Posted on 04/17/2009 10:58:26 AM PDT by Last Dakotan
MILWAUKEE -- The Milwaukee Police Department found that there is a serious problem with its guns.
Officer Vidal Colon was injured over the weekend in a shootout, in which his gun jammed.
The police chief has known about the problem for a year, but he is now taking immediate action following Saturday’s shooting.
The chief sent a memo to the entire police department about the weapon problem.
On Saturday, Colon responded to a report of a man armed with a gun near 36th and Scott streets.
Colon fired his gun 13 times, and the suspect, Louis Domenech, shot back six times, refusing to drop his weapon, said police.
Both men were hit, and police have been investigating the shootout. They learned that one bullet casing had stovepiped, or jammed, in the officer’s weapon.
(Excerpt) Read more at wisn.com ...
Sounds like the criminal is the better shooter here!
The guy than runs the local range says the cops that come in there to qualify usually have mold growing inside of their weapons.
I keep mine clean, including my Glocks, and they don’t jam.
Period.
Doesn’t limp-wristing a Glock cause a FTE? Sounds like a training issue.
I suspect that this is a training issue, rather than a firearm issue. Replacing the magazines is a common manufacturer “feel good” measure.
*ALL* semiauto pistols can and will do this if you use them improperly. Including the 1911, Springfield XD, HK USP, etc., etc.
Limp wristing most semiautos, not just Glocks, will get you a stovepipe or other FTE.
Good reason to use a revolver.
This vidal colon (yes, indeed, colons are important - don’t parents ever think?) needs to be charged with wasting taxpayer dollars. Firing 13 times when once should have done the trick.
lack of training won’t make the officer any better with a 1500$ pistola !
Sorry to spoil the glock bash... but any auto can jam.
Causes include
Climatic Conditions (very cold ammo does not work as well)
Poor Maintenance
Bad Ammo (under or over charged)
Poor Shooter stability (limp wristing)
This is NOT a comprehensive list
all of these can be worked on, but all autos CAN jam.
Unless you discover you have more than two or three targets. Or that you’re not Carlos Hathcock or Doc Holliday and that you actually *do* miss under stress. Or that you need more than six rounds because your target is armored.
In my experience, trouble does not come in convenient two packs. It often comes in the superjumbo economy size, at which point magazine capacity might keep you alive.
I refuse to carry any service weapon that has less than ten rounds.
Ruger p98 works every time. It even passed the govs test for the armed forces, but the gov bought the Italian one.
That is the correct answer. And to the OP, if you think a GLOCK is an expensive pistol you don’t get out much.
I teach pistol marksmanship using Ruger Mk IIIs and Springfield XDs (9mm). The 10 NRA purchased pistols see thousands of rounds through them each year at our gun club. IF you use good ammo AND clean your weapon regularly FTE stovepipes are non-existent. Old weapons occasionally need an extractor and or springs replaced, but in the 3 years we’ve owned them, and thousands of rounds fire, this failure type is RARE.
The government is now buying Rugers to supplement the Berettas and Sigs.
Would you and 2hard drive please tell me what “limp wristing” is.
Is this not holding the weapon firmly enough? Can you hold it firmly enough with just one hand or do you always have to use both hands?
Thanks.
You don't. You can have the same malfunction with any other manufactured automatic weapon. I've owned two Glocks, the 20 and 21. I've never had a problem with either. I can tell you, however, most "stovepipe" issues can be corrected with proper technique. You can take most automatics, shoot with "soft hands" and have it happen with regularity.
The only weapon I've been frustrated with was a Kahr PM45. For the first couple hundred rounds, it stovepiped constantly no matter what I did. It also was a thumb-killer on the slide release. Once it went through a break in period, it functioned just fine.
+ 1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limp_wristing
“Limp wristing is a term used to describe a phenomenon commonly encountered by semiautomatic pistol shooters, where the shooter’s grip is not firm enough to hold the frame of the pistol steady while the bolt or slide of the pistol cycles. This condition often results in a failure to complete the operating cycle, called a jam. Rifles and shotguns, if fired without the stock in the shoulder, may also be prone to limp wristing.”
You can one-hand a semiauto, but you need to lock your wrist so that your hand and arm (and therefore the firearm) ride up under recoil as a unit - this gets more important the lighter the pistol and the heavier the caliber. Two hands is better.
I’ve known many cops who were terrible about gun maintainence, I’ve seen green corroded cases in many magazines. On top of that I wouldn’t personally own a Glock if you gave me one. There is no substitute for practice and training, and it helps if someone is serious about mastering marksmanship.
Most semi auto pistols are subject to what you call limp wrist syndrome! Holding the gun to loosely will cause the slide to function poorly and cause jams. Not all autos have this problem but many do.
If you allow your hands or wrist to absorb too much of the recoil, you can have this problem. You can shoot with one hand if you keep a firm grip and wrist. You’ll have the most problem with your non-dominant hand. You should always practice two and one-handed shooting....right and left. You never know when it may be necessary.
Limpwristing is just as it sounds, not having a firm grip and a locked wrist...poor technique.
My Glock has never jammed, but then again, I keep it clean and hold it tightly.
The officer continued to fire after being hit several times. He successfully cleared the malfunction and continued to fire.
MPD’s actions are from caution.
“limp-wristing”?
Limp wristing [written in non-technical terms]:
When the handgun fires, the slide uses the explosion from the gunpowder to move backwards, and as the slide moves backwards, the spent casing is ejected from the barrel. The slide then moves forwards to pick up a new round from the magazine and lift it up and forward into the barrel.
If the grip is not stiff, then the movement of the slide back and forwards is not crisp, causing the slide to have problems carrying out its two main functions [ejecting spent casing; inserting new round].
I have never had a problem with one hand shooting; and one hand shooting is very common among target shooters. One just needs to have a firm, not crazy tight, just firm, grip.
Ever shake hands with someone who has a limp grip? That’s the type of grip that will cause problems.
My first thought was that the LEO is using lighter than normal “green” pills, er, bullets such as all copper ones that Kalifornia requires, as a reloader, gunsmith and an owner of quite a few types of handguns I have usually seen stovepipes occur with reduced charges or very light bullets especially frangibles, also is the recoil spring that is either too weak or too strong, occasionally it may be old stiff grease in the slides and cold weather.
As I said first and this applies to using the lead free bullets the all copper ones are lighter and may not generate enough recoil on the slide to make it cycle properly, there is data in reloading to change the powder burn rate to help this, and yes limp wristing is usually the culprit.
I like Glocks, I like Sigs even more, and I am no expert so what I say is not something to print just my experience.
Ignore my attempt at an explanation; and just refer to the wiki site from post 26!
Hate to slam the officer but it seems he would be well served to spend some quality time at the range.
He hit the perp with 8 of 13 shots while wounded. The perp hit him three times before he was able to return fire.
When I shot my Glock - first time I ever shot an auto of any sort, and my 6th or 7th round ever fired out of a pistol, I had 20 perfectly executed ejects and loads - not one single problem.
I heard echoing in my head before I puled the trigger the first time from the guy that sold me the weapon “don’t let it push you around, no limp wrists, you OWN this gun now, you paid for it! shoot it as such”.
I suspect most people’s issues with Glocks or any other auto come from three main things:
1) Improper maintenance
2) bad ammo
3) limp wrists
YMMV
Sure a revolver won’t stovepipe, but they sure as hell can malfunction. It’s not likely with a well maintained quality example like you pictured. However, I had first hand experience with cylinder jams on a crappy Rossi blue 2 in .357 mag. They may get better now that Taurus acquired them, but I’ll never own another one.
Most semiauto handguns eject by the recoil pushing the slide back, separating it from the firmly-held frame. If the frame is not firmly held, the frame moves back too and the two parts do not sufficiently separate. A stiff wrist makes this work correctly. A limp wrist will not work - either not ejecting at all, or just enough for the shell to get stuck between frame and slide, open end up (stovepipe).
A friend of a friend who’s an shooting instructor told me he thinks Sigs are the best.
Just remember: Any cheap firearm=small club
Are you serious?
I had a serious cyclider jam with my SW Model 19 and .357 Magnum rounds. It jammed, would not turn nor could I open it. Keeping the barrel downrange, I messed around with it for a while, then, while grasping the gun by the cylinder, had a really nifty hangfire, which injected fire, brass, lead and powder right into my hand.
Yup, that was fun, but at least I got a good story out of it.
You can still special order a “Six Pack” from Milt Sparks. 9 + 60 for the 1911. That should be enough to fight your way back to your rifle.
I carry HK on the job, and even with the green ammo, I would keep the feed ramp clean and it functioned flawlessly. I've never had a malfunction with my carry ammo. On range days I always shoot the stuff I've been carrying first as a confidence check.
A stovepipe incident is the easiest jam to fix. Sweep your non dominant hand over the top to clear the empty casing. Also, revolvers dont jam as autoloaders do, but you are limited to 5 or 6 rounds. But if your barrel on a revolver is not clean, your accuracy will suffer. Brass tacks, regardless if it is a saturday night special or a Desert Eagle, they need consistant care. If you take care if it, it will take care of you.
Sigs are outstanding firearms. I have put several thousand rounds through a 228.
Which handgun one picks is a matter of personal preference. I found that I am more accurate and faster with a Glock. Others hate Glocks.
I’ve carried an S&W M-59 for so long the frame has been refinished twice. All I’ve ever done mechanically is replace the barrel bushing and the recoil spring. It’s never let me down.
I just picked up several boxes of the tactical Barnes handgun pills, the .40/10mm 155gr. all copper ones, I am going to have to rework a load data for them as they are seated too deep. I like the performance factor of them and they may have a promising future, though I still prefer my Gold Dots and the venerable Winchester Silvertips.
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