Posted on 03/11/2009 1:44:22 PM PDT by Jim Robinson
A former chaplain with the Virginia State Police says he had no choice but to step down after a new policy took effect requiring generic prayers at department events.
Last summer, Rex Carter and five others resigned from the volunteer chaplain program. The move came after a new rule was instituted that restricted prayers by the volunteer chaplains. Carter, who is still a State Police officer, said he had no other choice once he was told he could not pray in the name of Jesus.
~~snip~~
Recently, a State Senate panel killed a bill that would have prohibited State Police officials from restricting prayers by volunteer chaplains.
(Excerpt) Read more at onenewsnow.com:80 ...
He did right, resigning.
You have to wonder. Why ask someone to pray if you don’t believe his prayer means anything. And if you do think his prayer is real and effectual, let the man pray the way he knows how to pray.
The Virginia State Senate was recently taken over by the left. We hope to change things this November.
"Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven."
Unfortunately, the Virginia Senate doesn't have elections this year. All members of the House are up, but the Senate isn't up until 2011.
All religion must be generic except for those who follow Allah. (sarcasm off)
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Didn’t the change initiate in the governor’s office? I read once that Kaine supported the change. Governor McDonnell’s administration would have a religious liberty provision, unlike Tim Kaine. But I might be remembering it wrong.
God bless this man.
Godless policemen. Not safe.
Excerpt from the First Virginia Charter (April 10, 1606) - in the days long before 'PC-speak':
... [3rd paragraph]
Wee, greately commending and graciously accepting of theire desires to the furtherance of soe noble a worke which may, by the providence of Almightie God, hereafter tende to the glorie of His Divine Majestie in propagating of Christian religion to suche people as yet live in darkenesse and miserable ignorance of the true knoweledge and worshippe of God and may in tyme bring the infidels and salvages living in those parts to humane civilitie and to a setled and quiet govermente, ...
The founders would gag at the mush-speakers we've become...
Whenever I hear about this kind of issue, I pretend that the government-sponsored chaplain (school teacher or whoever) was preaching radical muslim doctrine, and I am totally okay with doing away with the practice.
The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, 16 January 1786by Thomas Jefferson
(excerpt)
"Be it enacted by General Assembly that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of Religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge or affect their civil capacities."
No, you’re correct. I think we’re talking past each other. I believe you are correct that it was a Kaine appointment who issued the directive and Kaine supported it.
I thought you meant that we’d be changing the makeup of the Senate this year.
Maybe you're right. The alternative would be to pray the way he knows how to pray, and dare them to fire him. Maybe they do, and maybe they don't, but he continues in his job until they push him out. But for sure, he should never let anyone dictate the form or even the content of his prayer.
No protest from the Christian Police?
HokieMom wrote: “The Virginia State Senate was recently taken over by the left.”
The Virginia State Motto... Sic Semper Tyrannis...
Sure wish we could! Getting Attorney General McDonnell in there will be awesome. I did hear a democrat say she heard Terry McAuliffe on the radio and he was being a "total jerk" so that's good news.
I think you may be missing the whole point. Virginia is establishing a special, Jesus-free state religion, in violation of the Establishment Clause.
In the end, it WILL NOT be Obama that wins!
What do you mean?
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
The order is unconstitutional.
Virginia as a state and we as a nation will pay for these abominations and denials. We are paying now having 0bama as president. The most pro baby death president ever, ruining our economy, caving to our enemies both domestic and foreign.
I think we may be starting to experience God’s wrath in full measure. Not meaning to sound like a prophet of doom but the hand writing is on the wall and it doesn’t take a Joseph or a Daniel to read it.
That may be, but Virginia was founded by practicing Christians not Muslims and they believed in religious freedom:
Section 16. Free exercise of religion; no establishment of religion.
That religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and, therefore, all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other.
http://legis.state.va.us/Laws/Search/Constitution.htm#1S16
There is no entanglement between faith and the powers of government when the name Jesus is called on, in fact Jesus taught separation
Second, he was not practicing radical Islam, pretending is a lie to yourself, and lies only lead to more lies and deception
Doing away with beneficial rituals by government intervention, erodes the moral foundation of a nation and imposes secularism by force
How is this any different than the military policy. IE - only nondenonimal prayers at official events.
More of the same...
It’s not. It’s a continuing war against freedom of religion in general and Christianity in particular:
Jesus Name Not to be used by Military Chaplains
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1522812/posts
by Thomas Jefferson
(excerpt)
"Be it enacted by General Assembly that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burdened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of Religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge or affect their civil capacities."
---
While the last half gives people the right to profess their religion, it does not countermand the first half... that no one may be compelled to frequent/support any religion against their will.
And official functions, by their nature, are mandatory... so any prayers at one cannot support/endorse any particular religion.
You don't believe that police officers, fire fighters and EMTs should have the benefit of chaplains? They all face situations that are just as horrific as combat.
Whenever I hear about this kind of issue, I pretend that the government-sponsored chaplain (school teacher or whoever) was preaching radical muslim doctrine, and I am totally okay with doing away with the practice.
Why is it that people who are opposed to public displays of religious belief invariably base that opposition on a scenario which has never existed?
Based on the incredibly small percentage of Muslims in America, I imagine that you would be hard pressed to find any Muslim chaplains.
The chaplains who I have known are generally far more focused on the spiritual welfare of those they serve than they are with specific doctrine. All chaplains are aware that those they minister to are invariably going to be a mixture of Protestants, Catholics, Jews, etc. and they are aware that they will be totally ineffective if they use their own personal doctrinal beliefs divisively.
I have pinged xzins to this post because he is a retired military chaplain and hopefully he can shed a little more light on this subject.
Simply put, this is a religious argument. Not all people who believe in God believe in Jesus. Christians are generally not offended by calling Jesus “God.”
Therefore, if someone stands before a public group that contains both Christians, and non-Christian believers in God, if they say “God”, it will generally be interpreted as non-denominational, even if they are thinking of, or praying to Jesus.
However, if they use the word “Jesus”, that is not only interpreted by other God believers as sectarian, but in their lights, heretical and offensive.
This has been the standard rule for many years, in mixed company, when performing a polite invocation.
However, some people cannot abide that their sectarian creed is not used in favor of polite agreement. Others do take offense when they cannot contain themselves, and they know that to invoke Jesus instead of God is intended to annoy others.
Government, properly, should stay out of this fight. This is why at government sanctioned events, chaplains are hired with the intent that they sponsor a prayer to “God”, not “Jesus”.
Innumerable court cases by those who could not contain their passions eventually opened the legal door to challenges from people who do not worship God at all, and want to dispense with the entire invocation.
So the reward for insisting on sectarianism is atheism.
I agree, the government should not be tangled in religion. However the government here is defining religion, a direct violation of the Constitution.
But when your government has looted all the wealth, imposed illegal taxes and then been printing IOU's for years, what do you expect from them. They are not leaders, they are criminals and traitors, and have violated their oaths of office.
As a citizen, the only legal course left to me by the Constitution is to take up arms when there excesses become beyond tolerance. I choose to put up with them, violence is not warented at this point. I am still hoping that law enforcement will step in at some nearby juncture.
As a man of faith, I have a second recourse. Prayer, for justice. And they will have justice in the end, for they swore by the bible in the name of God.
Really sucks to be them.
This action is being taken by a State. That doesn't mean we have to like it though.
FWIW, a Republican won a special election in Fairfax County yesterday (yeah, folks, that’s NORTHERN VA) ... a seat never before held by a Republican. Things are bad here, but not hopeless.
“Why ask someone to pray if you don’t believe his prayer means anything. And if you do think his prayer is real and effectual, let the man pray the way he knows how to pray.”
1. I don’t disagree that this is assine.
2. The theological reason observant Jewish object to this is that praying in Jesus’s name is deemed heretical and Jews are forbidden to participate — even by silence — in such a prayer. For example, some of my family (who are very observant Jews) won’t even go into a church for a kinsmans funeral (who was Christian).
3. The reason non-observant JINOs object is to be assholes.
One of the subsequent amendments applies all the Congress to States.
Oh, that's awesome! Glad the election story has a happy ending. Now for the fun part...
So, you think these policemen don’t know which of their chaplains are Christians and that if so, they pray in the name of Jesus? You’d think if that really offends them, they’d simply avoid them. Wonder who sent the original complaint? My guess it was some ACLU busybody that was not even directly affected. Surely any atheists could simply skip the services.
The state and its forceful coercion should butt out. It’s an issue for the citizens and local organizations involved. Individual rights, free speech, religious freedom, self-government, individual responsibility, freedom of assembly, freedom of choice, etc, etc, etc.
I’m surprised that the christian policeman are not expressing their disappointment on the ban of mentioning Christ in prayers!
Agree... but let’s face it, things get a bit murky at times.
bttt
The problem with this is it creates the slippery slope. If it is ok to oust chaplains in the police departments, why not fire departments. Surely firemen and policemen need God's protection and the love of Jesus..... but if we can oust chaplains in the police and fire departments, why not the military? The ACLU is already trying to ban chaplains and religious service in the military. Why give them the precedent?
We should be promoting Christianity, whether through chaplains, teachers, whatever; not saying our judgment is above the Word of God where we can pretend it to be something its not.
"....when they came for me there was no one left."
The trouble is that far too often such meetings are mandatory. I had the unpleasant experience of sitting next to a senior Jordanian army officer as a senior US Army chaplain gave an invocation that not only about created an international incident, but confused that chaplain’s sectarian beliefs with US Army policy.
The chaplain was retired shortly thereafter, and the verbal and written apologies were extensive.
Yes, people of all religions get upset when someone thinks they can get away with it, and gets sectarian. Usually it is a situation of “might makes right”, in which the minority are told to put a sock in it, so the majority can preach their beliefs fully.
In truth, it is a sign of strength when a chaplain can remain non-denominational. In most of the world they would never dream of doing so.
Thanks for the post.
Leave it to the people directly involved. The state should butt out.
I feel bad for the police forces and militaries that make these kinds of decisions. They are saying “No Thanks” to a very strong and loving ally.
It’s not the same thing. It also forces us to reject our own country’s history and what the Founders understood.
Simply saying a prayer in Jesus’ name isn’t forcing anything on anyone. How about all the people there that WANT to hear the prayer and want to pray it? Why are you people never concerned about their rights? What about the chaplain’s right to pray the prayer he wants to pray without state interference?
This is never an issue with other religions. People bend over backwards and tolerate teaching islam in the schools. Yet we are denying our own heritage by doing this stuff while at the same time allowing other religions to do this. Our country has a Christian heritage. To divorce it entirely (which it never has been) is insane. Any society that rejects its own background and histroy while promoting everyone else’s (under diversity) is nuts and only provokes division and balkanization.
Look at what’s going on in Europe and South Africa and that’s what we’ve got to look forward to.
And besides this is on the state level, not the federal level. Jefferson’s wall of separation was between the state govt and the federal government. AS a Governor, Jefferson regularly invoked days of prayer for his state and had no problems doing so, because at the state level nothing prevented him from doing so and it was not a conflict of state and religion. AS a president, he did not invoke such days of prayer because he did believe it did cross the line. But not on the state level.
So as this is a state level matter, Jefferson would have no trouble with this. Only within the last 50 years an activist Supreme court ruling changed where the ‘wall of separation’ is, from where Jefferson saw it, to pushing it so that the state govt was now on the same side as the federal govt.
I have my own phrase - that no one else likes. We need a “Christian in the room”. Conversations, activities, moods all change when there is a Christian in the room. Since the Supreme Court started censoring Christians, there are less Christians to go around; and when they are there, the anti-Christians feel free to attack. The country just can’t run without God.
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