaria who they think prussian are? so it´s legtim for example to call the war against prussia as a war between “modern” germany and Austria. ähm parts of the habsburger family ruled over most of europe even in the US and mexico. ever heard of Casa de Austria? 1306 when the spanish habsburger blood line split into different which finally endet in the Austrian empire in 1804? so don´t tell me something like that austria and germany are something like the same country by any definition. ok we could now spend a week here digging out hundrets of years of history and wich modern country emerged from whom but again to say that austria and germany share the same history is just plain wrong. so no austrian ever would call himself a german.

and for today. Sorry but don´t you live in 2009? because i do. so if you admit that it´s correct that every one here knows that austria had it´s fair share of guilt and willingly participiated on the holocaust then again whats the problem?

[safisoft]

Oh, my ... that looks suspiciously like a "Blood Libel"

"Blood libel" has nothing to do with responsibility for past national action.

I will assume by your use of the term in this case, you know nothing of what "blood libel" is, and how it has been used against Jews (look it up). If not, then the real irony is in your mentioning it on this thread.

[darkside321]

“Blood libel” has nothing to do with responsibility for past national action.

---

then please explain me how a for example 30 year old german or austrian is responsible for actions in 1945? or better why this people should owe a lets say 30 years old citizen of Israel anything?

[PoliticsAndSausages]

Also, because the reasons why you get free stuff are not as important as the fact that you can get it for free. By the way, putting a price tag on that is disgusting.

[wolf78]

sorry but German empire emerged from Prussia. so it´s not wrong that prussians have been indeed “germans”

I'm talking Holy Roman Empire of German Nation, not the the short-lived 1871 empire without Austria.

Which m*therf*cking war? When between 1871 and 1937 was there a war?

so don´t tell me something like that austria and germany are something like the same country by any definition.

That's something you're saying, which I am not. First of all, Germany in it's modern sense didn't exist before 1871. Before that, the notion of Germany encompassed all the German-speaking lands (the word "deutsch" does not denote a nationality like bavarian, but means "those who speak the common tongue"). So in 1900 when you asked a Viennese which country he live in, he'd say Austria, but if you asked him about cultural identity, that would be German. And that's all I'm talking about.

ask some one from the free state of bavaria who they think prussian are?

The enemy, plain and simple ;). Seriously, liguistically and culturally, Bavarians and Austrians form one people, who have very little in common with e.g. Frisians.

so no austrian ever would call himself a german.

You prove my point. No post-1945 Austrian would, but I could give you 100 examples of turn-of-the century Austrians who did. You simple have no clue about your own history (literature / culture etc.).

so if you admit that it´s correct that every one here knows that austria had it´s fair share of guilt and willingly participiated on the holocaust then again whats the problem?

I have no problem at all, you do. The reason why people smirkingly say "Ah, Austrian, that explains everything..." is because Austrians have no sense of history, due to the post-WWII whitewashing. You don't get it because you prefer to believe your version of history, i.e. that Austria and Germany are two opposite entities, when Austria always was a part of the German cultural continuum, when there was no black and white, but shades and degrees of unity and seperation - much like the enmity between Bavaria and Prussia.

That's why the rest of the world refers to Austrians as "mountain Germans" and laughs about that old joke that the greatest trick the Austrians ever pulled was convincing the world that Hitler was German and Beethoven Austrian. But you wouldn't get the irony here either, because you grew up believing that history started in 1945 and that the official language of Austria was Austrian, because your revisionist teachers taught you so. That's why being Austrian explains quite a lot ;).

But as the the initial question: It isn't all about the holocaust, Israel is also the last best line of defense of democracy in the middle east. Plus: Germany could sink 10 billion on a nuclear weapons program of its own to deter the Iranians. Or it could help our Israeli friends out a bit keeping the mullahs in check.

BTW: "legitimate"

[darkside321]

here we go again. i´m talking the AUSTRIAN - PRUSSIAN war in 1866. you said “”First of all, Germany in it’s modern sense didn’t exist before 1871. Before that, the notion of Germany encompassed all the German-speaking lands “” so what do you think we speak in Austria russian??? ;-) (btw. i allready know the answer that will follow :-) but you are wrong because can you please explain me how ferdinant the 2nd could declare the Austrian empire in 1804 when it´s still a part of “of the holy roman empire of german nation” untill 1871 as you assume? fact is both countries in it´s modern sense didn´t exist for lets say more then about 200 years ago. but this does not mean that todays austria would have been a part of germany. because it´s difficult to be a part of a country that doesn´t exist. so for example you think the emperor of AUSTRIA would have called himself a german? or Marie Antoinette (1755 -1793 beheaded in paris during the french revolution) archduchess of AUSTRIA princess of Hungary, Bohemia... was a “german” in “real life”? and no some one especially from vienna would never have said that their culuture is german (if anything they would have said they are Viennese in first place). (not that most of austria thinks that the people who live there have something to do with Austria in generall even now ;-)

ah the good old Bavarians :-) the austrians of germany *lol*
true they would never indentify their selfs with someone from nothern germany nor do they have anything in common with them. Nor do we :-)

you said: “That’s why the rest of the world refers to Austrians as “mountain Germans” so only because most of the world has the facts wrong and does not especially care (most because of WW2) it has to be true? honestly asked. do you think someone from nothern germany shares anything with an Austrian beside the fact that we both speak german (at least you try it but it sounds soooo funny ;-) ?

btw. for Iran. Isn´t especially Germany one of the most important trade partners of Iran? (not that we don´t trade with them :-) so it would be new for me that the german government has any interest to stress the trade relations between Iran and germany.

greetings

[safisoft]

You assume I am Jewish. You assumed incorrectly.

[safisoft]

I suggest you look up “blood libel” before you make a fool of yourself.

[Non-Sequitur]

I don’t get it. Why is Germany paying for Israel’s submarines?

Guilt and jobs.

[Non-Sequitur]

why aren’t they buying ours?

We don't make conventionally powered subs and haven't for well over 50 years.

[darkside321]

because you grew up believing that history started in 1945 and that the official language of Austria was Austrian, because your revisionist teachers taught you so. That’s why being Austrian explains quite a lot ;).

---

he cool!! does this mean “we” can forget who started ww1 too because history starts at 1945? :-)
btw. didn´t all my previous posts stated exactly the opposite? hint only Obama thinks that austrian is a language ;-) but you are correct there is a difference between Austria and Germany when the theme is holocaust. not that people would not be aware of the role austria played in it it´s more about that most people just don´t care that much about it any more. at least people are tired talking about it. it´s more like yes happened, was horrible, schould not happen again, but luck for us all this has been long over. end of story. nor does official Austria has such a positive relationship to the state of Israel (nor special interest in it) like germany. just tired of beeing called nazis because of 1945. but has nothing to do with jews (or that they would be hated here) or something. it´s more about simple daily politics.

[wolf78]

You're a daft chap, now are you?

but you are wrong because can you please explain me how ferdinant the 2nd could declare the Austrian empire in 1804 when it´s still a part of “of the holy roman empire of german nation” untill 1871 as you assume?

The Holy Roman Empire ended in 1806, but there was no German Empire - or unified Germany for that matter - until 1871. The German Confederation (1815-66) still encompassed the German-speaking parts of (i.e. modern) Austria, the North German Confederation (1866-71) was lacking other German states like Bavaria or Baden.

here we go again. i´m talking the AUSTRIAN - PRUSSIAN war in 1866.

I know, but equating Prussia with Germany here is bullsh*t of the highest order. There was no German nation state at that time. Period. Before there was a loose Confederation, but Austria was part of that, too.

fact is both countries in it´s modern sense didn´t exist for lets say more then about 200 years ago.

Why be vague when you can be precise? Imperial Austria since 1804 / modern - i.e. only German-speaking - Austria since 1918. Imperial Germany since 1871.

but this does not mean that todays austria would have been a part of germany. because it´s difficult to be a part of a country that doesn´t exist.

G*ddammit, read what I wrote. I never said that Austria was always part of a German state. That would be wrong. I said Austria always was part of the German cultural sphere, which is correct. Only in 1945 Austrians miraculously began to define themselves in opposition to Germany. Before 1945 there was no contradiction between Austrian citizenship and German culture.

true they would never indentify their selfs with someone from nothern germany nor do they have anything in common with them. Nor do we :-)

Nor does a Hessian have with a Saxon. Because while both are subgroups of the German culture, they have always been peoples in their own right. Actually, Bavarians and Austrians form one people, one tribe, so the differences between Hessians and Saxons are far greater than between Bavarians and Austrians. Or to quote a Viennese historian: "All Austrians are Germans, you just can't help it. We were part of the Reich, we were colonized and became subjects of the Bavarian duke."

you said: “That’s why the rest of the world refers to Austrians as “mountain Germans” so only because most of the world has the facts wrong and does not especially care (most because of WW2) it has to be true? do you think someone from nothern germany shares anything with an Austrian beside the fact that we both speak german (at least you try it but it sounds soooo funny ;-) ?

Austrians are mountain Germans (culturally, not politically) exactly because they speak the same language as Berliners. Because if you take away the Federal Government, all the other German "tribes" have as much in commom with each other as with Austria (i.e. language, classical music and a taste for sausage). But that is part of the specifically Austrian brand of historical revisionism: Seeing the German Republic as something uniform and homogeneous, which of course is complete and utter nonsense.

Other than that, it's pretty much useless discussing history with Austrians, exactly because they don't want their beliefs to be challenged by facts. They simply prefer the myth over reality, no matter how nonsensical their arguments.

[Jewbacca]

It’s more no-money-down purchase. No deposit.

[Jewbacca]

You won’t sell them.

[Vendome]

lol

[Pan_Yan]

Congratulations on one of the most entertaining yet serious thread hijackings I’ve seen recently.

[darkside321]

Congratulations on one of the most entertaining yet serious thread hijackings I’ve seen recently.

---

Well thanks ;-) i think we both have given our best to discredit the other and teach our version of Histrory from parts of Europe :-)
greetings

[AppyPappy]

“Why is Germany paying for Israel’s submarines?”

If you go in to buy a new BMW and the dealer says “I’ll kick in a 1/3 of the cost”, don’t ask “Why?”

[humblegunner]

There are 6 million reasons.

Do you support reparations for U.S. slavery?

[dfwgator]

There are 6 million reasons.

Shouldn't Austria also kick in their fair share. They gave birth to the guy, and the most fanatical Nazis regarding the Final Solution were Austrian.

[darkside321]

Shouldn’t Austria also kick in their fair share. They gave birth to the guy, and the most fanatical Nazis regarding the Final Solution were Austrian.

---

you are asking the wrong question. shouldn´t have Austria taken it´s fair share of blame in 1946. yes true they should have (but “we/they” don´t). should hard working people (you know the guys who are paying the taxes right now) who have not been born when this happened feel guilty and hand over their hard earned money to other people who have not been born too when this happened only because of this? definitely NO! again are you willing (if you are a white american) to pay reperations because of slavery?

[dfwgator]

I agree, I guess I was just also making my point as to why Austria always seems to get a free pass when talking about the Holocaust.

[darkside321]

I agree, I guess I was just also making my point as to why Austria always seems to get a free pass when talking about the Holocaust.

---

true austria often gets a “free pass” because most of the people really think that only germany was responsible for it. but that´s not the fault of austria it´s more the “fault” that this has been long over and most people do not especially care about details from foreign countries in europe (only germans do and believe me they really do) more than 60 years later. the guy from germany has one point which i would never disagree. Austria really did everything to enshure that it was only a victim instead of a willing participator (at least many people had no problem with it) to the holocaust short after the war. this is a historical fact. same fact like that Austria (many people don´t know this) started ww1 and an austrian started ww2. but now comes the difference. germans in generall are still indoctrinated since birth to feel somehow guilty about the holocaust. Austrians arn´t. there for germany does every thing to show every one “we may be all but why ain´t shure no nazis anymore” Austrians for example just don´t give a rats a$$ about beeing called a nazi. Every one here knows that we are not but anyway people are not willing to hand over freebies to just show someone that we are not. so austria usually gives Israel the finger not in generall but every time (when politicians try to play the holcaust card) and germany does not. for austrians (born after it) it´s just a very bad and horrible historical event. and shure nothing to be proud of but nothing less nothing more. germans are told to think different. again i don´t know why because over means over.