[Dilbert San Diego]

The liberals don’t care about cost per mile and all that technical stuff.

The liberals want to encourage use of mass transit. Mass transit works well in some cities, but not in others. But to the liberals, it doesn’t matter if light rail can pay for its operating expenses and building costs. They think that mass transit should be heavily subsidized because of all the usual enviro-extremist reasons. And they are passionate about saving a planet.

On some issues, you just can’t talk about facts and figures to the liberals. The emotion of saving planets and “investing” in our “infrastructure” makes reasoned discussion of issues impossible.

[domenad]

I have some experience in heavy rail, including controls and signalling. I do not understand why light rail is so much more expensive than a freeway, especially when you account for new technologies like concrete ties and in-field replacement and rail grinding. There must be something else at work here.

[tioga]

How successful is light rail? In 1980, before Portland began building light rail, 9.8 percent of the region's commuters took transit to work. Today, it is 7.6 percent.

and this translates to what? how many people rode mass transit then compared to how many now?

while visiting San Jose this spring I made use of the light rail....it was clean and convienent, yet limited....used buses as well....but a car still gets you exactly where you want to go in the shortest amount of time.

[phoenix07]

Phoenix has a light rail and it has been anything but cost effective. Nobody uses it.

[BaylorDad]

...some people want San Antonio to “keep up”...

Houston has a downtown ball park and light rail. Our self esteem is so high we can't feel the heat.

[demshateGod]

But what impact does light rail have on property values. In Denver, a lot of people want to live by the light rail. Not just for commuting to work, but because they just like it. I like the light rail but it’s not going to get people to abandon their cars so the advocates for it should just give that notion up.

[scory]

That light rail is expensive, inefficient and unpopular (based on lack of usage by the citizenry) is not the point. The point is that leftists have a religious mandate to SAVE THE PLANET!!!!!! So what they want to do is force as many people as possible out of all those terrible polluting autos and trucks and into sardine cans on rails. And to do this they do all they can to drive up auto and gasoline/diesel prices so that more and more people are unable to afford to use their vehicles. This also has the effect of forcing yet more into crowded urban areas thus increasing the likelihood they will become more dependant on government and more easily controlled because more concentrated.

[DoughtyOne]

If light rail can pay for itself, then fine.  If it can't, then don't build it.  That's my take on buses too.

If these methods of inner city transportation pay for themselves, fine.  Otherwise spend the funds on expanding our highways, and quit screwing around with people who need to drive to get where they want to go without having to quadruple the time it takes.  Taking gas tax funds to pay for mass transit, or even other state spending needs, is mis-allocation of funds IMO.

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[jagusafr]

Well here’s the problem with his “more buses, fewer stops” argument: I live about 3.5 miles from my office on De Zavala Road. I checked into riding the bus. It would take me 1 hour and 52 minutes and three bus changes through two major VIA terminals to get from my home to my office. What SA needs is better bus routes and more stops out on the northwest side.

Another problem with light rail here in SA is the confluence of geography and temperature: it’s 105 today and I’m just not gonna walk half a mile from a light rail station to my office in triple digit temps on a regular basis. I don’t think I’m alone in this view...

Colonel, USAFR

[jokyfo]

Get a dedicated railbed system. Light rail is nothing more than a glorified trolly, very slow.

[Jeff Chandler]

If the government elites were truly committed to reducing traffic congestion, they would conduct a study to determine which government jobs could be performed through telecommuting. Then outsource those jobs to India.

[DennisR]

So true. What would work is a high-speed monorail - above the ground, not an impediment to traffic, and possibly a better alternative to a car.

Voters around the Seattle area have a love affair with light rail. But when one votes for such a system, I believe they should also certify that they will use it!

[Trod Upon]

It is about transferring tax dollars to minority-owned contracting companies.

[fredhead]

Norfolk VA is building light rail. It will run from downtown east to the city limits of Norfolk and Virginia Beach. What use will it be? The majority of people live In Virginia Beach (and Chesapeake) and work on the Naval Base. (Norfolk is hoping Virignia Beach will extend this light rail to the oceanfront.) This light rail goes to neither of those places. The city council is just sinking my tax money into another hole, without even asking the taxpayers. They did the same years ago with Nauticus, the national maritime center located downtown. And again with MacArthur mall downtown. And with the refurbishment of Town Point Park downtown. And don’t forget about the USS Wisconsin (docked next to Nauticus), which like any other boat, will be a hole in the water into which they will pour money.

Meanwhile, our parks suck, our streets suck, every dollar seems to go downtown.

[Wuli]

“The average mile of light-rail line costs two to five times as much as an urban freeway lane-mile.”

Given the humongously smaller footprint, and what seems to me is a smaller amount cement, steel, etc. in a light-rail line, versus a highway, I can’t understand what it is economically that produces the huge cost difference.

If the cost difference is not in the rail “line” but with the rail line operations, that can be solved to be equal the cost structure of highways.

Build the “rail bed structure” and license private operators to run their own operations on it. Just like highways, the government part is in the “build it and they will come” job and private operators run services that they pay taxes/fees for the privilege of doing.

AMTRAK should be deconstructed on the same basis. With AMTRAK left maintaining the “rail bed” and its safe operation, charging fees for private outfits to run train “lines” on it. In short order, “improvements” in the rail bed and its safety could/would become govt-private joint projects, instead of simply taxpayer funded.

[Leg Olam]

Yep, light rail sucks.

[Buckeye McFrog]

some observations about light rail in Pittsburgh...

-Pittsburgh is perhaps uniquely suited to light rail, having had an active street car culture up into the 70’s, and a very compact downtown area where parking is very expensive, if it can be found at all.

-The system itself is actually rather nice. But it only serves the South Hills neighborhoods and Downtown, no other parts of town.

-This has led to complaints from people living to the east, where traffic congestion is the worst and where most of the non-white population is located (charges of racism, etc.)

-The biggest problem is that the cars run too infrequently, and when they do come they are so overstuffed with passengers that you can’t even get on (a direct result of the fact that Union contracts have the Port Authority spending most of their money on pensions and benes for people who sit at home, and they can’t afford to actually run the cars on the very expensive infrastructure they’ve built)

-They are currently expanding the system across the Allegheny River to drop passengers at Heinz Field and PNC Park. Instead of buidling a bridge or piggybacking on an existing bridge, they are digging a tunnel under the Allegheny River (despite advice from geologists that the riverbed is particularly unsuitable for this). It has become the most expensive tunnel on earth per linear foot!
Meanwhile you can cross the Allegheny by bridge on foot in about five minutes.

When you think how much more effective they could have been by building roads or even adding bus routes at a fraction of the cost, it does seem like a huge boondoggle.

[fogofbobegabay]

The reason light rail is so expensive is that it is not light at all. It may be “light” when compared to a freight line but it is super heavy when compared to an old-fashion tram line. I use trams quite a bit when I am in Europe. The cars are fairly small and light and the passengers cramped. The light rail system they built in Sacramento has cars that must be four times as heavy as a European tram. The Europeans are able to lay their tracks quite quickly, I have seen them at work. It took Sacramento years to build heavy overpasses, viaducts, etc.

[rocket002]

The first light rail line in Houston ran over $45MM per mile of track to construct. It was supposed to carry people from the stadium to downtown during the Superbowl, but was shut down early because of the crowds in the streets. It shuts down during any minor flooding. And it never has lived up to the promises in revenue or riders. Houston’s answer? Confiscate more private property and build more rail (this time at $73MM per mile). What a joke....

[B-Chan]

Works here in Dallas. The DART Board reported just yesterday that ridership on all the light rail lines is up, despite the cheapness of fuel. the lines are also sperking considerable tie-in real estate development around the stations — much of it high-value, high-revenue condo and retail development. The new Orange and Green Lines are eagerly anticipated.

And there’s talk of more heavy rail in the area as well. The intercity TRE line has been very successful:

Trinity Railway Express Ridership by Fiscal Year

199610-mile system opens December 30, 1996
1997175,969
1998455,515
1999587,519
2000688,486 (service extended to Tarrant County,
September 2000)
20011.32 million (service extended to Fort Worth,
completing TRE system, December 2001)
20022.13 million
20032.29 million
20042.16 million
20052.15 million
20062.40 million
20072.50 million

As the suburban era slowly dwindles, America will move back to a rural/urban population dynamic with heavy rail connecting the two and light rail providing transport within the cities.

[Cicero]

Just about every large city in the country used to have light rail. They were called trolley cars. And for whatever reason, they all vanished in favor of buses.

Just about every city in the country found them to be an expensive, inefficient nuisance, and the were gradually shut down and the tracks dug up.

I would suspect that one reason is that trolley rails are a nuisance to cars that have to drive over the tracks. Another is that if a car breaks down in the trolley lane, the trolley can’t go around it, but has to wait for a tow truck to get it out of the way. Another is that public transportation just isn’t cost effective when it’s run by governments and manned by unions.

[Reeses]

A light rail that might work is install a low profile power strip down the center of a commuter lane on a freeway. A 3 inch permanent magnet is retrofitted to the underside of normal cars that want to participate. Small computer controlled coils in the power strip along with the permanent magnet form a linear electric motor, the heavier motor parts fixed in the roadbed, with just enough horsepower to keep cars going at freeway speed. The car’s engine would assist for acceleration then idle to power the lights, radio, and air conditioner. For braking the polarity of the coils can be reversed, turning forward momentum back into electricity which can be sold to someone else. The advantages are: no heavy batteries or regenerative braking in the car, the car can travel at half the cost of normal gasoline power if it wants to, the strip can act as an automatic steering guide, cars can safely hook up into virtual trains increasing the capacity of the commuter lane. The car can drive off the power strip at any time and finish their trip conventionally. The power strips can be built in phases and maintained by private companies much like cell phone repeaters are.

[DallasMike]

Light rail has been a failure in Dallas as well.

[businessprofessor]

Light rail lacks economy of scale compared to automobile transportation. Compared to autos, relatively few use light rail even during peak commute times. The cost of personal transportation can be spread among many more individuals including the cost of the vehicles. If light rail costs are paid solely by users, no one will use it because of the extremely high cost. Even the operating costs are much too high to be paid just by the users.

In addition, light rail has very limited capacity. There are only some many trains that can be moved on the tracks especially since light rail often crosses roads. Even more limiting is the parking. Few will take public transportation to/from the light rail station. Most want to drive and park at the light rail station. If light rail becomes popular, parking limitations will drive away most new riders.

[jimt]

San Antonio should look at the “great success” of light rail in Houston.

Our toy train has been involved in over 83 wrecks. It’s not remotely competitive even with our boondoggle buses.

It’s an urban planner’s wet dream. Unfortunately, tax payers are the pivot men.

[Pylon]

I use the light rail San Diego Trolley regularly to get to downtown, Petco Park, Old Town here in San Diego. I have read a few times that it was one of the first new trolley systems in the country when it was first constructed in the 80’s and has been the most successful. They are planning a new extension now that will link you from central San Diego to the La Jolla/UTC/UCSD area. $5 for a day pass that is good on the trolley and bus is hard to beat as long as you know where you are going and it doesn’t involve many transfers.

[Richard Axtell]

Light Rail is kind of like and urban amusement part ride or a ride at EPCOT Center or the Monorail at Disneyland. They are fun for the “rail hobbyists” that like to ride them,... less fun for the taxpayers who have to pay for them. Think about it folks... rail only works in urban areas and regions that grew up around rail in the first place. You cannot cost effectively superimpose a good rail system on a non-rail town, like Phoenix or San Antonio. This is all just an expensive model train layout, scaled up. My advice... keep it to HO scale in your basement, and ride the bus.