U.S. Drops Research Into Fuel Cells for Cars

NY Times ^ | May 8, 2009 | MATTHEW L. WALD

[neverdem]

WASHINGTON — Cars powered by hydrogen fuel cells, once hailed by President George W. Bush as a pollution-free solution for reducing the nation’s dependence on foreign oil, will not be practical over the next 10 to 20 years, the energy secretary said Thursday, and the government will cut off funds for the vehicles’ development.

Developing those cells and coming up with a way to transport the hydrogen is a big challenge, Energy Secretary Steven Chu said in releasing energy-related details of the administration’s budget for the year beginning Oct. 1. Dr. Chu said the government preferred to focus on projects that would bear fruit more quickly.

The retreat from cars powered by fuel cells counters Mr. Bush’s prediction in 2003 that “the first car driven by a child born today could be powered by hydrogen, and pollution-free.” The Energy Department will continue to pay for research into stationary fuel cells, which Dr. Chu said could be used like batteries on the power grid and do not require compact storage of hydrogen.

The Obama administration will also establish eight “energy innovation hubs,” small centers for basic research that Dr. Chu referred to as “Bell Lablettes.” These will be financed for five years at a time to lure more scientists into the energy area.

“We’re very devoted to delivering solutions — not just science papers, but solutions — but it will require some basic science,” Dr. Chu, who won...

--snip--

He said he would probably reverse another Bush administration decision and restore funds for FutureGen, a program to build a power plant prototype. The plant would turn coal into gas, separate out the carbon dioxide — a major contributor to the greenhouse gases that cause global warming — and pump it underground. Then it would burn the hydrogen, which is nearly pollution-free...

[neverdem]

He said he would probably reverse another Bush administration decision and restore funds for FutureGen, a program to build a power plant prototype. The plant would turn coal into gas, separate out the carbon dioxide — a major contributor to the greenhouse gases that cause global warming — and pump it underground. Then it would burn the hydrogen, which is nearly pollution-free.

Besides taking every possible opportunity to undo decisions made by GWB's administration, why don't they repeal the Second Law of Thermodynamics?

[4rcane]

its more of a rebranding than an undo

[RFEngineer]

“Cars powered by hydrogen fuel cells, once hailed by President George W. Bush as a pollution-free solution for reducing the nation’s dependence on foreign oil, will not be practical over the next 10 to 20 years, the energy secretary said Thursday, and the government will cut off funds for the vehicles’ development.”

If one believes that electric cars are our future (I’m not one of those folks) then fuel-cell powered electric cars is probably the only way it can be done and end up with a vehicle that is recognizable in performance as compared with any of todays internal-combustion powered vehicles.

I suspect that in the end, it’s not how it’s powered, but the fact that folks want something larger than a golf-cart that is the problem.

[manc]

yet another issue which bozo and his ilk are undermining everything Bush did

It must really grate the left that Bush kept us safe and Iraq was successful. They might go on about how some want bozo to fail but the fact is the left wanted Bush to fail in protecting us and in Iraq

If one person thinks for one minute bozo is a friend of this country then I despair.

Soros has bought the presidency and used his puppet to lead his agenda while having his foot soldiers like move on and ACORN do their intimidation

Hitler and Stalin would be proud of how the left have manipulated the public with their propaganda and how they have took over.

[R_Kangel]

"...Mr. Bush’s prediction in 2003 that “the first car driven by a child born today could be powered by hydrogen..."

GEEEEZ!!.......Was Bush ever wrong on that!

The vehicles of the future will be powered completely by .... Barack Obama's ego!!

[manc]

I have 3 kids, a dog and a wife.
How the hell am I supposed to be able to afford a 20 grand car to save money on Gas(doesn’t make sense) but how do I get hem with luggage in there on a trip somewhere.

I cannot

Yesterday I saw an old couple from palm beach driving their brand new Jaguar convertible with an obama sticker

I guess they also live in a big house, bigger than they need, they have their A/C on very cold and never go cold while their grass is very nice green from all the watering.

I bet they have no idea the irony of their lifestyle and who they support

Course the left have never had much in the way with brains and instead do things what they have been told to do from the media or what they perceive as cool or chic

those who have guns, are religious, are rich or live in a mcmansion and many do in the north east who voted for this buffoon .
I just hope they get hit first with their taxes, heating and A/C bills along with gas for their big engined luxury car/boats private planes etc

[Cicero]

Well, I never thought fuel cells made any sense UNLESS they developed nuclear power plants to charge them up.

But I also don’t know if it makes sense to eliminate ALL research into fuel cells at once. How about just cutting back on it?

And how about those nuclear plants.

The problem of course, is not only that Obama wants to reverse everything Bush did, but he wants these efforts to fail. He wants to make us more dependent on imported oil, not less. Which isn’t too far from what the Democrat plan has been ever since Jimmuh Carter.

Chu, of course, is a total jackass, which is why Obama chose him to be energy Czar.

[dila813]

Bush funded this because he knew that an all electric car would be too small for our automakers to make money off of.

What this administration doesn’t understand is, the UAW makes the production of small cars in this country impossible.

If you want small cars you have to build them in another part of the country and where the UAW isn’t there.

Bush was being nice to them, trying to provide the UAW (his political enemies) with jobs. I don’t think the Democrats are going to be as nice.

[Nachum]

The list, ping

[DakotaRed]

Hydrogen fuel cell cars hold a great deal more potential than do embryonic stem cells. Yet, they will fund that research.

Electric cars have a limited range and in hilly areas, that drops drastically. Hybrids are a little better, but fossil fuels are still used.

This is pure BDS from the Obama cabal to the detriment of the nation.

[freeangel]

“The obama administration will develop ‘eight innovation energy hubs’”

Why do I get the “soylent green” feeling that these will exist to turn the elderly, frail and aborted babies into an alternative enery? It will be patriotic to give lives so that others may use their microwaves or drive to worship the “one”.

[Holicheese]

http://www.topgear.com/us/videos/more/james-tests-honda-clarity

Cool show and video

[Honorary Serb]

The REAL problem is that Zero has no serious interest in beating the muzzies!!!!

At this point, no one can predict what will be the most successful advanced, PRACTICAL renewal energy technologies. Putting all ones eggs in one basket—”plug-in hybrids” (for which current battery technology is not practical)—makes no sense. That is, it makes no sense to those of us who want 1. to get us independent of islamic oil in order to help CRUSH Muhammadan world domination, and 2. to make the US the leader in advanced energy technologies, thus helping to foster American jobs and a vibrant US economy based on manufacturing, NOT financial services.

Barack Hussein Obama is not on board of either one of these goals. More’s the pity!!!!

[truthguy]

Another incredibly stupid move by Obama Administration. Steven Chu is proving he isn't up to the job at Department of Energy. In fact he is proving himself to be a clown.

Yes it's known that hydrogen fuel cells aren't going to be feasible in immediate future. That's why this program was basic research and development. It was a relative small amount of money. And besides 10 years (low end) isn't that far away. I sill have a car from 1989 and that's 20 years.

If the Volt proves to be a success (and I believe it will) then Electrics are the future. The car can be developed and refined. The battery can be improved and made less expensive. But the source of electricity? It doesn't matter. It can be a gasoline ICE. It can be E85 or Diesel or Ethanol (I hope not) or any other. It doesn't matter So the cars can be developed independent of the Electric Generator. If Hydrogen Fuel Cell pans out then it will marry to to EREV concept without a hitch.

Again another move of stupidity from the Obama people.

[Venturer]

Why doesnt Dr. Chu realise that windmills and solar power,will be at least that long before they produce any energy that we can economically use.

[Old Flat Toad]

The reason for this came across FR a few hours ago-
US government to lease GM hydrogen cars for $84,000 a year.

I’m Html ignorant so it was posted somewhere around 9:00.

[RoadTest]

Fuel cells are the engines of the future, at least of a decent future. It has already appeared, though, that this administration has other ideas.

[Lets Roll NOW]

Looks like the hydrogen lobby failed to INVEST in the Obama campaign.

[what's up]

the left wanted Bush to fail in protecting us and in Iraq

The left saw that Bush was well on his way to becoming an American hero shortly after 9/11.

With a shock, they realized that this meant Repubs in power potentially for decades.

Therefore, they poured EVERYTHING they had into lies, deceit, propoganda, pure evil to fool the public into thinking Bush was something he was not. This tactic worked on both liberals AND conservatives.

They will get theirs, in time. These evil people (like Emmanuel) can't stand up under such lies for long. At some point, those closest to them will see that their duplicity is a way of life and everyone gets burned by it eventually. The hatred will eat its own.

[WHBates]

"Bush was being nice to them, trying to provide the UAW (his political enemies) with jobs. I don’t think the Democrats are going to be as nice."

What the heck are you talking about? They will just give them money with no expectation to produce anything.

[TheThinker]

Why do I get the “soylent green” feeling that these will exist to turn the elderly, frail and aborted babies into an alternative enery?

enviro-nazis hard at work

[Citizen Tom Paine]

As I understand it from a seminar a couple of years ago GM has a fuel cell car developed. The problem they had then was it cost10X too much and had a weight problems. But they had a working prototype and engineering models.

It seems as if this decision may gut that project but who knows.

[WHBates]

Frankly I've heard that this guy was sharp but he has made some various curious statements that seem to show that he's nothing but a lightweight when it comes to real energy science.

[WHBates]

Frankly I've heard that this guy was sharp but he has made some various curious statements that seem to show that he's nothing but a lightweight when it comes to real energy science.

Sorry the above should read:

Frankly I've heard that this guy was sharp but he has made some very curious statements that seem to show that he's nothing but a lightweight when it comes to real energy science.

[manc]

I’m counting on their arrogance to bring them down

The media have swooned over bozo since he came on the scene at the convention, it was well orchestrated by Soros I’ll give him that.

The media are being laughed at behind their backs and they are just too dumb to see it , same as when the white house have lied over matters like bowing to the king or not releasing the manifest for the airforce one flight.

There has to be a point when some in the media actually wake up and see that their messiah is not what they thought.

Right now even the decent journalist out there is too scared to find out about Kenya, his birth Odinga etc but for how long will they be like that?

[az_gila]

What this administration doesn’t understand is, the UAW makes the production of small cars in this country impossible.

If you want small cars you have to build them in another part of the country and where the UAW isn’t there

---

Like the present range of Fiats (err... Chryslers).

http://www.fiat.co.uk/Showroom/

This is their UK range... but I'm sure they make them with left side steering wheels...:^)

[expatpat]

Chu is totally screwed up about global warming, but at least he got this right.

[wolf78]

Developing those cells and coming up with a way to transport the hydrogen is a big challenge, Energy Secretary Steven Chu said in releasing energy-related details of the administration’s budget for the year beginning Oct. 1. Dr. Chu said the government preferred to focus on projects that would bear fruit more quickly.

Except for the fact that Honda is already selling limited numbers of their FCX Clarity fuel cell car and Mercedes will join in 2009/10 with their B-Class "BlueZero F-Cell" (B-Class currently not sold in the US) and ramp up production by 2015.

If the Mercedes can store 250 miles worth of hydrogen today, how is the storage issue a dealbreaker? The only problem is lack of infrastructure, which is an economic problem, not an engineering problem (If you have already built a natural gas distribution infrastructure for several billions, how should doing the same for hydrogen be impossible?).

[Brilliant]

It was the libs who wanted to spend the money on fuel cells to begin with. Now that it’s a failure, why should we expect the next liberal gimmick to do any better?

[upchuck]

Dr. Chu said the government preferred to focus on projects that would bear fruit more quickly.

Ya mean like Drill Here, Drill Now? Cool!!

[element92]

the electric (battery) car is coming,
or is already here, depending on details.

the fuel-cell-concept was foolish from
the beginning. why bother with an additional
electric-chemical conversion,
when we have batteries that can do the job.

millions of people would be happy with an electric car with
a range of 40-100 miles, the US is not the whole
\world. any gasoline not used anywhere in the
world is less money for the ragheads.

[smokingfrog]

Fuel cells are now being used to power buses. No reason it could not work with cars.

The state and federal governments have a pretty good deal now with all the tax money they get from gasoline. Why would they want to change that?

[Wonder Warthog]

"Steven Chu is proving he isn't up to the job at Department of Energy. In fact he is proving himself to be a clown."

Correct.

"Yes it's known that hydrogen fuel cells aren't going to be feasible in immediate future. That's why this program was basic research and development."

Hmmm--when I was having the oil changed in my Acura Integra, I picked up one of the car mags laying around, and it had a review of one of their writers who was test-driving a fuel-cell electric around California (I think it was a GM prototype). Hydrogen storage was compressed gas (10,000 psig). Maybe economic and/or infrastructure unfeasible, but certainly not limited by science.

[Honorary Serb]

I love it!!!! I did not know how far Honda (or anyone else) had gotten with hydrogen powered vehicles. That makes my post #13 even more spot-on!

I imagine the Honda Clarity is now prohibitively expensive (do you know?), but that is probably a matter of engineering and manufacturing. The real issue is developing means of generating hydrogen from non-petroleum sources. Several “synthetic biology” labs and companies are working on that very hard, and there are other non-biological approaches as well.

This seems to me to be a better approach than “plug-in hybrids”, “using the grid”. and pushing battery technology to the limits. But that seems to be the preferred approach of most of the enviro-lobby and liberal establishment, coupled with coercive “cap and trade” and “carbon tax” legislation.

The REAL issue is that Obama is a muslim-kisser, and also wants to use the energy/environmental issue to destroy our sovereignty in favor of an international regime.

[theymakemesick]

The plant would turn coal into gas, separate out the carbon dioxide — a major contributor to the greenhouse gases that cause global warming — and pump it underground. Then it would burn the hydrogen, which is nearly pollution-free...

I'm no chemist but isn't CO2 created by the combustion of a hydrocarbon in the presence of oxygen?

[truthguy]

Yes you are correct and that's why we should continue the R&D. There are cars running on this technology but it's fantastically expensive. There is NO infrastructure for H2. There are safety considerations. But most importantly it that it takes more energy to get the Hydrogen than what you get out of it.

So the only way to get Hydrogen is to have a lot of nuclear Power plants to break down H2O. Well we don't have the Nuclear Power Plants.

[neverdem]

Yes you are correct and that's why we should continue the R&D. There are cars running on this technology but it's fantastically expensive. There is NO infrastructure for H2. There are safety considerations. But most importantly it that it takes more energy to get the Hydrogen than what you get out of it.

So the only way to get Hydrogen is to have a lot of nuclear Power plants to break down H2O. Well we don't have the Nuclear Power Plants.

Small steps toward big energy gains

There's more than one way to skin a cat. They found new catalysts for the electrolysis of water.

[dila813]

They look like death traps,

UAW cost to much to make these cars.

DOA

[Wonder Warthog]

"So the only way to get Hydrogen is to have a lot of nuclear Power plants to break down H2O. Well we don't have the Nuclear Power Plants."

Actually, solar works quite nicely. Better than nuclear, actually, because the output of solar cells is DC, and can be coupled directly to an electrolysis process. And with the huge drops in the cost of 14% efficient solar cells ($0.30/watt to manufacture--Nanosolar) solar is becoming more feasible all the time.

[FreedomPoster]

The idea that any gov’t, and especially this gov’t, can pick energy winners and losers, is frightening.

Get used to a future with vastly increased energy costs and reduced economic output.

[Holicheese]

From what I understand, they are currently expensive but not THAT expensive. They are leasing some of the vehicles in CA to a select few for testing. I hear that the lease is about $400-$500 per month.
As you said, the issue is hydrogen production. plugging your car in at night is just a silly proposition. This is something that Top Gear hosts always mention is that teh electricity os coming from somewhere and its being produced by coal fired plants.
Check out the videos of them testing the Tesla. They claim it gets over 200 miles on a charge. when they drove it, really drove it, it got about 50 miles and then required a 16 hour charge.

[Honorary Serb]

The other issue is that “the grid” is already overburdened with demand in many areas of the US with no excess capacity to meet demand on the hot days of summer. It will get WORSE in the foreseeable future!

The overt energy stupidity of the clinton/Bush era was ethanol—making fuel compete with food. The overt energy stupidity of the Obama era is adding transportation to the needs to be supplied by the electricity “grid”.

The big hidden energy stupidity was and is failure to undertake a private/public Manhattan Project to develop the technologies needed to independence from foreign energy sources, as part of a comprehensive program to crush islamic imperialism!!!! The previous administration (including some liberal advisors who are muslim shills) had the chance to do that BEFORE 9/11, but didn’t do it even after 9/11. Now that we have all that government spending on other things, it’s not likely to happen any time soon.

[nufsed]

very fuelish

[Moonman62]

This isn't such a bad thing. W was extremely ignorant and disinterested in technology and economics. (Compare to his excitement about illegal aliens and AIDS in Africa).

His initiatives in those areas were mainly to score some cheap political points in the short term.

[dfwgator]

Exactly, if this is such a great idea, let the private sector (what’s left of it), invest in it. The problem with government funding is that the costs wind up being socialized, while the gains are privatized.

[mdmathis6]

“They will get theirs, in time. These evil people (like Emmanuel) can’t stand up under such lies for long. At some point, those closest to them will see that their duplicity is a way of life and everyone gets burned by it eventually. The hatred will eat its own.”

Unfortunately, while I agree with you, this type of thing usually ends up in civil wars or even world wars before the evil is dethroned with a breathtaking amount of collateral damage and loss of life!

[truthguy]

More Rube Goldberg. I keep seeing posts from those who read some of the Science Magazines with stories about projects that are in the far off future. But are any of these wonder projects actually working? Popular Mechanics use to do stories way back when about having flying cars in the future. Did it ever happen?

Ok so that is an extreme example. But there are all kinds of stories about wonder energy sources and such. If it were really possible, then industries would adapt these wonder technologies. They don't because they aren't feasible (economical). To assume that they are economical but that industry just is stubborn is to call these people stupid.

Look solar energy is okay if you live in a sunny area of the country and you plan to stay in your home for 15 or more years. Then it can pay off.

[Wonder Warthog]

"Look solar energy is okay if you live in a sunny area of the country and you plan to stay in your home for 15 or more years. Then it can pay off."

The subject is energy for cars, specifically generating hydrogen. The Nanosolar cells are not "far future". They're being produced "right now". Their first full-scale production facility is running full time, and is "sold out" for the next two or three years. They are currently building a second production plant. The first plant is dedicated to "small utility" size cells, the second is to be focussed on "home scale" size cells. And their expection is that they can drop the cost even lower.

[truthguy]

How much hydrogen is currently being produced by this technology?
Is this technology dependent on government subsidies?
Where are the plants located?
Can someone invest in this technology? Is so how? Are there major investors?

[<1/1,000,000th%]

The President couldn’t waste the money fast enough this way?