Posted on 03/19/2009 10:28:16 PM PDT by Maelstorm
"An unlimited power to tax involves, necessarily, a power to destroy." -- Daniel Webster
Obama and Company have piled one mistake on top of another with AIG.
First off, they should have never pumped 173 billion dollars into AIG in the first place. At best, we should have used loans and insurance to help keep them solvent. At worst, we should have let them go under -- but instead, the government chose to buy into AIG.
Then, Chris Dodd and the Obama Administration worked together to protect the bonuses at companies like AIG without realizing it would become a hot political potato down the line.
Next up, all hell broke loose over the bonuses, and we have all this posturing over these bonuses from the Democrats in Congress and in the Obama administration -- as if they didn't specifically work to make it possible for these bonuses to be paid out in the first place.
Now, in an effort to compound the stunning series of errors that led us to this point, the Democrats are planning to try to target these AIG executives with a special tax.
That is incredibly hypocritical, irresponsible. Targeting people's incomes with a special tax because the public is mad at them opens up a rather dangerous can of worms as Jeb Hensarling explains,
"You know, this is the wrong instrument to go around and say [about] people that do things that are reprehensible, 'I'm just going to tax them. Who's up tomorrow? You know, a lot of my colleagues vote on reprehensible legislation -- when I'm in power, should I vote to increase their taxes 100 percent?"
If we're going to start playing this game, how about we aim a massive tax at former congressmen who lobby for a living -- after all, lobbyists are supposed to be bad guys, right? Oh, and how about a 90% tax on people who make over a million dollars per year acting? After all, no one deserves that kind of money just to act and those guys are jerks anyway. Know who else we should tax into the ground? Employees of organizations that engage in voter fraud -- I'm looking at you, ACORN.
Is this a road we want to go down?
Moreover, this would appear to be a crystal clear violation of Article 1, section 9 of the Constitution which reads in part,
"No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed."
What's a bill of attainder?
"A bill of attainder was a legislative act that singled out one or more persons and imposed punishment on them, without benefit of trial. Such actions were regarded as odious by the framers of the Constitution because it was the traditional role of a court, judging an individual case, to impose punishment."
They can dress it up any way they want, but clearly that's what's being done here -- and no one who cares about the Constitution should support it.
PS: So if the GOP shouldn't support this bill, what should they do? They should introduce legislation that will get the government out of AIG and any other company that pays out bonuses as soon as possible.
Why? Because we shouldn't have bought into AIG and these other companies in the first place. This bonus issue isn't just an issue with AIG; nor will it be the last issue that comes up because of the new nexus between government and the banking industry. The quicker we get our money back and get out, the quicker these sort of inevitable conflicts will happily fade into the rear view mirror.
Yes you are right. Sadly, everyone who voted for this bill will be a populist hero - much like Hugo Chavez.
I don’t know. This kind of crap isn’t working. There is a breaking point approaching if they keep it up. People are upset and they see a government doing what ever it wants regardless of the will of the people.
Yeah, they’ll teach those fat cat Republicans!
Regardless of the constitutionality, defending the AIG bonuses is the losing side of the issue politically. Anybody who takes a principled stand on this had better be prepared to suffer the consequences. Those are just the facts. It doesn’t matter who makes the argument, not even Rush himself. People are viscerally angry and they aren’t listening.
Technically the gov't did both. The initial deal was a loan at LIBOR +8 payable over 2 years AND a 79.9% equity interest. The deal has since been modified several times and the equity was exchanged for non-cumulative preferred. But your point is well taken, there is no clear strategy here. They appear to be making it up as they go along
Breaking the law, is exactly that. This is an outrage, but like you said, since everyone wants to see blood, they’ll get it. I hope all the AIG folks say, F You, and walk out, together. Then lets see what the govt does, as the pilot bais out with a parachute, leaving the batsard passengers to fly the plane. FOKK our govt...
This one has sure muddied the water for the GoP.. just when they had bailed out the flood waters, here comes another gully washer.
The bad thing , some of them will get swept away when all they had to do was stay on the high ground, which some may well think they are doing in their own mind..
The good thing, a lot of turds will be washed away as well.
People are viscerally angry and they aren’t listening.
Can you blame them? The average American worker who gets up every day and works his/her butt off will not see $1 mil during an entire lifetime of labor.
Figure the nurse, who saves lives, will not see a fraction of what these company/economy wrecking guys are getting as a bonus.
For better or for worse, Americans possess a certain sense of fairness. Pols who go against that do so at their own peril.
If Republicans were smart and I wouldn’t bet on it they would be pounding on the connection between Obama, Dodd, and the AIG money 24x7 but instead they cave. No body gives a damn about this vote. The vast majority of America did not support giving the money in the first place. What the GOP should have did is offered a constitutionally sound alternative. I’m done making excuses for the clowns. They don’t deserve to win. They can’t even get something simple straight. Just when I think that the GOP is getting its act together it does something unprincipled.
Since when did the left care what the Constitution said?
Exactly! You hit the nail on the head. They didn’t have to participate at all. It was zero cost for them to just simply attack the Democrats and even better call on Dodd and Obama to give the campaign dollars (bonus) they got back. Instead they do something that should trouble anyone who has any respect for the Constitution or does it only apply to firearms?
It’s true that these were contracts and usually should be honored. I would argue the contracts were excessively large under the circumstances and the expertise needed to “wind things down” at AIG is a overstated.
However, we are no longer in the realm of the legal and constitutional but in the realm of the political. And the populace OVERWHELMINGLY is for revenge, misguided and ignorant for sure, but it exists.
The Republicans need to toe the company line on this and play the game, get behind the tax and use it as a chip for later.
Besides, even if it is challenged as a Bill of attainder, it will be locked up so long in the courts that by the time it’s resolved, AIG will be gone or profitable, either way, tax money will no longer be an issue.
Leave it to a liberal to pass a stupid law allowing some idiotic loophole... and then to pass an even stupider, unconstitutional law to cover for their earlier stupidity.
From here it will only spiral down to the real “bottom”
By the time I was in the 10th grade I knew this was unconstitutional. You can't pass laws after the fact, and you can't target small groups singling them out the way they are.
This is absurd. Our government is like a Monty Python Comedy Circus show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g
So what you suggest is that we swallow this unconstitutional bitter pill and cross our fingers and pray that we do not work for a company that the mob finds objectionable next week?
Since they made up that part that says women have the right to murder their unborn children. Other than that, the Constitution is dead to them. FWIW.
They won’t walk out. They need all need to keep working and now that the feds own AIG, they know that it’s a secure firm to work for. And where would they all go anyways?? AIG can sink the competition as long as the feds own it.
Eleven of the AIG employees who were received so-called retention bonuses of $1 million or more are no longer with the company, according to a letter from New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo that was sent to Rep. Barney Frank.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/29735469
“So what you suggest is that we swallow this unconstitutional bitter pill and cross our fingers and pray that we do not work for a company that the mob finds objectionable next week?”
Yes, we do need to swallow this bitter pill. But I didn’t get what you meant by the second part. Can you explain that?
I do not think that his vote will hurt him, in the long run.
In fact, in the primary, where people in the GOP should CARE about the Constitution, it should help Tiarht in his Senate race against the Constitutionally illiterate Jerry Moron Moran!
Heck... Obambi and the Congress did this with the latest cigarette tax...
And, now they're targeting people 55 and over for involuntary servitude for 3 years... when they should be enjoying their golden years...
And, Obambi and company will be targeting ALL sick people with their Health Care Reform bill... picking and choosing who and how to treat sick people
Obambi and company are also targeting certain industries, e.g. coal, oil, etc. because this activist maggots are p'od at them...
There is a mob mentality being ginned over the AIG bonus scandal. What if next week Pelosi and company decide that employees of tobacco companies should pay 85% tax rates because their products kill people or say Exxon gets taxed at 90% because we don’t like big oil. My point is that emotion driven revenge plays into the hands and agenda of those that intend to do our country harm.
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus
Bonusgate!
One of the arguments made to pay the bonuses was that they would leave if they got stiffed. They got paid and left anyway.
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus
I agree. In addition to being unconstitutional, it plays right into Obama’s plan to demonize corporations and capitalism.
Hopefully enough folks understand that, and wake up quick. If not, man, the next few years are going to be really awful. Zimbabwe here we come?
In a way, everyone that is negatively affected by this, and voted for Oblunder, is getting what they deserve.
We don’t know the circumstances surrounding their departure so it’s only speculation to say they left voluntarily. Retention plans can also be for a limited term. For example, in a bankruptcy or acquisition it is common for many of the “dead men walking” to be retained on bonus knowing that after 6 months or so they are unemployed but they are needed during the transtion specifically for their inside knowledge.
KING: Back to the economy. The House today passed a measure to slap a hefty tax on big employee bonuses paid by companies getting federal bail outs. Good idea?
ROMNEY: Well, look, everybody is mad at AIG and their executives for doing what they did. It makes no sense at all. But to suggest that this is not the fault of the people in Congress who passed the specific measure allowing them to take these bonuses is a diversionary tactic and wrong. You don't have a government take punitive action against a small group of people. Frankly, it's unconstitutional, in my view. You don't want to see that kind of power exercised by a governmental authority, to say, you know what, we're going to go after you. What they did to those guys -- the guys at AIG, I'm mad at them as anybody else. What if they said, that Larry King, he said some very offensive things about our president; we're going to go after his bonus and pass a bill to take away his money. That is not the American way. And I understand it was driven by emotion. But in my view, it was the wrong course.
Were using hand tools on a 10k acre farm.
The bottomline is simple: Taking up the cause that these folks should receive bonuses is a losing play for conservatives.
Any justification, including Constitutional, just sounds like spin to the vast majority of folks out there.
It never ends. Give a lib an inch and he'll take a mile.
Who needs principle when you're popular?
I agree with that sentiment but I feel that it also represents a dangerous slippery slope. What's missing from the dialog, purposely omitted I might add, is the understanding that within AIG's multiple companies are thousands of average Joes that are being retained to assist in the breakup of the company. These people now go to work every day with a target on their backs put there by the Dems class warfare tactics and envy politics.
The bill passed today assesses a 90% tax if FAMILY income exceeds $250,000. This means a mid level executive with a spouse making similar money is subject to a punitive tax while a single person making the same money is exempt. Even a lower paid manager with a high earner spouse who doesn't earn one dime from AIG is going to get whacked.
If enough people understood the danger in this they might have a different opinion. Unfortunately they will not learn until they are the "them" they want to have revenge on.
Okay, maybe it’s just me, but backing multi-million dollar bonuses for guys who wrecked a company — even with arguments neatly wrapped in the Constitution — does not seem like a great rallying cry for the conservative movement.
There's a saying that goes "I may disagree and despise every word that comes out of your mouth but I will give my life defending your right to say it." It's called principle, standing up for what you believe is right although you disagree with the reasons for doing it.
Enough with the slippery slope. Life is more complicated than Newtonian physics. The analogy doesn’t apply because there are multiple influences at work in any given situation.
It’s very simple: If conservatives want to stick to their guns on this issue, then they will lose everyone but the devoted base. And you don’t win elections with just a base.
The Constitution was tossed when the illegitimate president was seated.
What’s going to happen is that the names will be leaked, one way or another. Some secretary or temp will send them out.
The press will track these guys down and start stalking them — pictures of houses, descriptions of the kind of lifestyles they live, and fairly ornate portraits of all of life’s goodies that kind of money buys.
Meanwhile, back in the real world, folks worried about their jobs, homes, cars and kids will gobble this stuff up. So you have a couple million people saying, “Wait, you mean I’m....
Hanging drywall on stilts
Emptying bedpans
Rebuilding transmissions
for 12 hours a day for peanuts and the Republicans gave these guys millions of dollars for wrecking a company?
Good...anyone that agrees with this might as well be a Democrat. It's about time we culled the herd anyway.
Yeah but the guy on the stilts, the mechanic or the sheet rock hanger may find out that the AIG bonus recipient is just his neighbor, not some millionaire bogeyman.
This is politics. The idea is to win elections. And, while I’m no great political guru, culling the herd does not seem like a great strategy for winning elections.
The guy hanging sheet rock isn’t living in New Canaan. Trust me on that one.
I guess my point is that not all the money went to high salaried executives. They may be high profile but there are many others just trying to make a living and that just got one hell of a lot harder.
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