Dodging punches
Posted on 04/10/2009 2:14:40 PM PDT by ConservativeStatement
NEW YORK — Muhammad Ali described his third and final fight with Joe Frazier as "death, closest thing to dyin' that I know of."
Frazier recalls their brutal matchup outside Manila as something much less grandiose.
"We just did our job," he said.
The two great heavyweights always have been the ying and yang of boxing. Why should things change nearly 35 years later?
(Excerpt) Read more at delcotimes.com ...
Cassius sure could box
What does Frazier think that Obama is going to do for boxing?
Is he an idiot who has bought into the Obama is going to fix everything hype?
What a sad story.
“The Thrilla in Manila” (their third fight) was probably the best heavyweight championship fight in history. But their first encounter (in ‘71) was almost as thrilling, and the build-up and drama surrounding the event was a lot higher. I was young, but I remember the entire country taking sides. ...and it got pretty serious. I was in the Frazier camp.
That’s amazing.
I never liked cassius clay, still dont but when he pulled out the little plastic monkey and started punching it saying “this is what Im going to do to the gorilla in Manila I laughed till I cried.
They say that was Ali’s strength, right there: getting in close and not getting smashed.
I wonder if Ali could say that today without being called a racist.
btt
He was super quick and had the amazing ability to keep his eyes open and on the incoming punches so that he could react and dodge. But being a great boxer doesn’t make one a great person.
You can't go home, Mr. Frazier. You probably know that.
Ultimate fighting draws a lot bigger crowd than boxing, now. The last few times I've watched ultimate fighting, the place was packed and the crowd was rabid. The last few times I've seen boxing, the place was half empty and people were walking in and out during the matches.
So, Frazier’s “blacker” than Ali? How freaked out is that?
Joe shut him up for awhile if memory serve me. He broke Clays jaw (they wired it shut) and had him eating pudding for about a month.
I always despised that draft-dodging, Elijah Muhammed-invoking, Nation of Islam racist POS Ali. The incidents you relayed are a perfect window into Ali’s (lack of) character.
...c’mon gorilla, we in manila”
Was that the actual quote ?
Note to AP: Please, please, please - see if you can find someone, anyone, who has some college edumacation!
Ali’s skill in the ring wasn’t enough to make up for his shortcomings as an American and a human being.
***Joe shut him up for awhile if memory serve me. He broke Clays jaw (they wired it shut) and had him eating pudding for about a month.****
Isn’t that the punch that also permanently scrambled Ali’s brains?
I used to like how Ali gave other boxers nicknames based on the shape of their head.....he called Larry Holmes “the peanut” and he called Ernie Shavers “the Acorn”......
I saw a Tyson fight many years ago in Vegas. All the fights that night were so obviously fixed that I have never watched one since.
I remember seeing a TV clip when Ali had just finished a fight he won. Immediately Howard Cosell jumped into the ring with microphone and a panting Ali. Cosell called Joe Frazier on the phone, said a few words to stir the pot and then gave the phone to Ali who said, “ Ah Joe, it’s just Howard agitatin’ again”.
That was Ken Norton that broke Ali’s jaw. Ali had some trouble with fighters with good speed who were good in close (Frazier, Norton, Bonavena) and deny him punching room. But Foreman was a big strong counter puncher and ate fighters like that alive (He Ko’d Frazier and Norton in 2 and Frazier again in 5.
But Foreman was easy for Clay. He was way too slow to stay with him and always had poor endurance.
I’ve always believed Joe won all three bouts.
I like Norton a lot more than Ali. I also think Ron Lyle beat Ali. He knocked Ali down a few times then they stopped the fight and gave it to Ali.
Boxing will never be as popular as it once was because all the big fights are on pay-per-view and pay channels. If they still had the biggest fights for free on network TV it would be much more popular than it is now. They also need to stop charging $50-$60 for each pay-per-view card. I watch all boxing and MMA pay-per-views for free with Sopcast.
How could Frazier have he won the third fight when Eddie Futch stopped the fight between the 14th. and 15th. round?
The outcome of the third fight isn't a matter of belief or opinion -- Frazier quit on his stool after the 14th round from exhaustion, and Ali was battering him at will at the time of the stoppage. As I mentioned earlier, probably the best heavyweight championship fight ever.
The second fight was a very boring affair with Ali winning easily on points -- no controversy. Frazier had a particularly bad outing -- he just wasn't on his game.
Frazier beat Ali only in the first fight, and that was a very close contest.
I was rooting like crazy for Frazier to knock Ali's head off in all three contests, but alas it just wasn't to be. The best moments Frazier had against Ali were the famous knockdown (left hook) in the 15th round of the first fight and the middle round (7th through 12th) pounding he administered the third fight.
Ali is a racist, pure and simple, but the old Liberal double standard, as always, rules. Only whites are guilty of racism.
I shouldn't have said he quit, but he was a clearly beaten man. All the snap to his punches was gone, and his defense was non-existent. His trainer Eddie Futch did the right thing.
What's interesting is that while this was going on in Frazier's corner, Ali was pleading with his own trainer (Angelo Dundee) to stop the fight because he was exhausted. Dundee refused, and Ali then told him that he would refuse to come out of his corner for the 15th if Dundee didn't stop it. But Frazier's corner quit first, and Ali was therefore declared the winner. An incredible episode.
If it went to the scorecards after 14 rounds, I'd probably have scored the fight even.
those exact words were just part of a long ali ramble before the fight. the ‘real’ fight was said to have been between belinda ali and the champ before the HCF as she caught ali with his on the side babe,(soon to be his 3rd wife)veronica. belinda showed up, let ali have it, then jumped right back on a jet to return to America.
I don’t remember lyle knocking ali down in their fight once, let alone twice. are we thinking of the same fight? I do not believe ali was ever knocked down twice in any of his fights and I think it happened only 4 or 5 times total in his career.
See above. Ali was whipped. Frazier quit first. If he hadn’t, Ali would have.
“Muhammad Ali was one of the best heavyweights of all time but he’s also the most overrated athlete of all time.”
So true. He had an outsized personality, but when you look close enough, he wasn’t as dominant as they’d have you believe. He clearly lost to Frazier in ‘71. He came within seconds of losing in Manilla, when he asked for his gloves to be cut off. Luckily, Frazier’s corner called the fight first. When you watch the footage, Ali literally collapses after the forfeit is announced. And you can’t fake that sort of thing. It was real.
Not that Ali didn’t win. Damn close, that’s all I’m saying. Same thing with the “Rumble in the Jungle”. No other fight bolsters his legendary status like this one, but it was based on fortuitous timing, in my opinion. He unloaded on Foreman at just the right time, then Foreman screwed up the count. That’s big George’s fault, I realize. I’m not gonna say it was a fast count or anything. But it is obvious from the footage that Foreman was biding his time on the mat, and that he got at the most a milisecond after the ref says “nine.”
People say George never would have recovered. We’ll never know. Also, there was never a rematch. What if Frazier had never given Ali a rematch?
The point is Ali bested Frazier and Foreman by the narrowest of margins.
Not that he wasn’t the greatest boxer of all time. He could very well be, but it’s impossible to tell. It all depends on who’s fighting at what time, and how fighters match up. Rocky Marciano never lost, which is something Ali can’t say. Then again Marciano’s opponents weren’t as good as Frazier and Foreman. Then again again, it can be argued that Frazier at least, and possibly Foreman, were as good as Ali.
“I do not believe ali was ever knocked down twice in any of his fights”
yes he was, by Joe Frazier, Madison Square Garden, 1971.
One of the announcers claims he slipped, but he slipped right after Joe punched him hard, and I have a hard time believing in such coincidences.
which round did the second knockdown happen in ‘THE FIGHT’? none of my boxing history books, 1971 ‘sport magazines, 1971 ‘sports illustrated’ magazines mention a second knockdown that was put into the books as a recorded knockdown. if it was just your opinion that there was another knockdown that’s cool but I do not believe there was another recorded knockdown. I just watched the entire fight again (from the internet) last night and only one knockdown was recorded that I saw anyway. I might be in error, let me know if you find out something different. bobby
Everyone knows Frazier put Ali on his back in the 15th round. It was also my understanding that Ali went down in the 11th. I reviewed the footage, and to be sure, he left his feet.
Not sure whether or not this was registered as an “official” knockdown. I’m not any kind of boxing expert. Never fought myself, and only tune in to see the really big matches. Obviously, if a fighter slips or is tripped up, it shouldn’t count. After scanning the internet, I see the 11th round incident is usually referred to as a “slip” or a “stagger”.
Again, I don’t mean to beat up on Ali (Frazier did plenty enough of that for both of us). All I’m saying is when you look at the fights that made him a legend, he comes off as all too human. The Liston fight was one of the most bizzare sports events of the century, the Foreman fight was less brilliant strategy than shrewd trick and lucky timing, and Frazier lost by the thinnest of possible margins in Manilla.
I just viewed the 11th round again and from the footage I watched I did not see Ali leave his feet at any point or way. he did get staggered but nothing severe enough that meets any of the 4 criteria of what is required for the in ring ref to rule a knockdown as it happens (or the 2 ringside judges to add a knockdown determination to the official fight statistics after reviewing the fight later like they have been known to do, rare but it has happened)in a heavyweight professional title fight. Clay/Ali goes into the final books being officially being knocked down once in Ali/Frazier 1 and 3 other times in his pro career. Ali/Frazier 1, ‘the fight of the century’ lived up to the hype and things damn near stopped the evening of the fight. no TV, no radio (other than a ‘round summary’ following each round, how I got it) or by a theater, closed circuit transmission. long time ago huh? good to talk boxing with someone again, I have followed it extremely close since I was kid but I haven’t found very many boxing fans left lately, the younger ones seem to have gone for the mixed martial arts styles and I guess there are not enough older ones left period!
“I just viewed the 11th round again and from the footage I watched I did not see Ali leave his feet at any point or way.”
If you get HBO, watch the “Thrilla In Manilla” documentary. They show Frazier watching the slip/knockdown, which comes very early in the 11th round. I don’t know at what time, but both Joe and I definitely see Ali go down. He didn’t kiss the canvass, but he was at least on one of his knees.
If it wasn’t official, that’s fine. But the “slip” curiously comes right after Frazier hits him, so I’ve always thought of it as knockdown.
“good to talk boxing with someone again, I have followed it extremely close since I was kid but I haven’t found very many boxing fans left lately, the younger ones seem to have gone for the mixed martial arts styles and I guess there are not enough older ones left period!”
I am relatively young, a teenager during the Lewis/Holyfield/Tyson era. It’s true, mixed martial arts has conquered the world. I think it has less to do with the superiority of that sport (the rules are less stifling, but how fun is it, really, to watch people grapple on the ground?) than the complete lack of popular heavyweights. Vitali Klitschko is no Ali.
I will find that HBO show, sounds like it has some footage that might not have been shown on that first NBC replay of the fight, and I have might not have seen it. IIRC the ‘71 fight has only been shown on TV in it’s entirety just a few times. (I myself have never seen it on TV once since that first showing, but youtube has had it up forever). I never see it on any of the boxing specials on various channels and have you noticed on the Ali retro looks at his career they show every fight BUT Ali/Frazier 1? I just started watching the mixed fighting and is def. interesting and different, those men are in incredible shape. from 1972 thru 1988 I went to every closed circuit (showing if it was not on TV) of every big time fight, any weight class or division but there was nothing like the last couple of days leading up to an Ali title fight. whether a guy disliked him or liked him, it was really something, all the fancy dressers, pimp like characters running around, fancy cars around the theaters. etc. at one time I had a heck of a bunch of his old ‘fight programs’ ya could buy at the theater fight night but they are all gone or lost now. the only thing I have left, memorabilia wise, other than boxing books is a ticket stub from the Ali/Foreman’s ‘rumble in the jungle’ fight. saw the black and white theater closed circuit broadcast of that fight live at the Paramount theater, Seattle Washington. that was my favorite fight of the entire bunch.
“...and have you noticed on the Ali retro looks at his career they show every fight BUT Ali/Frazier 1?”
As far as I remember, the Will Smith movie “Ali” skipped over the Frazier fights altogether. It showed Frazier and Ali all buddy-buddy during Ali’s hiatus, when Frazier helped him get his license back, but then they jumped ahead to Foreman. How this big-budgeted, highly honored supposed bio-pic could skip over arguably the most important fight of the 20th century is beyond me (monstrous gate, two undefeated champions, Ali’s first loss, highlight of Frazier’s career, etc).
How many of his prime fighting years did Ali lose during his forced retirement? Was he ever as good after he came back as he was before he left? Who of all the great heavyweights do you think could have beat Ali in his prime?
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