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Who should MDs let die in a pandemic? Report offers answers
AP ^ | 05/04/08 | Lindsey Tanner

Posted on 04/26/2009 12:14:37 AM PDT by TornadoAlley3

CHICAGO – Doctors know some patients needing lifesaving care won't get it in a flu pandemic or other disaster. The gut-wrenching dilemma will be deciding who to let die. Now, an influential group of physicians has drafted a grimly specific list of recommendations for which patients wouldn't be treated. They include the very elderly, seriously hurt trauma victims, severely burned patients and those with severe dementia.

The suggested list was compiled by a task force whose members come from prestigious universities, medical groups, the military and government agencies. They include the Department of Homeland Security, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the Department of Health and Human Services.

The proposed guidelines are designed to be a blueprint for hospitals “so that everybody will be thinking in the same way” when pandemic flu or another widespread health care disaster hits, said Dr. Asha Devereaux. She is a critical care specialist in San Diego and lead writer of the task force report.

(Excerpt) Read more at rds.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: bho44; bhocdc; bhodhs; blackhitler; deathpanels; die; epidemic; eugenics; genocide; holocaust; mds; moralabsolutes; nazism; obamacare; pandemic; psychiatry; swineflu; t4; triage; vitamind
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wonder if smokers are on the list? :)
1 posted on 04/26/2009 12:14:37 AM PDT by TornadoAlley3
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To prepare, hospitals should designate a triage team with the Godlike task of deciding who will and who won’t get lifesaving care, the task force wrote. Those out of luck are the people at high risk of death and a slim chance of long-term survival. But the recommendations get much more specific, and include:

People older than 85.

Those with severe trauma, which could include critical injuries from car crashes and shootings.

Severely burned patients older than 60.

Those with severe mental impairment, which could include advanced Alzheimer’s disease.

Those with a severe chronic disease, such as advanced heart failure, lung disease or poorly controlled diabetes.


2 posted on 04/26/2009 12:15:36 AM PDT by TornadoAlley3 (Obama is everything Oklahoma is not.)
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To: TornadoAlley3

Ugly people.


3 posted on 04/26/2009 12:18:21 AM PDT by SIDENET ("You knew the job was dangerous when you took it, Fred.")
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To: TornadoAlley3
"those with severe dementia"

Obama voters.

4 posted on 04/26/2009 12:20:12 AM PDT by ChicagahAl (Don't blame me. I voted for Sarah.)
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To: TornadoAlley3
So basically all Dems.
5 posted on 04/26/2009 12:21:14 AM PDT by MaxMax (America's population is 304-Million. Obama must punish America for the other 4.7 Billion)
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To: TornadoAlley3

4 L8er


6 posted on 04/26/2009 12:22:38 AM PDT by Blogger (It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins. - Ben Franklin)
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To: TornadoAlley3
I think I will refrain from posting my feelings about this article.

All I'm going to say is that if these people think there ivory tower will protect them from the "flu" they may be right. However, there is plenty else they should be worried about.
7 posted on 04/26/2009 12:22:43 AM PDT by randomhero97 ("First you want to kill me, now you want to kiss me. Blow!" - Ash)
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To: ChicagahAl
Obama voters.

Some of them are dead already, especially in Illinois.

8 posted on 04/26/2009 12:22:48 AM PDT by SIDENET ("You knew the job was dangerous when you took it, Fred.")
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To: TornadoAlley3

This will be an everyday occurrence under socialized medicine.


9 posted on 04/26/2009 12:23:56 AM PDT by rdl6989
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To: SIDENET

Triaging patients in this sort of situation is to ensure that those likeliest to survive get treated. The problem with burn patients is that their treatment makes heavy use of medical resources, and they are unlikely to survive in any case if severely burned.

Triage techniques of this sort are used by the military and in any disaster situation. It isn’t pretty, but plans need to be made.


10 posted on 04/26/2009 12:24:38 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla ("men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." -- Edmund Burke)
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To: SIDENET

Take away the adjectives and your probably closer to the truth:

“Those with trauma, ... burned patients ... mental impairment, ... Alzheimer’s disease... disease, such as advanced heart failure, lung disease or ... diabetes.”


11 posted on 04/26/2009 12:25:17 AM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: TornadoAlley3

“Did you vote for Obama??” is their only question


12 posted on 04/26/2009 12:25:37 AM PDT by GeronL (TYRANNY SENTINEL. http://tyrannysentinel.blogspot.com LIBERTY FICTION at libertyfic.proboards.com)
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To: TornadoAlley3

Politicians, Illegal Immigrants, Prisoners, and Federal Employees not directly employed by a defense agency or FBI/CIA/BP. In that order.


13 posted on 04/26/2009 12:25:40 AM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla

>Triage techniques of this sort are used by the military and in any disaster situation. It isn’t pretty, but plans need to be made.

This is very true.


14 posted on 04/26/2009 12:27:29 AM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: TornadoAlley3

Whatever happened to saving lives—as many as possible? This reminds me of the “Values Clarification” stuff that has been in schol; i.e. if you have to throw someone over from a lifeboat, who would you toss and why?


15 posted on 04/26/2009 12:31:20 AM PDT by bushwon (Wonder if our founding fathers would even recognize the USA?!)
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To: TornadoAlley3
..... triage society for those that will help sustain the country...

So I guess democrats, liberals and all the nipple people are S.O.L.

16 posted on 04/26/2009 12:33:59 AM PDT by erman (Outside of a dog, a book is man's best companion. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.)
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To: All

TRIAGE

Quote - Snippet:

http://dictionary.reference.com/dic?q=triage&search=search

–noun
1. the process of sorting victims, as of a battle or disaster, to determine medical priority in order to increase the number of survivors.
2. the determination of priorities for action in an emergency.
–adjective
3. of, pertaining to, or performing the task of triage: a triage officer.
–verb (used with object)
4. to act on or in by triage: to triage a crisis.
Origin:
1925–30; < F: sorting, equiv. to tri(er) to sort (see try ) + -age -age


17 posted on 04/26/2009 12:33:59 AM PDT by Cindy
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To: randomhero97

Ditto to what you didn’t say.


18 posted on 04/26/2009 12:34:24 AM PDT by Gator113 (I'm a PROUD RIGHT WING EXTREMIST.... Obama has failed, IMPEACH Obama NOW....)
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To: TornadoAlley3
Basic Rule of Life: Always, always be highly suspicious of a self appointed "task force whose members come from prestigious universities, medical groups, the military and government agencies."

Obama, Pelosi, and the rest of the democrats are drooling and can't wait to start murdering the frail, the infirm, and the defenseless.


19 posted on 04/26/2009 12:41:24 AM PDT by FormerACLUmember (Chains you can believe in.)
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To: TornadoAlley3

Buy some Obama campaign buttons off of eBay to make sure you get “cut” privileges in the triage line.


20 posted on 04/26/2009 12:41:50 AM PDT by IDRATHERNOT
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To: bushwon

Yep, this really pisses me off. I’ve had quite a bit of “drink” tonight and my gf of four years left me. Still, though, I don’t like the thought of playing god with people’s lives.


21 posted on 04/26/2009 12:43:13 AM PDT by randomhero97 ("First you want to kill me, now you want to kiss me. Blow!" - Ash)
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Comment #22 Removed by Moderator

To: FormerACLUmember

Don’t worry there’s still plenty of “sheepdogs” around.


23 posted on 04/26/2009 12:44:32 AM PDT by randomhero97 ("First you want to kill me, now you want to kiss me. Blow!" - Ash)
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To: TornadoAlley3

Fat kids, skinny kids, kids who climb on rocks. Tough kids, sissy kids, even kids with chicken pox.


24 posted on 04/26/2009 12:45:00 AM PDT by denydenydeny ("I'm sure this goes against everything you've been taught, but right and wrong do exist"-Dr House)
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To: TornadoAlley3

Is this the DHS memo again in a new guise?


25 posted on 04/26/2009 12:46:42 AM PDT by TigersEye (Cloward-Piven Strategy)
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To: randomhero97; bushwon
Whatever happened to saving lives—as many as possible?

Still, though, I don’t like the thought of playing god with people’s lives.

That is why they make the list.

In a situation such as a pandemic the need for medical care increases maybe in a geometric progression but the medical care resources can not. Some medical professionals will succumb to the disease and so the available medical care will actually decrease.

The list described will provide guidance to medical decision makers in a very difficult position. Someone will have to decide who will receive life saving care when there is not enough to go around.

This list will do more than decide who gets medical care it will also provide legal cover for those in the unenviable position of making those decisions. We all know that after the crisis is over the trial lawyers will be chumming the waters for clients disgruntled that some relative did not receive care.

This list will hopefully provide necessary cover for these people who will have to make decisions under very stressful conditions.

26 posted on 04/26/2009 1:24:48 AM PDT by Pontiac (Your message here.)
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To: TornadoAlley3

How time and value have changed.

Just about a century ago, the captain of the Titanic had to make difficult decisions too. Amazingly, the weak and the most vulnerable weren’t left on board to perish. Was the captain wrong? Would he make the same decision today? Just wondering. Afterall, we still call him a hero.


27 posted on 04/26/2009 1:36:34 AM PDT by m4629
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla

So my mother is dead. (older, disabled)

My son is dead. (diabetic)

My daughter is dead. (heart valve condition)

And I’m supposed to be OK with this?

Sorry, but I will fight to my last breath before I’ll surrender our most vulnerable to the government’s gentle ministrations.

We are NOT animals. We do NOT cull human beings. We fight for everyone, *especially* our weakest. Otherwise we’re no better than dogs.

Be a human being. Use your G-d given compassion.


28 posted on 04/26/2009 1:43:41 AM PDT by Marie ("When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.")
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To: TornadoAlley3

First standard medicine needs to come up with an effective flu treatment, and then they can have the hubris to have this discussion. Right now, once you get sick with the flu it’s up to God, not your doctor, whether you survive.

Those of us who take 2000 IU of vitamin D daily feel somewhat protected from the flu. God helps those who help themselves.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/51913.php


29 posted on 04/26/2009 1:46:11 AM PDT by devere
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To: OneWingedShark

I have NEVER seen a triage situation where they *automatically* denied care to disabled and elderly people.


30 posted on 04/26/2009 1:46:31 AM PDT by Marie ("When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.")
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
"Triaging patients in this sort of situation is to ensure that those likeliest to survive get treated."

If they are most likely to survive, why waste scarce resources on them?

Those eliminated from scarce resources: Those most likely to survive; those mostly likely to die.

yitbos

31 posted on 04/26/2009 1:49:22 AM PDT by bruinbirdman ("Those who control language control minds.")
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To: Pontiac
Triage is NOT supposed to be used to selectively cull the population! It's supposed to be used to help the most people survive, regardless of *who* those people are.

In a triage situation where one has to choose between a normal adult with a 10% chance and a disabled person with a 70% chance of surviving that particular crisis you choose the disabled person. You don't assign a value to each person, as a *person*, then decide if you're going to treat them or not.

That is *eugenics*, not triage!

32 posted on 04/26/2009 1:53:07 AM PDT by Marie ("When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.")
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To: devere

What brand of Vitamin D supplement do you take?


33 posted on 04/26/2009 1:57:17 AM PDT by randomhero97 ("First you want to kill me, now you want to kiss me. Blow!" - Ash)
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To: m4629
BINGO. Our compassion is what separates us from the animals.

Honestly, I think that this is the socialist government's reaction to their own broken system. They cripple *everything* about our economy then decide to make the "hard decisions" (killing everyone but THEM) so that we can afford their evil version of "utopia".

34 posted on 04/26/2009 1:57:18 AM PDT by Marie ("When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.")
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To: Marie

Try acting rationally. As it happens I am older (66), disabled, diabetic, and am in 3rd stage Congestive Heart Failure and A-Fib. In the circumstances being considered I would be less likely to be treated than any of your folks. I definitely want to go on living, but if I found that a Doctor had to let a healthy young person die and treated me because of some policy of fairness, I would feel ashamed.


35 posted on 04/26/2009 1:58:46 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla ("men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." -- Edmund Burke)
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To: TornadoAlley3
I dont know who to save but I notce Al Gore looks kind of Piggy...Does he have the flue?


36 posted on 04/26/2009 2:00:23 AM PDT by woofie
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To: m4629
Just about a century ago, the captain of the Titanic had to make difficult decisions too. Amazingly, the weak and the most vulnerable weren’t left on board to perish.

Those who had the most to contribute to society's future were saved-- i.e. children, their mothers, and other women who might bear children in the future. Weak, vulnerable, elderly men were left to go down with the ship.

It's also not directly comparable because what happened to the Titanic did not affect societal integrity as a whole. However, if doctors across the country chose to let healthy young men and women die in a pandemic so they could save the nursing home patients, retarded children, elderly multi-drug dependent cardiac cripples, and lunatics, who would rebuild civilization and look after all the others?

It sounds cruel and callous to let such helpless people die, but it is morally right and necessary in the case of a dire emergency.

-ccm

37 posted on 04/26/2009 2:01:28 AM PDT by ccmay (Too much Law; not enough Order.)
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To: bruinbirdman
If they are most likely to survive, why waste scarce resources on them?

I was of course referring to those most likely to survive, IF TREATED.

38 posted on 04/26/2009 2:01:34 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla ("men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." -- Edmund Burke)
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To: bushwon
Whatever happened to saving lives—as many as possible?

Duh. That's exactly what this report clarifies - how to direct resources to maximize saving lives. It lists those types of patients most likely to die in any case and most likely to need disproportionate amounts of scarce medical resources during a mass medical emergency.
39 posted on 04/26/2009 2:06:14 AM PDT by Cheburashka (Lesson #1 from Battlestar Galactica: Never turn your back on your toaster.)
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
OK. Come on over to my house. Meet my son. He's 15 years old. Got an IQ of 145. He loves animals, has a great sense of humor and wants to be a volunteer firefighter. He can shoot, build traps from scratch and is currently nursing a tomato plant. He loves G-d, passionately argues politics with his grandfather and is very much looking forward to being a husband and father. He's used his humor to overcome more hell than most people will ever know. His motto is, "Where there's breath, there's hope." He's counseled a grown woman out of suicide with that humor and compassion.

You tell him that he's "life not fit for life" because G-d saw fit to "tweak" his immune system.

If people *choose* to give their lives to save another, that's fine. But it's IMMORAL to allow someone to die just because they're weak or disabled.

Sorry that I can't be "rational" about my only son being put on a eugenics culling list.

(My daughter might make it. Her problem is correctable with surgery. How *grateful* I should be that "they" might give her a chance to continue breathing. /s)

And YES, I believed that life is precious and worth fighting for *before* my son was diagnosed. "Compassionate" Conservatives, my ass!

40 posted on 04/26/2009 2:09:54 AM PDT by Marie ("When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.")
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To: Marie

I am sorry that you have this position, since modified versions of this triage process are used every day in every ER in the world. In these non-emergency times those in the greatest and most immediate need of medical attention go to the head of the line. In the case of an emergency involving a great shortage of medical resources, the triage procedure always has and always will operate the way discussed in this article. Those who do not like it are free to start their own hospital.


41 posted on 04/26/2009 2:18:25 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla ("men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." -- Edmund Burke)
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To: ccmay
However, if doctors across the country chose to let healthy young men and women die in a pandemic so they could save the nursing home patients, retarded children, elderly multi-drug dependent cardiac cripples, and lunatics, who would rebuild civilization and look after all the others?

If we can coldly allow the people who raised us and who taught us G-d and morals, the innocents with Down's Syndrome, children who have diabetes, and all the other vulnerable people among us to die without even *trying* to save them, then we're not worth rebuilding.

This "Logical" and "Rational" way of thinking gave us Nazi Germany, Planned Parenthood and Professor Singer. "Life not Worthy of Life" they called it. These same people can just as easily decide that people of a certain political persuasion have a mental illness (where have we heard that recently?) and also need to be culled.

Hitler began his killing spree with disabled *children* for the love of G-d! Whether it's by the ovens or by simple neglect, the crime against humanity is the same.

The difference between a conservative and a liberal is that we VALUE life - ALL LIFE. We kill the murderer because he *took* a life and that is the only crime that has the punishment. We champion the unborn, the baby with Down's Syndrome, the coma patient. We fight the killing of our elderly. We take great care when it comes to "pulling the plug" or donating organs because we hold human life as sacred and precious.

When we become disheartened and even consider a situation where we can't champion *all* life, we become G-dless liberals and we've lost ALL faith.

42 posted on 04/26/2009 2:26:35 AM PDT by Marie ("When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.")
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To: Quix

ping!


43 posted on 04/26/2009 2:27:27 AM PDT by Marie ("When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.")
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To: randomhero97

I take a Vitamin Shoppe 2000 IU softgel. It is tiny, so anyone of any age can swallow it.


44 posted on 04/26/2009 2:45:03 AM PDT by devere
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To: Marie

So you’re a doctor, and you have 3 doses of Tamiflu left in your medicine cabinet, and the following 4 patients:

- A comatose 87-year-old with multi-organ failure, who in all likelihood will die within the next week no matter what you do
-A previously healthy 23-year-old mother of 3 small children
-A previously healthy 35-year-old fireman and father of two
-A previously healthy 9-year-old boy.

Who gets the Tamiflu? If you choose the obvious answer, congratulations, you just performed an act of triage, you Godless liberal.

If you’d give the medicine to the 87-year-old, I’d like for you to explain your reasoning, and I’d like for you not to be in charge of anything more complicated than a hot dog cart during a real pandemic.


45 posted on 04/26/2009 2:47:29 AM PDT by ccmay (Too much Law; not enough Order.)
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
So, according to you, Sarah Palin's Down's Syndrome baby is "Life not worthy of life".

Guess she should've aborted him after all. Saved everyone the trouble.

We are no longer human in America.

Nine months of pregnancy - six of those months on bedrest. Quit college. Quit my job. Fifteen years of dedication. Teaching, loving, arguing with doctors... Five years of sleepless nights monitoring blood sugar. Watching him grow into a moral and beautiful young man. Watching a soul develop.

All for nothing.

Why don't you just come on over and put a bullet in his head if he's worth so little to you? But I'm sure he's not the only one... could get messy. I know! We'll build OVENS to dispose of the bodies! Much cleaner...

Sure, he's already saved one healthy, productive life, but how much more good could he *really* do? How much could he actually contribute to the State? After all, his immune system isn't quite perfect. He does have trouble keeping his blood sugars "just so". He still has to finish high school and go to college before he really has a Value as a Citizen. And he does burn up about $400 a month in medical expenses... and that Universal Health Care is a bit pricey. Perhaps we should look at the bottom line a little closer -

- instead of looking at the gift he offers humanity by just being HIM.

46 posted on 04/26/2009 3:02:33 AM PDT by Marie (I'd die for Sara Palin's Down's Syndrome baby.)
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To: ccmay
That is NOT what they're saying! They're not saying, "if you're down to X you do Y". They're saying, "In case of disease, don't worry about anyone with a disability, diabetes or the elderly."

Don't you see? They're taking it to a whole new level. If there's a pandemic, automatically stop treating X.

This is NOT OK. Why can't you people see that we're not dealing with rational, humane people? They're saying, if there is and emergency AND if you have a "normal adult" with a 20% chance of survival and a child with Down's Syndrome with a 75% if survival, you are to treat the "normal" person. Both may die, but they don't care.

They don't want the Down's Syndrome child to live.

In normal triage situations, the Down's child would get the treatment, because he wouldn't be devalued as a human being. Triage just looks at the odds of surviving a certain situation, not the person surviving it. Triage doesn't give a crap is the person who survives is good for the gene pool, or the state. It only cares who will survive the crisis in question.

This mandate changes all that. Now doctors are supposed to look at the value of the human being.

This is a SIN.

47 posted on 04/26/2009 3:14:25 AM PDT by Marie (I'd die for Sara Palin's Down's Syndrome baby.)
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To: randomhero97

I am sorry your gf left you. That hurts.


48 posted on 04/26/2009 3:24:01 AM PDT by cajungirl (no)
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To: Marie

In big and small ways, rationing is a form of triage and with the new health care, there will be a govt bureau encharged with deciding what treatments are given, which are not. A form of everyday triage.

I do think “ethicists” are people who love to talk about who gets “culled” and appointed themselves to do so.

It sickens me {mostly because I will be culled right off the bat}


49 posted on 04/26/2009 3:27:08 AM PDT by cajungirl (no)
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Hey. This is the Son of Marie. My mom wanted me to read this thread and y'all need to start thinking like Captain Kirk in the Kobayashi Maru scenario. If you can't win you need to cheat. Don't accept defeat! :-) Where there's breath, there's hope.

Now stop upsetting my mom! She thinks I'm dying ten times a day! lol!

50 posted on 04/26/2009 3:30:01 AM PDT by Marie (I'd die for Sara Palin's Down's Syndrome baby.)
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