Carbon Cap Tax & Scam Ping ~ (POGW)
Posted on 07/13/2009 7:07:18 AM PDT by Robert A. Cook, PE
Electric utility chief says separate charge for renewable power may need to be rolled into all users' bills.
By Marty Toohey
For the past decade, Austin's ambition to become the world's clean-energy capital has been best exemplified by one effort: GreenChoice, a program that sells electricity generated entirely from renewable sources such as wind.
Now the nationally renowned program is struggling to find buyers — the latest allotment is 99 percent unsold after seven months on the market — and Austin Energy is looking for ways to bring down the rising costs.
But those are short-term talks.
Austin Energy officials say that times have changed and that the nation's most successful (by volume of sales) green-energy program, which offers the renewable energy only to those who select it, might no longer be the best way to carry out the city's goals. It now costs almost three times more than the standard electricity rate.
"I think it's time to sit back and look at the philosophy behind GreenChoice," said Roger Duncan, the head of Austin Energy and the chief architect of GreenChoice.
"It was our intent to use it to stimulate the market for renewables, which it did, and then eventually phase it out," Duncan said. "It was never intended to go on forever."
Duncan said part of the solution might just be adding new wind, solar and other renewable-energy projects into the bills of all Austin Energy customers, which could increase rates for everyone. He said there are also numerous other policies being considered but declined to discuss them, saying only that they will be proposed publicly in the near future.
Whatever new policies Austin Energy brings forward, it will need them quickly.
If the latest GreenChoice offerings do not sell, their cost will eventually show up in the bills of all Austin Energy customers anyway, officials say. And the Austin City Council, which oversees Austin Energy, has resisted such measures.
For instance, when the city decided to buy power from a $250 million solar array to be built next year near Webberville, the council ordered Duncan to find ways to sell the solar energy as part of GreenChoice so only those users would bear the cost.
Before this year, the program had been humming along.
It was established in 2000, when Austin Energy decided to buy power coming from a wind farm in West Texas. Customers could choose to get their electricity entirely from the plant. About 3,500 homes and businesses signed up.
As Austin Energy bought wind from additional plants, it began offering successive GreenChoice "batches."
Some customers may have signed up out of a personal or corporate commitment to environmental responsibility.
But, Austin Energy spokesman Ed Clark said, many were attracted to the certainty that GreenChoice provided.
Although it generally cost a little more than standard electricity, a GreenChoice contract guaranteed a price would not change for a decade. Because of that promise, there were times when coal, oil and natural gas prices spiked and made them more expensive than GreenChoice.
"Customers got a 10-year fixed cost — that's why it sold out," Clark said. "It was designed to be a value proposition to customers, instead of just asking them to pay more to be environmentally friendly."
But lately, customers haven't been sold on that proposition.
While previous offerings took about half a year to sell out, the current one has attracted only 104 homes and five businesses — leaving about 99 percent of its power unpurchased, according to Austin Energy.
The reason is that GreenChoice prices have risen more than fivefold since the program started. GreenChoice now would add about $58 a month to the electricity bill of an average home.
Businesses, which currently buy 83 percent of GreenChoice power and which tend to have much larger monthly bills, face bigger hits to their bottom line.
Austin Energy officials say GreenChoice prices have risen mainly for reasons beyond their control.
Steel, concrete, copper and labor have all gotten more expensive, in turn making wind-farm construction more costly.
Demand for wind energy also drove up the cost, said Lori Bird, a senior analyst at the U.S. Department of Energy's National Renewable Energy Laboratory.
"Wind demand has been growing so fast that the supply hasn't been able to keep up," said Revis James, an energy technology expert with the California-based Electric Power Research Institute.
Austin cannot get around the increased construction costs, said Pat Sweeney, who directs the purchase and sale of power for Austin Energy.
But there is another problem that could soon be resolved, he said.
Texas doesn't have enough transmission lines to carry all the electricity generated in West Texas to the state's big cities. This in turn means Austin has to pay more to get its wind energy here.
But, Sweeney said, the state is in the process of approving a plan for utilities to build $6 billion in new transmission lines.
This change could allow Austin Energy to lower its GreenChoice price. But, Sweeney cautioned, any lowering of costs "won't be dramatic."
Others say the city could cut the cost more than it's letting on.
Mike Sloan, president of local renewable energy consulting firm Virtus Energy, said Austin Energy is dramatically overcharging for the cost of moving power from West Texas and might be tucking in unnecessary fees. For example, he says, the current GreenChoice batch is almost 75 percent more expensive than one the city offered in early 2008.
"Austin Energy's main business is selling power from coal and gas plants that they own," Sloan said. "GreenChoice competes with that; that's the basic problem."
Clark disputed that Austin Energy purposely overcharged or built in unnecessary fees.
"We charge customers exactly what it costs us to get that power," he said.
City officials say that despite the price spike, they will not abandon wind energy.
Partly, this is because they expect wind prices to stabilize while fossil-fuel prices rise dramatically. Partly, it's because the City Council has mandated that Austin Energy generate 30 percent of its electricity from renewable sources by 2020.
But even if Austin Energy manages to bring down the price of wind power, GreenChoice will face other challenges.
For instance, the city has to sell the power from the solar array near Webberville. Some businesses have objected to paying for the relatively expensive power.
The City Council's solution was to tell Austin Energy to explore offering the solar power under GreenChoice.
But, as Duncan noted to the City Council, the current batch of GreenChoice is already struggling because of its price. And power from the solar array will cost about twice as much.
Again.
Notice also the paranoid reaction of the "renewable energy" spokesman = He absolutely refuses to believe the market results, claims the evil coal and gas companies are controlling the city, and has a "religious zeal" about making sure everybody ELSE will do what HE wants.
Coming soon to an electric bill near you!
That’s Austin. Liberal hellhole.
Hey, I didn’t want to own GM, either.
TVA, the Tennessee Valley Authority is advertizing that people can buy “green power” for only $4 extra per month. Personally, I’m looking for the option to buy “brown power” with a $4 dollar discount each month.
Why on earth would somebody pay an extra $4 per month when their power will still come from the same vast resources - coal, nuclear, hydro, and natural gas - as everyone else? TVA generates about 0.001% of its power from wind.
It’s worse for conservatives like me that live on the outskirts of Travis County and make up the bulk of the population in the Austin ‘burbs, but always get strapped with the crappy ‘progressive’ programs the libs downtown dream up.
Yeah, can’t wait to see my July PEC bill with the “new rates” - especially since it’s been so hot these past few weeks. Hubby and I will have to find second jobs just to pay the electric bill I imagine.
It’s for the children...
I live in Georgetown/Williamson County, so (so far) I’m free from this crap and I only venture into Austin when necesssary. I suspect we’ll be “taken over” at some point by leftist Kalifornia expats who are leaving their state in droves after ruining it. Parasites are always looking for a fresh host.
First, wind energy and solar are not going to be cost efficient until they figure out how to store it.
Second, the costs are prohibitive.
Third, in our state a certain percetage of renewable energy is mandated so they can charge what they want to.
Fourth, What’s new about subsidizing, we’ve been subsidizing the environmental movement, the war on poverty, abortion, foreign aid...etc.
I wonder how many wind turbines would have to be built to generate as much electricity as one nuclear plant. I know that they don’t even know the life-span of wind generators but they are thinking around 10 years and yet I’ve heard that it takes 10 yrs to recoup the initial cost!
I don’t know what kind of maintenance they require but even if it is minimum, you have to go all over the countryside to check them out. I do know we have personally had “promises” of 4K from one company to 11K per year, per tower and they’ve already leased the BLM and state land surrounding our land, so we might as well let them, everyone also knows that that is the only place in this county where they would work.
Carbon Cap Tax & Scam Ping ~ (POGW)
Anyone who thinks that ethanol production is ridiculous should think that this if uber-ridiculous. The only way solar and wind energy work is to be subsidized because it is not cost effective.
Electric utility chief says separate charge for renewable power may need to be rolled into all users’ bills...
LOL!!! Why not just roll your grocery bill into your customer’s bills while you are at it.
Ethically, I see no difference.
Yeah, it sucks so bad that we’re being swamped with refugees failed U.S. states like Kalifornia, New York and Michigan. Not too many Virginians though. We usually shoot those snuffbox carryin’ asshats on the spot when we find ‘em.
Coming soon to a bill near you.
University towns just love the green revolution — until they have to pay for it.
Thanks for the info!
Isn’t it amazing that the liberal majority of citizens in this university town are balking at paying higher rates for power, even though it’s from ‘renewable sources.” and GREEEN.
I guess their mouths aren’t on speakin terms with their brains.
A typical large-scale nuclear generator is around 1200 Megawatts today. Many plants have one, many have two such generators. A couple have 3 generators of this size. To replace a single 1200 MW unit, you would need 600 2-MW wind turbines and a guaranteed steady source of wind. Factor in that wind isn't available at all places and in adequate quantity to get full output from wind turbines, you'd need more.
The wind industry, which sells these turbines, claims about a 30% availablity factor. So, using their figures, you'd need 600/0.3 or 2000 2-MW wind turbines to replace a single 1200 MW nuclear generating unit.
Reality paints a harsher picture than the industry's estimates. In reality, you get around 20-25% of the nameplate output collectively from wind resources at any given time. So, instead of 2000 generators, you'd need between 2400 and 3000 wind turbines. And they'd have to be dispersed enough so that even if the wind wasn't blowing at one area, wind turbines in another area would presumably have adequate wind.
That's a lot of pretty windmills peppering a lot of country views to replace one large nuclear (or coal) generator. Factor in the costs involved and nuclear suddenly appears to be quite cheap.
And all that expensive and frequent maintenance has to be done after a 200 ft hand-over-hand climb up (and down) a ladder and handholds.
Pulling up all of your eqpt, tools, and parts. Then letting them all back down again at the end of each shift.
Liberals are always good idea fairies...until the bill shows up.
It’ll be tough to clean out that closet after the divorce...
Then maybe all the other states wouldn’t mind if Texas excused itself from the union...
I live in Liberal Austin and absolutely live to confront the lefties over their flawed ideals and Utopian dreams.
Most are weak kneed pansies who when pressed into direct questioning about their socialistic policies engage in name calling or begin to bash GW Bush rather then defend their beliefs. They are pushovers.
I may be in a minority but rather than avoid these people, we need to confront them daily and expose them for what they really are...Facist control freaks.
Just smile, use some good old conservative ideals of liberty and individual responsibility and watch them scurry away like the rats they are.
You deserve combat pay.
It’s hard for me to “keep my cool” around these people.
When it was just me, or just me and my wife, that were going to be affected by their fascist vision of the world, it was easier to keep calm.
But now, I have children, and these fascists want to enslave them and impose their satanic worldly viewpoints on them.
(As an aside, I will kid you a bit about spelling it as “facist”. A facist would be someone like a racist, except their bigotry is based on facial features.)
Good Post!
Yeah, that 6-7% unemployment rate for Texas is driving people away in droves.
They did a pretty good job of holding their costs down. This usally escalates to 5-10 times the standard rate.
Austin ping.
These 2 statements are in the same article...good old socialists...they are a laugh a minute...
GreenChoice is a program that sells electricity generated entirely from renewable sources such as wind.
Now the nationally renowned program is struggling to find buyers — the latest allotment is 99 percent unsold after seven months on the market...
“Wind demand has been growing so fast that the supply hasn’t been able to keep up,” said Revis James, an energy technology expert...
Which is it - too much demand or not enough demand?
in a nutshell, that’s how “Electric Choice” worked out for homeowners in Pennsylvania. In the end none of the suppliers found it to be economically feasible to sign-up residential customers, and the only remaining choices were “green energy” companies that would sell you power at above-market rates (but you’d feel better about it). Eventually even they gave up. Big commercial users were able to sign up suppliers at discount rates and the lost revenue got shifted onto the rest of us.
You wouldn't have had to worry about this problem if the South didn't have to drag your generals such as J.B. Hood and Albert S. Johnson (whose claim to fame was getting himself killed in the critical Battle of Shiloh at the pinnacle moment of winning, thus turning victory into defeat) around our necks like millstones during the War Between the States--BECAUSE WE WOULD HAVE WON!
>> Why not just roll your grocery bill into your customer’s bills while you are at it. Ethically, I see no difference.
There is no difference. And PLEASE don’t repeat that comment within earshot of a liberal city council.
Your comments are right on point.
3,000 wind turbines would also require 240,000 ACRES using 80 acre spacing. Environmentalists?
Natural gas and nuclear are the ways to go.
You are accepting their stated, obfuscatory premise - that they actually want “abundant clean energy”.
Don’t answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him. (Prov 26:4)
Their goal is actually to reduce human use of energy and reduce or “wasteful” lifestyles. Argue from that true premise, and not from their stated premise. Then their promotions and objections actually make sense.
self ping
Not to mention all the new transmission wire towers required to connect the new fields to the grid.
I haven't even included the land for battery stations if they decided to store wind power.
This is one of Neil’s links - about 1/3 down his list of topics and links.
Also, the revered Virginian Stonewall Jackson managed to get himself killed by confederate troops.
And then there's George Pickett...
Yeah, you royal Virginians really had that war all wrapped up until those ragamuffin Texans messed it up for you. LOL!
Here’s the correct URL.
http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/local/2009/07/12/0712greenchoice.html
AM, could you please fix that up in the top of the thread?
Not only great generals: George Washington, Robert E. Lee, Jackson, JEB Stuart...Chesty Puller, George Patton (parents), et al BUT also great presidents: Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, Harrison, Tyler, Taylor, Wilson
As opposed to L-O-Louder: LBJ and Bush!
WTF??!! LOL!
LBJ and Bush!
Touch'e. LOL!
Thank you for that information. I knew some Freeper would know that.
And the location that they are proposing on our property takes 90 minutes to reach from town, so there’s 3 hrs tacked on to the preparation time.
Too gree to fail?
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