Posted on 10/04/2009 12:05:20 AM PDT by neverdem
"Put not your trust in princes," says Psalm 146, but both liberal Jews and Christians put all their trust in a Prince from Chicagoland in the last election. A prince of a guy who now feels he is empowered to carry out a Revolution from Above (Jozef Stalin's phrase). You can trust this guy. I mean, a black guy with a Harvard Law degree? And he wrote both of his autobiographies like an angel? Women all over the land had Momasms when Obama appeared on TV.
Ping
“Christians who don’t really believe much in their faith also tend to lean Left.”
Christians who don’t really believe much in their faith are not Christians at all...
What? You think they make hats?
My local library had no copies of The 5000-Year Leap until Glenn Beck started recommending it. Now there are six, and they are steadily signed out.
Reading through it gives me a feeling of unease, realizing what different people we are from then.
Our current politicians are infants compared to the founders. They seem to know nothing except "what's in it for me, how do I get reelected?"
And we the public provide and then vote for these substandard people.
A quote from the book I read today, from James Madison in the Federalist Papers:
"It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood; if they be repealed or revised before they are promulgated, or undergo such incessant changes that no man, who knows what the law is today, can guess what it will be tomorrow. Law is defined to be a rule of action; but how can that be a rule, which is little known and less fixed?"
I thought Madison was dead, but apparently he heard about the health care and amnesty bills, and wrote about them.
Liberals of all religious backgrounds (Lutherans, Buddhists, fire worshippers, whatever) love Obambi.
Conservatives of all religious backgrounds oppose him.
That's true of the Jews, and everyone else.
Not at a almost 80% purity, and not through their entire American history, the Jews never vary, ever.
You’re right, Ansell...though I love Jews.
Many of them have self destructing voting patterns.
I don't think there's any evidence Jewish liberals were more likely to vote for Obama than liberals of any other faith.
And the vast majority of people who voted for Obama were obviously not Jews.
Now a high percentage of Jews are liberals, but there are a variety of reasons for that. Some of them are simply geographical -- white people who live in cities and inner suburbs in the Northeast and the West Coast tend to vote overwhelmingly liberally, and most Jews live in liberal areas in the Northeast and the West Coast. There are a number of other factors -- the increasing prominence of evangelicals within the Republican Party for one -- that haven't helped, but I think if you simply look at where Jews live and compare them to their neighbors you don't see much or any discrepancy.
Look at Ward 3 in Washington, DC for example. Ward 3 is 80% white, and the vast majority of residents are not Jewish. Yet Ward 3 voted 83% for Obama -- in line with white liberal areas in the Northeast and West Coast.
The real question you should be asking is what's up with liberals -- of any religion! And why are they so concentrated in the Northeast and on the West Coast.
Jews vote the way their neighbors vote.
You are a liar and full of BS. I spent a lot of time showing you all this before.
This is a wonderful article.
I have had just this discussion: that liberals are hard core believers in THEIR Religion of Liberalism. This article explains it better and gives the neediness of the secular liberals its proper name and description.
They let Hope strangle Common Sense. What a wonderful turn of phrase.
I'm afraid you have put your finger on a very unattractive side to the American Jewish experience. There are ways to sugarcoat this but the unvarnished truth is there is a distinct element of bigotry against believing Christians which animates many American Jews, especially secular Jews. It is evidenced from time to time in the way that evangelicals are belittled as "snake handlers" or "holy rollers." It was distinctly seen in the treatment of George Bush beginning when he imprudently stated that is hero was Jesus Christ. Much of the war against Christianity that has been conducted in the marketplace and the school system of America has been waged by secular Jews.
One need only compare the reaction to mell Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ" by The Anti-defamation League and even by the Hollywood establishment with the Hollywood establishment's chronic treatment of Protestant believers to encounter a rank hypocrisy.
It is my belief that this subtle but not so politically unacceptable bigotry accounts for some part of Jewish voting patterns.
I will never forget a business associate saying to me, "at Christmas time the goyim get crazy but at Easter time they get dangerous." This was said years before Bill Gibson's movie. Imagine if I as a believing Christian had served up such an observation about Jews? It is culturally acceptable for a Jew to say such a thing to a Christian but it is entirely unacceptable for a Christian to say the equivalent to a Jew. Such is the state of political correctness in our society.
Some time ago I wrote this reply which I offer now to illustrate that my observations about Jewish prejudice against believing Christians is not the core nor even a dominant part of my thinking about Jewish voting behavior. However, to the reasons listed in the following reply I now think must be added by observations from above.
Poll: Most Jewish voters want Obama to win
May 12, 2008
By way of full disclosure, I am an unalloyed goy so I might be wading into waters which are much deeper than I know as I make the following generalizations:
There is a scriptural commandment in the Torah and in those writings which exegete it, to go forth not to proselytize but to do good. As conservatives, we recognize there is a human tendency to want to do more good by grabbing the levers of government to organize the whole of society to do even more good.
If one is secular, and I think these statistics embrace secular Jews to a far greater degree than observant Jews, the temptation is almost irresistible to play God. If one is to play God, by definition, one seeks to play in the biggest playground of all and that is offered up along with control of the levers of government. Hence, Jewish secularists, like Christian secularists, as a group tend to be statists.
Jewish tradition going back to Russia is a tradition of socialism. For example, that tradition was carried over into the kibbutzim in Israel.
Jewish culture puts a premium on education and traditionally makes the fool the butt of jokes. This is been especially harmful to George Bush. In the modern American secular Jewish culture to announce oneself to be a Republican is the practical equivalent of taking a pratfall in front of all your neighbors and friends at the country club. Can you imagine a Jewish intellectual at a prestigious American University confessing to one and all that he supports George Bush? As a kid I can recall being told how stupid Dwight Eisenhower was and every subsequent Republican president in my lifetime has been called either stupid or clumsy or both -except Nixon.
Liberalism is a substitute religion and therefore secular Jews, like secular goyim, gravitate to that political persuasion. Liberalism as a religion trumps religious affiliation of non- observant Jews and trumps cultural affinity to Jews who might otherwise be sympathetic to Israel.
Because of Europe's unfortunate history of programs, Jews traditionally are wary of aggressive Christianity and many secular Jews have not yet come to the understanding that American fundamentalist Christians are great friends of Israel and hence of Jews in general. There are other issues which Jewish history make Jews as a group favor one side as a matter of self-preservation. These include, for example, immigration. And they also include the end to segregation and civil rights for all races and creeds.
Barak Obama, of course, is the beau ideal of the black man, well-educated and articulate, who is on the right side of all of these issues and who embodies in his own person the inclusiveness which, if universally practiced, protects Jews as a class.
Have Jews ever not voted liberal in America? How about before 1890, or post 1890?
Anecdotally, it is interesting to note that the Confederate Secretary of War was a Jew. Of course Karl Marx was not widely disseminated in the 1860s.
Anecdotally?
In real life we have the voting numbers from 1916 until now.
Because: Liberalism is a mental disorder.
Very interesting post, but one thing I disagree with is that among religious/Orthodox Jews there is even more “bigotry” against “Gentiles”, yet it was the orthodox Jews who were mostly among the 22% who voted against Obozo.
As far as the “obsession” with the Jewish vote, one of the main issues concerns American policy towards the Jewish state- and why the Jews keep voting for the party who is more aligned with the values of Muslim countries.
I am truly disgusted with friends and family members who voted for obozo and who fell into the fringe media trap of ostracizing Sarah Palin. I frequently send articles to them from FR, and I rarely get any acknowledgement of the truth, that oboxzo is ANTI-ISRAEL and ANTI-SEMITIC.
Are we to call a rabid animal a bunny because it's rabid,
and the wolf can't help it?
The West Coast diaspora of liberalism was partly sown in the 1840's by the settling of Oregon (from Yankee States, whose values they carried west), and partly by the Yankeefication of California, which I don't know enough about but which happened, as long ago as California's admission to the Union, and even before that.
Basically, it's a two-word answer: Settlement patterns.
Elvis for President!
I'm sorry... but I have to agree :(
ping
Christians who lean left become apostate secularists.
They now worship the State, and believe their own goodness and support of the apparatus will put the whip in their own hands, for a change.
They are idiots unintentionally leading their children, and everyone else's, to Gulag2.
The Israeli Jew vs Muslim struggle and wars are over land and Jerusalem and the Temple Mount
This is why the world pays more attention to this war than other conflicts....Such as China taking over Tibet or the Hutus massacring a million Tutsies (or was the other way around?)
For those who do not know, Psalm 146 is part of the liturgy for the daily morning prayers of traditional Jews. Usually, at least where I have been, in the early part of the service where this Psalm is included, the leader might read or chant the first few words, and then read the rest silently until he gets near the end of the Psalm, and then chant aloud the final verse or two.
One of the prominent members of my congregation is a survivor. He almost always reads this verse aloud (in Hebrew) while everyone else is reading silently. The full verse, as translated in the book I have at hand is, "Do not rely on nobles, nor on a human being, for he holds no salvation."
ML/NJ
Middle East and terrorism, occasional political and Jewish issues Ping List. High Volume
If you’d like to be on or off, please FR mail me.
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Psalm 118:9 It is better to take refuge in YHvH Than to trust in princes.shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
Who was the Secretary of War for the CSA? Never heard that before.
INDEED.
He also later served as Secretary of State.
As a Jew myself, and someone whose family contains an entire army of Obama supporters, I have to say that many of your comments are spot on, especially considering the distrust of Christians and the replacement of traditional faith with socialism (especially for those us from the Great Pale in eastern Europe) and liberalism, which is, as P.J. O’Rourke once wrote, is just socialism sold by the drink.
It’s easy to understand the distrust of Christians by the Jews; just look at European history. Even the modern evangelical appreciation for the Jews and Isreal seem predicated upon the idea that it’s great that you guys have re-established Israel so our guy, Jesus, can come back and, incidentially, trash the hell out your homeland in the process, along with the possibility of another worldwide genocide against the Jews. Talk about your conditional love.
And I’m writing this as I prepare to attend Mass this morning. I can just see many different sides here.
There’s something that you’ve missed about Jewish tradition, though. The Jews have had a long tradition of falling away from the word of God. The Old Testament is filled with lurid stories about cities and people who have decided that dancing around that gold cow seemed like a better time than reading some dusty words from God. The abandonment of the current generations of Jews into socialism and secularism is part of a long tradition, which has a predictable ending of suffering and hardship. Look at me; married a Catholic, and my son sits next to me every Sunday memorizing the Nicean Creed. Yes, that’s guilt speaking, and I can see my grandfather’s stern look even though he’s been gone now for three decades.
Socialism is the new golden calf. We’ll pay the price for it, and in the typical Jewish tradition, turn around and teach the world about what happens when you abandon God for the empty promises of secular utopia. A lot of Jews seem to think that being God’s chosen people means a smooth, rich life. They’re so wrong. When the Lord God said to us that we were his chosen people, the real question for us should be, “Chosen for what?”
Thanks for keeping this civil! What's your problem?
Regarding your chart, do you think there might have been another reason for New York Jews in the late 1930s/1940s to increasingly support FDR, while support from other ethnicities was waning? What else was going on in the world then? Anything in Europe that might have been of interest?
Thanks, but I’m not seeking to change religions on this forum.
Religion is less important than seeking salvation from YHvH.
You say it's bigotry. I say it's fear. They fear the political power of any religious group. I don't think Jews care much one way or the other about evangelical theology. I understand that many believing Christians strongly support Israel, but Jews are more worried about the wider history of religious oppression.
I respect that you feel that way, but I'm not interested.
I respect that you feel that way, but I'm not interested.
Have a pleasant journey on the wide road of life. Mazol Tov.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
I think you're making the mistake of seeing Christianity and Judaism as being the same religion except for doctrinal differences. That's not correct. Deutsch doesn't see himself as superior, because Jews -- unlike most Christians -- don't believe that their faith is the only path to righteousness. Jews don't proselytize, not because they are selfish or feel superior, but because it's not necessary for gentiles to become Jews to be right in the eyes of God.
Your chart does not break down Jews into observant and secular (i.e., JINOs). If it did, I suspect you would see some some very interesting patterns.
Which is exactly the point Ann Coulter made and to which Deutsch affected offense.
The point is that, conceding Jews do not proselytize and further conceding the Jews recognize other paths to God, it is nevertheless an implicit assertion that Judaism is superior to a proselytizing religion, otherwise the proffered theology would be accepted and the Jew would convert. It makes no difference that the Jews says, I do not reject your way to God because I believe my religion is superior, the rejection speaks for itself.
The proselytizing Christian is animated to proffer his salvation because he believes it to be superior, or even exclusive. The Jew declines because he believes his way is superior, even if not exclusive. I do not see that there is offense to be taken only from the offering and not from the declining. I see the problem as cultural, coming out of the absence of a tradition of proselytizing among Jews.
And this brings us back to the original subject. When the proselytizing impulse among Christians lurches to excess as it did, for example, in the pogroms in Russia, Jews understandably become wary of religions which enthusiastically proselytize such as evangelical Christians. My plea is that modern Jews understand that they no longer live in tsarist Russia and that Bible believing Baptists are not Cossacks.
God made a Covenant with Abraham.
Through the Jews, God revealed Himself to mankind
delivering us from bondage.
Delivering us from evil.
That is a small thing?
Has GOD not kept his covenant?
I am in awe of your post.
You should read your own writing.
You already know.
You already have the answer.
“Socialism is the new golden calf.”
No it's not.
It is the same since Nimrod and Babylon.
The main source of funding for the American revolution were Jews.
A least one Jew died defending the Alamo.
Jews happen to be an urban people. (Largely because farming was forbidden to them in Europe.)
Urban people are overwhlmingly liberal.
Ah, but Ansel12 has discovered that Jewish Americans became more supportive of FDR than Italian Americans after FDR took a hard line with Hitler and Mussolini (perhaps some Italian Americans might have felt a little uncomfortable with the anti-Mussolini line). Ansel12 then uses that datapoint to argue that Jews are in fact way more liberal than other urbanites, despite a total lack of evidence to support that assertion.
Many Jews settled in liberal big cities, and they generally vote the way other people who live in liberal big cities vote. Jews in other areas -- the small town deep south for example -- vote quite differently.
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