Posted on 10/20/2009 4:03:16 AM PDT by Halfmanhalfamazing
ORLANDO, Fla. (WOFL FOX 35) - A proposed state guideline for dealing with an influenza pandemic is causing quite a stir.
The Florida Department of Health is proposing that health care providers, notably hospitals, pull the plug on the most critically-ill patients in order to treat "healthier" patients.
Let me count the ways.............
“The plan would also offer immunity from legal action to health workers deciding who get treatment and who doesn’t when complying with an executive order.”
So, you can kill someone, you just can’t question them aggressively......figures.
Very similar to S2028 here in Massachusetts, which passed 40-0 earlier this year. Recently the house passed a much watered-down version.
Do you have a link on that S2028?
Thanks
Do you have a link on that S2028?
Thanks
I don’t care how sick I get, I’ll be better off at home in my own bed than under the watchful eye of liberal hospital administrators eager to use their new euthanasia equipment.
This is just creepy. How would you know whether that syringe contains medicine to make you well or a cocktail to put you down?
I have always been one to be skepticle about God and miracles—or intervention if one prefers. But sometimes, like now, I really do wonder. Up to this Florida death choice guidance memo, the idea of death panels was acedemic to Americans. Now, just as Onada and his crowd of angry commies are about to cram Onadacare down our throats, along comes Florida.
The Marxist crowd has three obsessions—power, death (including abortion) and deviant sex.
“It’s a reality and something we call triage something faced almost on a daily basis for example in the military where they have to make decision because of a shortage of supplies,” said Dr. James Orlowski, Ethics Chair for University Community Hospital of Tampa.”
HUH? This doesn’t sound right. I have never heard of the military triaging medical care because of ‘shortages of supplies’. This guy sounds like a liberal hack. Can any of our FReeper military folks enlighten us a bit better? We have saved a whole lotta lives on the battlefield..more than in any other war. This just struck me as a curious statement.
The way toward this was paved by Terry Schiavo’s case.
"It's a reality and something we call triage something faced almost on a daily basis for example in the military where they have to make decision because of a shortage of supplies," said Dr. James Orlowski, Ethics Chair for University Community Hospital of Tampa.Most folks just don't mow about "triage'. Ask your Dr about it but get ready for a weird look on his face.
if you're ever in a bad multi-car accident you'll find out how it works. Hopefully for the best.
You beat me to it. Between Greer and Felos, it’s a wonder why any elderly are still moving to Florida. Stump a toe there and you’re marked.
This is going on under the administration of “electable” Gov Crist? What does this say about the judgment of people he appoints? Pretty scary.
Their link to the .pdf isn’t working can anyone find it???
In fact, given a pandemic, doctors will have to face the situation in which, for example, he has two patients in need but only one ventilator. Generally we want doctors to make the decision based on the particulars of the situation and we think whatever the decision, unless criminally motivated, there should be no basis for prosecution.
The situation changes though, when it is framed as Obamacare picking and choosing who should be denied care, and issuing essentially an (unneeded) pardon for MDs. Nothing changes except the idea that the decisions are characterized as the province of government. This is the camel's nose under the tent.
One of the reasons they will get away with it is the fear generated among medics by the excessive prosecution of doctors from the Katrina cesspool.
BTT
“The Marxist crowd has three obsessions—power, death (including abortion) and deviant sex.”
Death, except in the case of the legal application of the death penalty to the most awful criminals.
Lets be real folks. There are a limited number of ICU resources. More will not magically appear. If we had a REAL crisis, hard decisions would have to be made.
When I started in Medicine in the 1980’s, the rule of thumb was no one over 80 was placed in the ICU. We just didn’t do it. There were far fewer ICU beds and it was felt that long term it made little or no difference in long tern ( 1 year +) outcome. If we get into a crisis that type of thinking will be back.
As to the military, as a former AF Flight Surgeon, I can assure you Triage, is ALWAYS a consideration in combat. Up to now we haven’t had to face the issue because our recent wars have been so limited. But we ALWAYS train for the “big one” where casualties outstrip the resources available. And that means some people get sent to the back of the line.
Say it loud...say it proud...DEATH PANELS!
I think it’s here, somewhere, on this page but I don’t have time to fully check which pdf is the correct one(the link on the Fox page has some extra garble): http://www.doh.state.fl.us/demo/php/index.html
I’m pinging Smokin’ Joe avian / H1N1 ping list & some other freepers to a new article thread post
Pandemic guideline proposal causing a stir ( Florida’s obamacare like death panels ),
In a military situation, I'm assuming triage decisions are made based on who has the best chance of surving...? Or are quality of life decisions made, e.g. some poor soldier had half his body burned and will be bound to a bed for the rest of his life (if it's saved) and be in constant pain? In the civilian world, I can see an 80 y.o. going to the back of the line in favor of a 25 y.o., but what if the 80 y.o. has a better chance of survival, i.e. the 25 y.o. has progressed much farther in the disease than the 80 y.o.? I'm just trying to figure out how triage decisions are made and you seem to have some training in this, Kozak.
If you’re immune compromised and/or terminally ill, I’m not sure a hospital full of flu vics is a place you really want to be in any case.
Charlie Crist the stinking RINO.
It's amazing how many people think that they should be seen in order of coming in at the ER. Sometimes the ER's get real emergencies!
In the military, the decision is basically how can we save the maximum number of lives with the resources at hand. So, someone with multiple limb amputations who is blinded as well but could survive with immediate treatment would be a priority. In this case, a few tourniquets, and some blood would get the patient through and to more definitive care.
Someone with blast injuries and internal bleeding might fully recover if taken for immediate exploratory surgery, but that takes a lot of resources, and they might get delayed.
It’s a complex problem that can change minute by minute as the number of casualties increase, and your resources decrease, or the converse, with increasing resources and fewer casualties. And it really sucks to have to make those calls, none us makes them lightly. We WANT to do everything we can for everyone. But you can’t.
In the civilian world it gets even more complex. Certainly if an 80 year old had a significantly better chance of surviving then the 25 year old you would use the resources for the 80 year old. You certainly would want to give the 25 year old every chance of surviving possible, and that might skew the resources toward the 25 year old. In an ideal world we would be able to do as much or as little for every patient as that patient would need or want. In reality we are ALWAYS balancing resources, costs and benefits.
Although I don’t want Obama or the feds making the decisions, I can guarantee that sooner or later we will have an epidemic, mass casualty attack, etc that will necessitate such decisions being made. When we are out of ventilators, who gets one - the young man who has productive life ahead, or the 80 year old with end stage heart disease?
We need to think about these issues as a society and medical field, or Obama (or whomever is in power at the time) will think about them for us.
When decisions like these need to be made, I would rather they be though out ahead of time than spuriously administered at the point of an AK47
Older people with cancer will be refused hospital care? Florida can KISS retirees good bye... No sane older person would move here, spend money here, or even visit.
Is Crist nuts?
We can save even more money by not treating anyone over 50... how do you feel about that? Seems the same logic would apply...
Uh, hospitals are trying to plan for a possible serious flu pandemic. There are X number of ICU beds. Or do you suggest no one plan for this and just pretend it might not happen?
Sort of like the way New Orleans got ready for Katrina.
It’s worse then that. Being in a hospital if you are immunocompromised at ANY time is a risky proposition flu or not. It’s all risk benefit, does the benefit out way the risk? That can be a tough call.
'Say it loud...say it proud' .. READ THE ARTICLE Newbie.
(and what #18 wrote and responded to you with later on)
It's called, 'Triage'(1).
This has nothing, nada, zero, zip, zilch - to do with the Death Panels.
(1) Look 'triage' up in your dictionary.
The vehicle the journalists are using is H1N1. It seems pretty clear to me why the progressive media has been so complicit in propping up the swine flu story. They are giving the government cover to do this stuff. Get the people afraid, and they're more willing to go along with things they wouldn't normally go along with.
"A crisis is a terrible thing to waste" Including manufactured crises.
I was trying to explain how triage works. Where did you get the idea that I would support no treatment for 50+ people to save money?
“The vehicle the journalists are using is H1N1. It seems pretty clear to me why the progressive media has been so complicit in propping up the swine flu story. They are giving the government cover to do this stuff. Get the people afraid, and they’re more willing to go along with things they wouldn’t normally go along with.
“A crisis is a terrible thing to waste” Including manufactured crises. “
That has been my opinion since the start of the Swine Flu reporting, both how the US has responded as well as the World Health Organization. But when you try to educate folks about the implications of these “public health regulations” you’re treated as a “conspiracy nut”.
If not, why not?
That IS the question. Why not refuse medical care to those over 50?
Or maybe to those who are conservative? Or maybe to Jews? Or Blacks? Or members of "hate groups"? Hospitals could save a fortune if they had one doctor rather than 10 ... why not? They could just "triage"... right?
Good point.
Thanks for the ping!
UH, a year ago it was bird flu. Before that is was SARS.
Before that it was a Bio warfare attack. That doesn’t mean there isn’t a real threat that needs to be planned for. Only idiots would ignore a possible pandemic.
The “knowable” situation they are planning for is a massive flu Pandemic with huge numbers of seriously ill and overwhelming need for ICU beds. Kind of like the military planning it’s Triage for a massive war. Both are “emergency” situations.
By the way as an ER doc I bump up against full ICU’s on a regular basis and guess what, it’s not uncommon to have make Triage decisions about who gets the ICU bed on ordinary days now.
Right.
If the time comes that I'm sent to the back of the line, that's fine. However, under Hussein, I'm afraid there won't be a line for many of us to stand in.
Triage on the spot is one thing, a government edict about who gets what is another can of worms altogether.
Oh the line will be there. It will just be a very very long line.
Government Health Care
” The efficiency of the DMV, the customer service of the Post Office, and the compassion of the IRS”.
Ever wonder why?
Would you buy that excuse from a car manufacturer? They have emergencies ... "excuses" and people fed up with the system. The only thing missing is putting new engineers through "hazing" where they're forced to work 16 hour days for 2 years...internship and all...
Would you buy the car companies' excuse about why your father had to die - because of a manufacturing emergency?
How about this - some innovation. Medical care is delivered the same way it was delivered in the 1950's - the technology's better - medicine's better - drugs are better - the delivery system's the same. UPDATE. INNOVATE.
Aint gonna happen. The silver mafia would have their heads (and I mean absolutely no offense by that terminology).
So nobody should ever plan for a natural disaster? Is that your point? You will be okay with the local hospitals and doctors just “winging it” as the disaster unfolds?
Great. YOU invent a new way to deliver medical care that is somehow limitless, and not rationed by either A cost, or B availability. I’d LOVE to hear your plan.
Planning does not include making decisions in the case of individuals or groups of people. As far as government is concerned, the guiding concept should be all men are created equal. I think I read that somewhere.
The solution: ATM machines.
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