Or
"Allah Peanutbutter Sandwiches"
Posted on 01/28/2009 2:39:23 PM PST by knighthawk
THE HAGUE, 29/01/09 - Moroccans in the Netherlands are not allowed to give their children any Berber names any more. In this way, Islamic identity is being stressed, Trouw newspaper reported yesterday.
By far the biggest group of Moroccans in the Netherlands are of Berber origin, a region in the mountainous north of Morocco. "They will now be forced to give their children a Moroccan-Islamic name," according to Trouw. "Morocco wants to secure the Moroccan identity of its nationals in this way, including the Moroccan Dutch."
The Moroccan government in Rabat sent all embassies and consulates abroad a list of banned name this week. Christian names were already forbidden. "We forbid Berber names because they conflict with the identity and because they open the door to the spread of meaningless names," said Idris Bajdi, a top official in Morocco, in the newspaper.
Labour (PvdA) MP Samira Bouchibti, a Moroccan national (by royal Moroccan decree) like all other Moroccans who moved to or were born in the Netherlands, is angry. "We must get rid of these lists of names and this interference. I want to be able to decide myself how I name my children. This is discriminatory."
Bouchibti also criticised her party leader Wouter Bos, who said at a PvdA party meeting earlier this week that dual passports "belong in the Netherlands." Bouchibti: "Bos has no enforced dual nationality and therefore does not know what it means in practice." Bos considers dual nationality can foster intergation.
Ping
No mass protests in Europe???
So everyone gets named Mohammed?
Or
"Allah Peanutbutter Sandwiches"
How “religion of peace” of them.
Christian names were already forbidden.
Disrespecting the prophet Jesus, eh? Tsk, tsk.
So, naming your kid “carpet” is strictly taboo?
Arabic names are not solely Islamic names. First of all, the Arabic language was around 400 years before Islam, and second, you will find Christian Arabs with names like Wadi, Jalal, Tariq, Rasha...names that Muslims have as well.
Strictly Islamic names are ones like Muhammad, Abdullah (servent of Allah), and any of the names with Abdul plus the 99 qualities of Allah listed in the Koran (i.e. Abdul Aziz, Abdul Rahman, etc).
Christian Arabs and Muslim Arabs use different names for Jesus. Christians use Yasu, Muslims use ‘Isa.
Berbers are not strictly speaking Arabs; they were conquered by Arabs and have usually been treated as second-class citizens ever since.
Yes, I know. Berber languages are not even Semitic, like Arabic. What I was saying is that these Moroccans’ logic is wrong; just because you have an Arabic name does not mean you are Muslim.
These stupid Arabs think they can just move in and eliminate more than ten thousand years of history like they're a bunch of Viking overlords ~ I say phooey to the Arabs.
We will return to this later as we seek to foster a truly revolutionary identity among the Sa'ami/Berber/Indian people, and their various tribes and families.
Death to the oppressors and their running dog lackeys!
It’s really too complex to explain at the moment, but that was the first blow on behalf of “X-factor” nationalism. There will be more once the leaership principle is negotiated and established among the broad masses.
“meaningless names?”
I’d say ‘mohammed’ is pretty meaningless to me!
(See Freakonomics for the context....)
Traditional Berber names reflect their pre-Islamic past & it bothers the Muslims. Usually only rural Berbers have these pagan/Berber names. Urban Berbers feel that their Islamic names are a mark of sophistication.
There’s been a surge in Berber pride & hate toward Arabs lately, but I still encounter Moroccans who I realized were Berbers because of their tattoos or their parents’ tattoos - & when I said “oh so you are Amazigh?” they got uncomfortable, denied it, said they were just Arabs, & changed the subject. & they didn’t mean that they were Arabs in the context of native Arabic speakers, just that they were embarassed of being identified as Berbers at all.
I really do love Berbers though & they are worth supporting in their struggles. It’s not uncommon to hear pro-Jewish & pro-Israel feeling from these Berber activists.
They say that because many traditional Berber names are names of their pre-Islamic gods.
3Abdullah wasn’t an uncommon name for Arab Jews to have, although I personally haven’t met anyone my age with that name yet. In Israel most people have taken Hebrew names, except for one Hussayn I know. Older Jews have mentioned being born with names like 3Abdullah that they changed to Obadiah or anything else when trying to assimilate into Israeli society. In books about Arab Jews I always come across several 3Abdullahs, most famously 3Abdullah Sassoon who changed his name to Albert when he moved to England.
Here are some lists of names of Jews found in the Cairo geniza, there are women named Amat al-3Aziz, & also men named 3Abdul 3Aziz. I also see a Muhammad. I don’t know how I feel about that lol!
http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/Jewish/Cairo/cairo_women.html
http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/Jewish/Cairo/cairo_merchants.html
http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/Jewish/Cairo/cairo_men.html
In Lebanon, most of the Jews I knew had regular non-Islamic Arabic names, Hebrew names translated to Arabic, some French names as well. Just a small number of what would be taken to be Islamic names. Some examples of Lebanese Jews: Eli, Mansur, Nour, Nadim, Fu2ad, Amir, Amira, Ibrahim, Sleiman. My name & the names of my brothers are all Hebrew names in Arabic & until now people call me both names interchangeably.
Interesting...thanks!
And I just remembered that Abdullah was the name of Muhammad’s father, so obviously the name existed before Islam.
I have heard of Lebanese Maronites with the names Nuhad, Assi, Mansur, and Ziyad. There is a kid in my Arabic class whose grandparents are from Lebanon. His name is William, and he says Wihbi (with the “7” H) is Arabic for William. I know a Syrian Christian named Tamar; that name sounds Jewish to me.
I wonder what these Moroccans have to say about naming kids Fatima. Yes it’s an Arabic name but it’s also used in Portugal, after Our Lady of Fatima. So Christians have that name too!
“Moroccans in the Netherlands are not allowed to give their children any Berber names any more. Trouw newspaper reported yesterday.”
What is reported is not true at all. Moroccans can give their children amazigh or arabic names.
“The Moroccan government in Rabat sent all embassies and consulates abroad a list of banned name this week”
There is no list of banned names. The moroccan government did not send this week any list to any embassy or consulate abroad
“Christian names were already forbidden. “We forbid Berber names because they conflict with the identity and because they open the door to the spread of meaningless names,” said Idris Bajdi, a top official in Morocco, in the newspaper.”
There is no top official in Morocco named Idris Bajdi !!
Trouw newspaper must say truth not lies .
That’s strange, since the Moroccan consulate in Rotterdam has a site that point’s out there is a lost:
http://www.cgmrotterdam.nl/Diensten/Burgerlijkestand.html
“N.B.:
De lijst met voornamen in bijlage is slechts een vingerwijzing en is niet uitputtend.”
That means that there is a list with first names, however it states that these names are not binding.
Also here
http://www.depers.nl/binnenland/264089/Marokkaanse-naam-niet-verplicht.html
bothe the Dutch minister and a Moroccan minister confirm that there is a list.
And look what we found here, it is the actual list!
http://forums.marokko.nl/archive/index.php/t-1556003.html
And lookie here, some Dutch politicians and government people who also confirm this list:
http://www.haarlemsdagblad.nl/nieuws/regionaal/haarlemeo/article1742674.ece
http://www.maghrebmagazine.nl/2007/04/29/actie-tegen-marokkaanse-namenlijst/
And if it was not the truth, why would the Dutch government demand that the list will no longer be used:
http://www.binnenlandsbestuur.nl/nieuws/2009/01/kamer-wil-opnieuw-actie-tegen-namenlijst-marokko.106555.lynkx
But I also found some Moroccan government official saying there was a list but it is no longer valid:
http://allochtonen.web-log.nl/allochtonen/2009/02/abdou-menebhier.html
However, I found a woman who wanted to name her son Benjamin and the name was refused. So maybe the Moroccan government needs to be more clear about this subject.
I confirm that there was a list during past interior minister Driss Basri. Its aim was to stop Morocccans choosing names that have no relations with moroccan identity like foreign TV star names, etc. But as you probably suppose this list leads to lot of problems for names not in the list !
I confirm also that the new law for registering names (Etat civil) voted in 2003 is the only binding text. No exhaustive list is avaiable, because it is impossible to establish.
What the moroccan law said is that moroccan citizens have to choose for their children “moroccan” names that are not cities ou tributes names, that are not unethical. What is a moroccan name ? It is a name which takes its origins in moroccan history (amazigh, arabic, islamic, hassani, jew)
Somes examples
islamic : abdelouahed, salaheddine
arabic : zaynab, fouad
hassani : hajbouha
amazigh : numidia, massinisa, anir, juba, ...
jew : gad , simon
Morocco is proud of its diversity and the new law give rights to citizens if the office in charge of registering names (it belongs to communes - elected bodies - in Morocco) refuses to register the choosed name
First there is a national commission that gives a decision if according to the law the name is accepted or not, but this decision is adminitrative one and the citizen has the right to go to justice to defend its position.
We have also to know that during past five years on 3 millions births only 75 names were not accepted by the national commission and the majority are not moroccan names.
I confirm Benjamin is not a moroccan name according to the 2003 moroccan law. If a Moroccan want to register a child he has to respect the law criteria.
But I insist also on the fact that there is no list or any other text forbidding amazigh names just because amazigh is part of Moroccan identity.
So What is said in the newspaper is not true and The Moroccan official (Idris Bajdi) is unknown in Morocco. Finally this subject is not simple, it concerns identity and all officials (Moroccans or Dutch) have to take care of the way they communicate on this subject.
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