Posted on 10/05/2009 8:13:43 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
The New York Times published an article last Thursday on the Swiss health care system, which can be viewed here: www.nytimes.com/2009/10/01/health/policy/01swiss.html?_r=1&em.
The system is simple. There is no "public option," that is, there is no government health insurance program, such as Medicare or Medicaid. There is very little employer-provided health insurance, presumably because employee health benefits are not tax exempt; almost all health insurance is therefore bought by the insured. Everyone is required to buy a health insurance policy that provides a specified minimum of benefits (they can buy more expensive policies if they want), but there are subsidies for people for whom the expense would be a hardship; about 30 percent of the population receives a subsidy. Because of the heavy subsidization, the prices charged by the insurance companies are limited by government, but at a high level. (The limits therefore limit doctors' fees and incomes, and doctors are less well paid in Switzerland, relative to average wages, than in the United States.) There are many insurance companies, and people can switch freely among them. Copayments or deductibles are larger, and as a result the average out-of-pocket cost of health care is higher in Switzerland than the United States--an average of $1,350 per year, versus $890 in the United States. But the aggregate cost of health care is much lower in Switzerland--11 percent of GDP versus our 16 percent--though higher than in any other country besides the United States.
There is, as I said, no special program for the elderly, corresponding to Medicare--which may be why male life expectancy at age 65 is higher in the United States than in Switzerland, although female life expectancy at age 65 is higher in Switzerland and life expectancy at birth is substantially higher in Switzerland, in part because infant mortality is only about half as great as here. The quality of medical care does not appear to be inferior in Switzerland to that in the United States, and there appears to be no problem of queuing, as in Britain and Canada. Indeed the Swiss have significantly more doctors, nurses, and hospital beds per capita than the United States, which suggests that there may be less queuing there than here; and there is general satisfaction among the Swiss with their system, although there is some grumbling over the high cost of medical care.
Of course one must not put too much weight on a single article, but the information in the Times piece appears to be corroborated, at least the statistical data; and some of my description of the Swiss system is drawn from other sources.
If the United States could reduce its medical costs from 16 percent of GDP to 11 percent, the savings would be $700 billion a year; and if the reduction did not reduce the health or longevity of the American population or create queuing costs, there would be no offsetting cost; the $700 billion in savings would be net.
But while the Swiss health-care system may be great for the Swiss, comparing the health-care systems of two countries, even if they are broadly similar (both the United States and Switzerland are wealthy, modern, Western, democratic, capitalist nations), is treacherous, because beneath the broad similarities are potentially important relevant differences. Two of particular importance in the present context are, first, that the Swiss are probably healthier than Americans, on average, apart from any superiority of Swiss health care, and, second, that the Swiss probably have lower expectations of health care than Americans.
The Swiss do not have a large "underclass" (corresponding to the residents of our inner cities) that is poor and has a very high murder rate and high infant mortality and a high incidence of AIDS and other diseases. In addition, the Swiss do not have America's obesity problem, which is a source of abnormally high medical costs because of the treatment costs of diabetes and other diseases to which obese people are disproportionately prone.
And the Swiss people in all likelihood do not expect as much medical intervention as Americans too. Europeans tend to be more fatalistic than Americans. They do not share our preoccupation with extending the longevity of very old people, or our exaggerated faith in medical science that leads some of us to describe the death even of a nonagenerian relative as a "medical failure." Nor do they have as great a propensity as we to insist (after researching a disease on the Internet) on receiving medical care beyond what a doctor's professional judgment thinks warranted.
Our expectations regarding medical treatment are connected to our poor health: Americans want both to indulge in an unhealthy but enjoyable life style and live forever, and they try to square the circle by demanding extravagant (by international standards) health care. (I am exaggerating, of course; some of our poor health is due to ignorance rather than to a deliberate choice to substitute medical treatment for healthful living.)
So we might adopt the Swiss system and discover that our aggregate costs of health care had declined little from their current 16 percent of GDP. Indeed, because of increased coverage, it might increase (see below).
The proper use to be made of the experiences of other nations with health care is not advocacy for our adopting the health-care system of a nation broadly comparable to ours that spends a lower fraction of GDP on health care than we do. It is to note the methods used by foreign countries whose health-care systems are well regarded by the local population and see whether any of them could work well here, bearing in mind the dangers of piecemeal adoption of foreign methods. (An example of those dangers is the adoption by the Detroit auto companies some years ago of the "quality circles" used by Japanese auto companies to increase productivity by encouraging their workers to suggest productivity-enhancing innovations. The quality circles failed in Detroit because the auto companies did not realize that what made the quality circles work in Japan was the practice of lifetime employment; our workers were reluctant to suggest productivity improvements because they knew it might well result in a smaller workforce and therefore in layoffs.)
The features of the Swiss health-care system that seem well adapted to American conditions (though whether their adoption would be politically feasible is a separate question--to which the answer is "no," at least at present) are, first, repealing the tax exemption for employer-furnished health benefits, since the exemption both creates an artificial incentive for employers rather than employees to buy health insurance and disguises the cost of the benefits to the employees (in lower wages); second, making everyone buy health insurance, in order to prevent adverse selection (that is, excess demand by the unhealthy), the problem to which group (normally employer-group) insurance is a second-best solution; third, requiring significant copayments or deductibles so that the marginal cost of health care to the insured is not so low as to induce the overuse of medical resources; and fourth, providing no special program for the elderly, but instead requiring them to buy insurance like everyone else, with the cost subsidized only if they cannot afford the cost of the insurance rather than just because they are old.
Such reforms would probably produce a net savings in aggregate U.S. health-care costs, though this is not certain, because of the subsidies and because any extension of coverage--which would be considerable because everyone would be required to have health insurance and the number of uninsured in the United States exceeds 40 million persons--is likely to increase the demand for health care. The subsidies are transfer payments rather than costs in the sense of consuming real resources, but worrisome nevertheless because of the potential long-term harm to the economy from our soaring public debt. But the aggregate transfers and (real) costs would probably be less under a version of the Swiss approach than under the approach urged by the Administration, which does not have credible cost-saving measures build into it.
Appears to be logical and can be mathematically defended.
Neither thing can be done by the present idiots in White House and the associated congresscritters.
It’s still a tax.
Interesting ideas worthy of discussion. I have to wonder when the AARP will show up to picket him for being insensitive to the needs of seniors. Seriously, though, I also wonder what this would mean to the income of doctors.
Should the Swiss Health Care System Be Our Model?
Cheesy and full of holes??
Swiss and Model in the same thread title? hmmm
About 20% of their domestic workforce is non-Swiss who are allowed to be there only legally and with proper documentation. If they aspire to Swiss citizenship, it is a long process which requires petitioning for the support of their neighbors and community.
Needless to say, professional moochers seldom make the cut.
But nothing else.
Not at all clear it’s constitutional. It’s not a tax.
DEFINITION
tax n. a governmental assessment (charge) upon property value, transactions (transfers and sales), licenses granting a right, and/or income. These include Federal and state income taxes, county and city taxes on real property, state and/or local sales tax based on a percentage of each retail transaction, duties on imports from foreign countries, business licenses, Federal tax (and some states’ taxes) on the estates of persons who have died, taxes on large gifts, and a state “use” tax in lieu of sales tax imposed on certain goods bought outside of the state.
I got to the part about the insurance requirement and couldn’t find it in The Constitution. Stopped right there.
I dunno... Does Switzerland have a huge base of Democrat parasites who expect working, taxpaying, traditional Republican families to pay for all their "free" stuff?
Actually, the DO, indirectly.
The Swiss, and every other socialist European country, are freeloaders on the American working taxpayer.
They can BE socialist because they don’t have to spend any money on their own defense, relying on the US military to bail them out if they’re invaded.
Liberty says government can not force you to do anything other than minimal adherence to law...and that law is (almost) all about how you treat other people. For government to be able to FORCE you to take care of yourself--in insurance--really seems contrary our American constitutionally guaranteed freedoms.
At the same time....being told you must care for yourself in insurance...(just as we are in effect told we must buy our own food, shelter, and clothing...) may well be the minimum way we can keep essentials of a free-market health system--and avoid a single-payer (government) system.
The big problem is Switzerland's population is tiny....at LESS than 7.5 million people...and citizenship is (and always has been) notoriously difficult to acquire. Therefore the Swiss people are extremely culturally homogeneous. A VERY different kind of people than the USA.
Also Swiss democracy, compared to the American Republic, is highly decentralized...(they vote on practically everything... A Swiss friend told me the last thing voted on was the color of their village trash cans...) hence, there are no great individual dominant industrial/governmental powers--especially amidst politicians--in Switzerland. As a comparison to the USA...your average Swiss citizen cannot name the current Prime Minister....as he has so little power.
American representative democracy does not work that way--and has a relatively few powerful players--therefore there is more risk of us moving into a centrally planned system.
Anyway--I think if the USA goes Obama's way--Switzerland wouldn't be a bad place at all to live....even if only my grandkids could think about citizenship there!
Good point.
“Should the Swiss Health Care System Be Our Model?”
No. Our model is the best health care in the world.
It isn’t broken. Don’t “fix” it!
It can’t be. The Swiss are a much more homogenous and unified group of people. To put it another way, the Swiss don’t have 25% of their population looking to get a free ride from the government and 10 million people sneaking in the country every single year looking for freebies and things to steal.
We can have a big government with closed borders or a completely free market with open borders but we can’t have a big government with open borders. The cost is too high.
If only the leaches and freeloaders would stop - no chance of that, so in short we cannot be like the Swiss.
About the size of a medium Texas ranch!
Creative editing of a “timeless” song
One, two, three, four...
Hrmm!
One, two, (one, two, three, four!
Let me tell you how it will be;
There’s one for you, nineteen for me.
‘Cause I’m the taxman,
Yeah, I’m the taxman.
If you’re not sick, I’ll tax your health
If your neighbor get sick I’ll tax your wealth
Cause I’m the taxman,
Yeah, I’m the taxman
If you don’t like my cap & trade
turn up your heat your bank I’ll raid
cause I’m the taxman
yeah, I’m the taxman
Should five per cent appear too small,
Be thankful I don’t take it all.
‘Cause I’m the taxman,
Yeah, I’m the taxman.
(if you drive a car, car;) - I’ll tax the street;
(if you try to sit, sit;) - I’ll tax your seat;
(if you get too cold, cold;) - I’ll tax the heat;
(if you take a walk, walk;) - I’ll tax your feet.
Taxman!
‘Cause I’m the taxman,
Yeah, I’m the taxman.
Don’t ask me what I want it for, (ah-ah, mister Wilson)
If you don’t want to pay some more. (ah-ah, mister heath)
‘Cause I’m the taxman,
Yeah, I’m the taxman.
Now Rangel go too far far, no need to pay
Geittner just forgot har, we’ll make no hay
Tommy Daschle didn’t know, it’s quite okay
Sibelious did it too, but it’s another day
Now my advice for those who die, (taxman)
Declare the pennies on your eyes. (taxman)
‘Cause I’m the taxman,
Yeah, I’m the taxman.
And you’re working for no one but me.
Taxman!
Its broken for those of us who cannot afford $1000 per
month or more premiums for private coverage because we have a disqualifying precondition, and who aren’t covered by an employer plan, and who aren’t old enough for Medicare.
They can BE socialist because they dont have to spend any money on their own defense, relying on the US military to bail them out if theyre invaded.
The Swiss also, with their Militia military system (modeled on the pre-Civil War USA system) are also arguably the best armed and prepared continental European power...and certainly the best in the world of a country less than 8 million!
Unlike us too, the Swiss never stopped being prepared for a nuclear war either....all houses and buildings have fallout shelters, for example, and since most of Switzerland is only accessible through the Alps via tunnel....even the tunnels are wired with explosives to be destroyed--in the event of a world war.
Switzerland cannot be compared to the rest of the American-dependent wimpy European countries. Don't mess with the Swiss!
Actually if you just reword it, I think it might be a plan I could get behind.
"Swiss Model should be our Health Care system."

"Doctor, Doctor, Give me the news I've got a bad case of loving you..."
No!!! The "everyone is required" is unconstituional, according to the U.S. Constitution!!!
We do not now, nor ever, look to Europe, for new infringements on the wonderful Constitution that God has granted us. We should not allow any congressional, president nor court give away the American Rights!
A free market system is all well and good, and constitutional, I agree.
However, the way our system is now-—hospitals are REQUIRED TO TREAT people who cannot pay for their services. Current American ideals of mercy on this are solidly in place—and not about to change. In other instances too, the poor receive a lower standard of care than the rest of us....something that also bothers American conscience.
How to pay for all the uninsured (much less than Obama’s 45 million people, of course) is the concern, because the current system — where the rest of us pay...through insurance fees, for the irresponsible, who don’t have insurance or the means—just doesn’t work. Obama’s real concern though, is naturally to increase government power and control...through, ultimately a centralized system.
I for one would rather have a mandated private insurance system....than a mandated centralized (socialistic) system... Are both limitations on liberty? Yes. Is one (much) less unconstitutional—and less Marxist—than the other? Yes indeed.
Put another way, if we could reduce our costs by $700 billion, that would be $700 billion less dollars for the people who work in the medical field today, probably meaning massive layoffs, and people making a lot less money which would discourage the brightest from going into the field.
>> Switzerland has one of the world’s highest gun ownership rates <<
Not only that:
Every able-bodied male of military age is Switzerland is REQUIRED to keep an army-issued rifle in his home.
(It’s no accident that Hitler didn’t invade Switzerland. He and his deputies feared the Swiss could defeat the Wehrmacht.)
Actually not JUST a rifle, but a full fledged fully automatic (machine gun) true Assault Rifle.
(Its no accident that Hitler didnt invade Switzerland. He and his deputies feared the Swiss could defeat the Wehrmacht.)
Addionally, picture also say, Pennsylvania...completely encircled by the Rocky Mountains....and that is Switzerland. A pretty great place, IMHO.
Modern Swiss weapons. (Mostly SIG.)
7.5 million illegals on a single ranch? Hmmm...
One of the most common things you will find in Swiss homes, the SIG 90 assault rifle.
The Swiss Army comprises 450,000 men who are given their service rifles and who have to complete a minimum of two weeks service each year, serving from the age of 18 until they are 50 (this age will be dropped to 45 soon). After completing their service, the fully-automatic capability of the rifle is permanently disabled, and the rifle is given back to the former soldier who may keep it. Soldiers are also issued a comprehensive cleaning kit, three 20-round magazines, and a "corn-beef can" of 50 rounds of 5.6mm ammunition, as well as a bayonet. Swiss soldiers must practice their marksmanship regularly under the terms of the Obligatory Rifle Shooting Programme. Switzerland has one of the highest rates of gun ownership in the world, yet maintains a remarkably low homicide and armed crime rate.
It is the hospitals who need to clean up their act, not force every American to cover their backsides for doing treatments on each and everyone who shows up at their doors.
That's exactly why many docs are grouping together and creating medical clinics so that they can really provide adequate, quality for their patients.
Have you looked closely at hospital staff lately?? Many, if not most, look as though they used to work at either the Post Office, DMV, or TSA ACORN and their behavior is about the same - rude, belligerent and obnoxious. Besides their mannerisms, their personal hygiene is appalling. If any of these were serving you food in a restaurant, you'd ask for another waiter/ress or leave the restaurant. (The might actually work behind the counter at a McDonalds but other than the fast food service industry, they'd be rejected.)
Finally, we need NOT give away more of our rights merely because businesses (hospitals, clinics) are treating those who have no medical.
We need not give away more liberty for the promise of security. It has never worked!
And another thing, I'm sick of the “conservative” apologists that whine “it's better than a public option.” We don't need any more big government “conservatives.”
It should be obvious that the US government is not capable of running health care. The government does not even try to stop illegals from entering the country (after 9-11 no less).
Say it isn’t so... The NAILERMAN isn’t the “Taxman,” is he? (shudder)
Nobody should be forced to buy an insurance policy. It’s not like with cars, sick people aren’t damaging other people’s property.
nah——jist usin the beatles to make a time tested point
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