Posted on 05/25/2009 4:24:19 AM PDT by yankeedame
The RAF bombing raids in Normandy following the D-Day invasion were 'close to a war crime', a leading British historian has claimed.
Antony Beevor has singled out Bomber Command's massive raids on the key city of Caen for particular criticism,...
...made ahead of next week's 65th anniversary of the D-Day landings.
Beevor was accused of trying to generate publicity for his latest book...
Caen became a crucible of ferocious fighting during the campaign due to its vital strategic position...
Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery hoped his troops would capture Caen on D-Day, June 6, 1944, but... German defenders repelled repeated attacks....
The RAF carried out two major bombing raids on Caen...
...British Lancaster and Halifax bombers missed virtually all the German positions on the edge of the city and instead reduced the centre to rubble...
The number of deaths from both raids is disputed, but may have totalled as many as 5,000.
Shell: The RAF bombed Caen twice, once on D-Day and again a
month later on July 7 - to open the way for a major assault the next day
Missed target: A huge formation of 467 British Lancaster and
Halifax (pictured) bombers missed virtually all the German
positions on the edge of the city and instead reduced the centre
Of Caen to rubble
In his book,"D-Day: The Battle for Normandy", Beevor argues that the bombing was a military blunder, as Caen's rubble-strewn ruins blocked the advance of Allied tanks and were relatively easy for the Germans to defend....
(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...
I do not believe the RAF’s intelligence was faulty.....Churchill was just hell-bent on taking all the oil in this town.
Same, Same the earlier bombing of the Abbey of Monte Cassino in Italy. If war were without life-costing mistakes there wouldn't be battles - darn humans.
I’m curious...would Napoleon be accused of war crimes today?
Would Robert E. Lee be accused of war crimes today?
Would George Washington be accused of war crimes today?
Would Custer be accused of war crimes today (if he was dead on the campaign field anyway)?
Would Sherman be accused of war crimes today?
Would Mark Antony be accused of war crimes today?
Would Stephen the Great be accused of war crimes today?
After a while...historians burn every bridge that they could have crossed...and then they tend to be anything but a historian.
Us or them. I choose US. Good show, PM Churchill...
We should have decimated every nook and cranny where the 9/11 terrorists hailed from following that day.
we havent fought a war to win since WWII and it shows.
to hell with surgical strikes, bring back dumb bomb, carpet bombing.
War itself is a War Crime.
War is not something to be played at and drawn out, whatever needs doing to end a conflict as soon as possible must be done...it’s better for the victor as well as the vanquished...get it over and be done with it so a fresh start can be made by all. This is what needed to be done by Israel in the ME but they have always been constrained by outside entities, if we had fought WW2 like Israel has had to fight its enemies we would still be squabbling with the Japanese Empire.
War crimes can only be committed by white Europeans or those of white European descent.
A: Yes.
But then, you’d have to realize that the accusations would be coming from an academic - in ivory towers.
Looks to me like just another whining limey poofter.
Cheers!
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night
only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.”
~George Orwell
“The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight,
nothing which is more important than his own personal comfort,
has no chance of being free, unless made so and kept so,
by the exertions of better men than himself.”
~John Stuart Mill
“If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed;
if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly;
then you may come to the moment when you will have to fight
when all the odds are against you - and there is only a precarious chance of survival.
But there may be even a worse case.
You may have to fight even when there is no hope of victory,
because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.”
~Winston Churchill
“War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things.
The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling
which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse.
The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight,
nothing which is more important than his own personal safety,
is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free
unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.”
~John Stuart Mill
War crimes for nations is the same as hate crime for individuals.
Neither exist except in the minds of Liberals and those of the victim mentality.
So true. Great thread.
Safely ensconced in a comfortable study, surrounded by intellectual and enlightening tomes, it’s a bit easier to view the actions taken so many years back through the rose colored glasses of contemporary progressivism. It’s wrong..but, it’s easier.
The fact is that the munitions of the day were not really targetable, and were indiscriminate in their destructive force. The decisions made in support of the D-Day invasion were taken in the context of the available intelligence, examined by professional military expertise, and executed with prayers for quick success.
To second guess all that is pure folly.
What we want today is victory without the mess. However, by placing unrealistic constraints on our military to prevent “war crimes” won’t work out that way. What will happen is that we will punish our soldiers, embolden our enemies, and practically guarantee defeat.
Warcrime
Warcrime
Fair is fair!
It’s awfully easy to look at today’s precision guided munitions which can almost be used to kill an individual person in the field, versus WW II’s more or less carpet bombing of a facility. There is no comparison, and anyone who makes that comparison is a historical illiterate and should be ignored, IMHO
Concur. The only way you really win a war is to exhaust the enemy and break his will. Who decides when a war is over? The vanquished—for he has to know that he has lost. Surgical strikes may hurt the enemy, but will also convince him that the opponent isn’t willing to do what is necessary to win. Ultimately, this just emboldens and strengthens the enemy.
There are very few, if any, examples of conflicts being settled before one side is broken.
War isn't tiddly winks, people actually die during a war, and that includes civilians and others you don't necessarily want to die.
I have read a couple of his book and they were really good.
Was Dresden any different than London? Maybe only the losers committ war crimes.
Since they’re all white and all western, then the answer is Yes.
Sounds like Beevor was Hitler’s kinda guy.
As Paine correctly points out it is the generous parent that that would have said, “If there must be trouble, let it be in my day that my child may have peace;” and this single reflection, well applied, is sufficient to awaken every man to duty.
War crimes on D-Day. Surely the day and death of thousands is horrific, but what of the millions who had already been killed at the hands of a brutal enemy? The complacency of the city would surely not save their lives at the hands of the enemy. They knew this, yet few would take up arms to defend themselves, neighbors, and children.
Who started the war? Who bombed London before Britain ever bombed a German or French or Italian city? The war crimes were all on the axis side because without them there would have been no war, no Dresden, no London, no Nagasaki or Hiroshima. Japan and Germany were the causes of WWII and they were the war criminals because of it.
Think of it this way: When a criminal commits a felony, any felony, in most states in the Union, and that felony results in a death, then that felon is charged with murder because if he/she hadn't committed the felony there would have been no death.
The same is true of war, no war, no war crimes, hence the country that started the war are the only real war criminals, period.
Great quotes my FRiend!
Thanks for posting them :-)
This episode illustrated the absurdity of the rules.
The rules are written by the victors or are self imposed.
You betcha. We were fighting to win and it showed. And let's not forget that inside Germany and Japan themsleves entire cities were carpet bombed into ashes.
If Churchill had p*ssed around like we moderns, you’d be writing your book in German, Mr. Beevor.
“War is Hell” — William Tecumseh Sherman
“War is Hell” — William Tecumseh Sherman
Those who promoted it had the backing of their citizenry.
Therefore, extreme measures to destroy both the German infrastructure, and the German *will* to fight, were necessary.
There *was* no genocide under Churchill; still less as state policy.
The same can be said for Japan: where was Britain's Unit 731, or the United States' Nanking? Even the top Nazi liaison (John Rabe) was so revolted by Nanking, that he wrote a personal letter to Hitler for clemeny in the name of humanity.
NO cheers.
OK, we take it back. We are officially handing England over to the Nazis.
I guess you didn't read my comment. The only people who didn't fight a "humane" war are the ones who started the damn thing. The US and the Allies fought as they had to. Mistakes? Yep, you could say they made mistakes.
I know Caen was a French town, but it was full of Germans and we had to go there. Once again, the ones responsible for the bombing of Caen were the Germans. The Germans, the Japanese and the Italians were the ones responsible for all the civilian deaths caused by both sides of the war.
The Japanese were the ones responsible for the millions of dead Japanese, the Islands of Okinawa, Iwo Jima and others, the towns of Nagasaki and Hiroshima destruction lies on their heads and no one elses. No Pearl Harbor, no Philippine invasion, would have meant no Nagasaki or Hiroshima.
Trying to spin it any other way is just BS.
Monty was way too cautious in his preparations as a rule, surprised he didn't think this one through.
More problematic would be the Soviet treatment of their own citizens once they *recaptured* territory.
Cheers!
It would be a toss up who was a worse commander, Monty or Mark Clark. Monty Botched almost every plan he thought up. Market Garden was a prime example of a failure to read intel.
DeGaulle was trying to talk to Stalin about drawing up thier own plans for post war Europe. DeGaulle was your typical French man, back stabbing two faced and looking out for number one.Why they were given thier own zone in Berlin shows why you shouldnt let politician dictate policy durning wartime.,
One could argue a blunder (hindsight is 20/20). But, a war crime, NEVER.
I am disappointed in Beevor, as he is actually a former Army officer and a damn good writer.
I thought he of all people wouldnt be so simplistic. Yes, Caen was blown to bits, but we dropped thousands of leaflets warning the French of the raids, and also through the French Resistance.
1—Yes they are.
2-Dresden’s history has become more myth than fact.
Monty’s achilles heel was his ego where he never admitted a plan worked, but worked less than 100% as all plans do. He would insist it was perfect, and that annoyed both British and US/Can commanders.
He was at fault over Arnhem certainly and questions have been asked over Antwerp.
Montgomery was neither a genius nor an incompetent fool. He was a good commander, but not a great one.
Alexander was the choice of many for NW Europe and the British/Canadian forces and perhaps he would have been a better choice.
Best British general of ww2?. Slim.
p.s nice to see a Yank who thinks Clark was a second rate commander. I have been saying that for years.
Goebbels asked the German people if they wanted "Total War". They responded "Ja!"
Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it.
Again, please note that we gave the populace in the city ample warning that a bombing offensive was coming.
“We should have decimated every nook and cranny where the 9/11 terrorists hailed from following that day”.
So true and I think the same way. Had it been me, there would have been plenty of parking lots in the ME.
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