Posted on 10/13/2009 7:26:45 AM PDT by AreaMan
Posted By Doug Giles On October 13, 2009 @ 5:05 am In Culture, Entertainment, Featured Story, Religion | 45 Comments
As far as I’m concerned, a silent or waffling pastor in today’s paranormal climate is unnecessary. I don’t care how much the minister likes kitty cats, candy canes, and if he cries at Celine Dion concerts. Look, Voiceless Vicar, if you’re not currently in the middle of this crucial cultural squabble, pointing out what’s putrid and cheering on what’s proper, then you’re Dr. Evil in my book.
Given that the culture-dividing issues, thanks to Obama, are more obvious than Joan Rivers’ last lip implants, it is mind-boggling to me that many ministers are mute or side with parties, policies and principles that are antithetical to the Judeo-Christian worldview. I don’t know if you got this memo in seminary but pastors are not only supposed to salvage souls but also build the good society.
In some kind of ascending order, it seems to me there are 10 reasons why pastors and priests avoid political and intense cultural issues and thus aid and abet evil:
(Excerpt) Read more at bighollywood.breitbart.com ...
“There was a time when the church was very powerful—in the time when the early Christians rejoiced at being deemed worthy to suffer for what they believed. In those days the church was not merely a thermometer that recorded the ideas and principles of popular opinion; it was a thermostat that transformed the mores of society. Whenever the early Christians entered a town, the people in power became disturbed and immediately sought to convict the Christians for being “disturbers of the peace” and “outside agitators.”’ But the Christians pressed on, in the conviction that they were “a colony of heaven,” called to obey God rather than man. Small in number, they were big in commitment. They were too God-intoxicated to be “astronomically intimidated.” By their effort and example they brought an end to such ancient evils as infanticide and gladiatorial contests. Things are different now. So often the contemporary church is a weak, ineffectual voice with an uncertain sound. So often it is an archdefender of the status quo. Far from being disturbed by the presence of the church, the power structure of the average community is consoled by the church’s silent—and often even vocal—sanction of things as they are.
But the judgment of God is upon the church as never before. If today’s church does not recapture the sacrificial spirit of the early church, it will lose its authenticity, forfeit the loyalty of millions, and be dismissed as an irrelevant social club with no meaning for the twentieth century. Every day I meet young people whose disappointment with the church has turned into outright disgust.”
The excerpt is from “A Letter from a Birmingham Jail” by Martin Luther King
save for later
One Reason Why Pastors Avoid the Culture War:
$$$$ in the collection plates.
This article sets up a straw man and then knocks it down with gusto. Most pastors I know really want to discuss culture war issues more, but reign themselves in when they remind themselves that Christ’s demand is to spread the Gospel to the ends of the earth, not harp on non-believers about how they need to behave better. If the flock is straying, then certainly some stern words are in order, but it is not the pastor’s proper calling to yell at non-Christians about how they should behave. If the lost cannot or will not be saved, correcting their behavior is the job of the politicians and the police, not the pastors.
“$$$$ in the collection plates.”
And you can’t do that if people are disagreeing with your sermon. Therefore, you don’t speak out.
Top 10 reasons can be summed up in one word:
Cowardice!
WWJTBS?
What would John the Baptist say?
A museum quality example of theological ignorance. Hooray! By the way, there are no strawmen in the Giles piece.
So, I see you are fond of straw-men also.
Nice attack, but it might help if you’d back up your insult with some words from Christ, or at least some words from St. Paul. Have any?
In what sense? Please explain.
That’s more or less John MacArthur’s perspective.
A Christian's **most** important and urgent mission field is his own children. His second most urgent mission field is the children of his congregation!
The godless Marxist/fascists understood that the most efficient way to corrupt the culture was to corrupt the children. Don't we have quotes enough from tyrants proving this? Well...If godless tyrants can corrupt a culture by indoctrinating children, Christians can surely create a righteous culture by nurturing their children by giving them a thoroughly Christian education!
Why aren't private tuition-free Christian schools available and open for **all** the children in this nation?
Answer:
**There are too many government school employees sitting in the pews, and business people and their employees who benefit from the government schools. Few pastors are brave enough to bite these hands that put money in the collection plate!
**There are few pastors who are brave enough to tell all their parishioners that they must generously fund Christian education. Our nation **is** wealthy enough that every child in this nation could and should have access to a privately funded tuition-free Christian education. Pastors are refusing to be leaders in Christian education.
**Too many pastors lack the courage to tell parents to give up the free government school babysitting! These pastors are weenies that don't have the moral fiber to boldly tell parents that their children are more important than two-working parent incomes, big houses, new cars, and full-service cable connections.
There you go. You nailed it.
The reason things aren’t like they used to be is not necessarily because “the church” is less powerful, but rather, because people’s hearts have become hardened and more depraved; therefore, reaching them with the gospel has grown increasingly difficult.
There you go. You nailed it.
The reason things aren’t like they used to be is not necessarily because “the church” is less powerful, but rather, because people’s hearts have become hardened and more depraved; therefore, reaching them with the gospel has grown increasingly difficult.
If nothing else, he misses the point of one of the verses he cites:
“”You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people’s feet.”
Salt cannot lose it saltiness except by dilution. Pure salt is ALWAYS salty, and cannot be anything else. It only loses saltiness when mixed with impurity.
Diluting the Gospel message to focus on the sins of OTHERS is wrong. It is EASY to preach against homosexuality, since (probably) there are no homosexuals who are pillars of the church.
Try preaching against gluttony - against seeking comfort in another slice of cake instead of God’s word. Try preaching against the sin of ignoring God’s word because you are too busy watching ‘American Idol’!
THAT is how a pastor can lose his job...
I Corinthians 2:1-5 - And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
****One Reason Why Pastors Avoid the Culture War:
$$$$ in the collection plates.***
Wrong. 501-(3c). The IRS has them by the yingyang.
You’re wrong, of course. Seems to me that there is an entire book in the New Testament devoted to chasting the flock.
I will agree most pastors don’t want to get involved in challanging the members to live better lives. They’re called ‘Seeker Churches’. We no long go to church. There is no point.
Um, that’s my point. Please read my comment again. Of course Pastors should “chastise” the flock when the flock strays, but its not their job to get involved in discussions about the behavior of non-believers, which is, almost by definition, what it means to engage in “culture wars”.
The issue is addressed in one of his opening statements:
I don’t know if you got this memo in seminary but pastors are not only supposed to salvage souls but also build the good society.
How does "build the good society" equate to "yelling at non-Christians about how they should behave?"
Your simplistic and misleading statement gives the impression that Pastor Giles is advocating some Saturday Nigh Live style Church Lady attitude. This is the kind of moralizing, uptight (and I am sure hypocritical) caricature of Christians that popular culture loves to trot out when they think the bible-thumpers are trespassing into real issues.
Or maybe you prefer the Father Mulcahy type of milquetoast Christian that is ineffectual and intellectually castrated?
Author is dad of Hannah Giles, of ACORN-busting fame, btw.
Where do the Gospels or the Epistles provide that it is the Pastor’s job to “build the good society”? Am I missing something?
Well, I guess either right before or right after the section where it says Christians should oppose and fight against slavery or racism or criminality or the pornification of children or the rounding up of Jews or political corruption, etc.
What? There are no sections that say we should do any of those things? Golly.
Yes, you are missing something. Here is an example:
When society says, hey it is ok to dismember or chemically dissolve your innocent unborn child for your own convenience, the "church" and Christians should say...Hey, that's not right and this is why.
Christians should be ready to offer up and defend their world view in the marketplace of ideas and not just huddle in their intellectual ghettos without a voice or a vote.
You’re describing the Seeker Churches.
There is no reason for believers to attend such churches. In fact, since they focus on not offending non-believers, there is every reason believers should not attend. Not a single word coming from the pulpit will challange or be of encouragement to believers.
Funny, I didn’t see Jesus saying any of these things in the Gospels, and I didn’t see St. Paul saying any of these things either. What, you think they didn’t need to, because the Roman Empire was the model of angelic behavior, unlike our current age?
Yes, all those things you cite are horrendus and I speak out about them every day. Yet, I also understand that the importance of these things pales in comparison to the salvation of souls, as evidenced by the behavior of our Lord.
501-(3c)? The IRS has them by the yingyang?
Doubt it. Check around. Most of the male pastors/priests/worship team leaders you’ll find aren’t necessarily queer, but they squat to pee, by choice. Like Obama, they see financial advantage in trying to stay in the middle of the road. Like Obama, most pastoral types are not much for making hard choices and stirring up hard feelings.
Why?
Bingo.
Same reason you do, I presume, because I think its wrong. That is beside the point — I am not a pastor preaching from the pulpit. If I go to a church and hear all about the horrors and injustices in the world and about how they need to be corrected, yet hear precious little about the ministry and words of Jesus Christ, I am petitioning the board to terminate that Pastor at once.
That is the point.
Um, a little cynical there?
My pastor speaks out about current issues, even has local and state politicians give talks at our church. The church’s finances seem just fine.
Your comment #29 is pretty cynical too. Maybe you should change churches if you so disrespect your current pastor(s).
They are not mutually exclusive.
Yes, in the hierarchy of important things...the fact that we need to be saved is primary, much like breathing is more important than bathing or going to work. After all, if you stop breathing everything else (like work or showers) really pale in comparison.
So, we can focus all of our time and effort on breathing until we are living in poverty and we gag on our personal stench. Hey, the gospels never instruct us to bathe.
Actually that is the point.
Also, it's ok for you and I talk and consider these issues but not for a pastor?
If I go to a church and hear all about the horrors and injustices in the world and about how they need to be corrected, yet hear precious little about the ministry and words of Jesus Christ, I am petitioning the board to terminate that Pastor at once.
Nice false dichotomy. Giles never said this and nobody is advocating this. Preaching salvation and being fully engaged in the culture are NOT mutually exclusive.
There’s no reason to “harp on nonbelievers to behave better”.
There’s EVERY reason to harp on BELIEVERS to behave better.
The behavior is a result of salvation, not the road to it.
The “bigger picture”, ie, “the society”,
is to be left to God to work out.
Our job is to build better families. The “betterment of society” follows from that (by the “invisible hand”).
This is like the capitalist vs socialist view as well.
Capitalists believe that the individual acting to better himself betters the whole,
and the socialist believes that all good must come from a centrally controlled locus of discretion.
Seeker churches are like “Intro to Christianity”.
Once you outgrow that, find a Bible believing and preaching church.
It doesn’t matter what Giles advocates or doesn’t advocate; what matters is what actually happens. What happens is that the pastors get caught up in the passions of the day and, whether they actually say it or not, the message is conveyed that the pastor cares more about those issues than the issues of salvation. The “salvation” part of the message becomes an afterthought.
Salvation begets “good behavior” (or should).
If anyone is in Christ he is a new creation,
the old is gone, behold the new has come.
No, salvation is not only breathing, it is also the most satisfying thing in our lives ... so it is also our vacations, our nice dinners, our comfortable homes, etc. In other words, salvation is not only needful, it is, more importantly, profoundly attractive and satisfying. Its not as if we just “get saved” and then move on to other things; rather the salvation (and sharing it with others) should be the goal of our lives.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Agai, no evidence of that.
I refer you to Giles' original statement,
...pastors are not only supposed to salvage souls but also build the good society.
He says right there that salvation is what they are supposed to be preaching.
You are the one accusing Giles of making the importance of preaching salvation secondary to cultural issues. There is no evidence that he does this, so you are either lying about him or misrepresenting him.
So, did you miss the point of what I wrote or ignored it because it was detrimental to your position?
You are pushing a form of pietism, and there is a large literature that points out its theological bankruptcy. If you simply were to read the Great Commission you would see that Christ is urging his disciples not only to teach all the things that he taught, but to teach them to everyone. Then if you were to read the Gospels you would notice that Christ is indeed telling people how to live and commands people to observe the Law, not as a means of justification, but as a matter of sanctification. In fact, much of His ministry was given to rescuing the Law from the corruption of it by the Pharissees. Nowhere is Christ’s ministry limited to a narrow “salvationism”. Until the retrograde fundamentalist pietism of the 20th Century took hold, no one would have disputed the obligation of pastors to apply the Bible to all of life. The idea that correcting behavior is the job of POLITICIANS (!) and police (post 5) and not the role of pastors is contemptible.
Thank you very much. I was trying to say something similar, and I missed it by a mile. Well stated.
The churches we’ve attended preach little more than mush. That mush chips away at a persons faith in God.
We’ve simply quit going.
Those would be five Bible verses.
Sorry, didn’t mean to say that you were quoting it out of context, I just thought it would be a good time to link to an article about quoting bible verses.
Did you miss the point of my post?
You are the one that implied in your post that salvation is not enough — you went on to say that its like breathing but there are other things that need to be done, like working, etc.
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