Posted on 09/30/2008 9:33:34 PM PDT by robertvance
Today is National Day in China. On this day, 49 years ago, Mao Zedong and the Communist Party of China founded the People's Republic of China with a ceremony at Tiananmen Square. For most Chinese people, however, this day is not about Chairman Mao nor is it about the triumph of the Communist Party. Today is a day of rest in China; this national holiday is an opportunity to travel or to spend time with friends. While the day may be politically charged in Beijing and some other big cities, most Chinese people that I know are not so interested in looking back 50 years in Chinese history...
(Excerpt) Read more at teachabroadchina.com ...
don’t bother
the poster is an apologist for the Chicoms
he sees what he wants to see (or what his Chinese handlers - who are appointed to be his “friends” - want him to see)
see example of his “newthought” on China
at, for instance: http://www.teachabroadchina.com/china-communist-communism-society-deng-xiaoping/
As you can see, coming out of America’s academic elite, you get to make up your own definition and meaning of terms like “communism” and “socialism”.
see example of his “newthought” on China
at, for instance: http://www.teachabroadchina.com/china-communist-communism-society-deng-xiaoping/
As you can see, coming out of America’s academic elite, you get to make up your own definition and meaning of terms like “communism” and “socialism”.
Interesting how opinions are formed, isn’t it? I went to the Robert Vance article and would have to say I agree with most of it.
OK, for those who believe they are experts on China, Chinese and such, I will call myself a comrade, communist sympathizer and such so you will not have to.
I do not deal with the government in my daily teaching and living experience here in Sichuan. What Mr. Vance says, however, is true in my “listening and interacting with the local Chinese” experience. But who am I? Just another one of those elites you are talking about, right? You do not agree with me so - give me one of your appropriate labels.
Come one, conservatives. We are supposed to be better than that. Here are statements that I challenge anyone on this forum or any forum on the internet to refute:
In its 4000 years of continuous civilization as a country, the common peasant of China today is better off than anytime during this 4000 years. The number of middle class in China far surpasses anything in its history.
Guess I really am a good little comrade, huh? Of course, I still request that my students search after truth no matter where that takes them. Most, if not all, have bought into this request. Have you?
Thanks for the link.
My Chinese handlers? Why don’t you take a look at some other articles that I have written that strongly criticize the Chinese government? You are a Chinese hater which is your right but I just because I write something positive now and then about the country of China does not mean that I am an apologist for the Chicoms.
I have never been apart of America’s elite, whatever that means unless attending a public university automatically makes me so. Why don’t you explain exactly what America’s elite means and how it applies to me?
The BBC article I linked to above.. you tell 'em they are lying. You're the expert. You got the proof not me. I just go by what I read in what appears to be reliable sources.
BTW, sources please proving that the BBC, et al are lying -- you are no doubt a nice honest person but I'd like to see the proof. I have always said, truth is more important than my ego. Thanks.
Never said I was an expert. I said, however, that I have lived in China for more than a year, have been married to a lovely Chinese wife for more than thirty years and have had a passion for all things Chinese since graduating from the Defense Language Institute in 1972.
I deal with students daily and the university staff. There are no government officials posted at every corner watching my every move. This is not a police state. The students here are given, even expected, to make their own way through the academic environment.
I find it rather ridiculous for people to bad mouth the government for the melamine thing yet not see the same thing that is happening in the US with the financial markets. Businesses are run by people. People are the cause of the problems. Greedy people make immoral decisions daily. The government’s job is to insure that these greedy people pay for their greed and deter others. The Chinese government does that quickly and without mercy.
Please do not quote BBC as one of your sources as I have long given up on it and refuse to accept it as a reliable source of anything. I have yet to meet a BBC reporter or any Western reporter near here or any other rural area I have visited. Most of the time, I am the first western these people have seen.
There are problems in China as there are in all countries. How would you like to be governing around 1.4 or so billion humans as an authoritarian with your word as the final say. It is not an easy job. The current Chinese government is made up of a bunch of pragmatic technocrats who have the biggest headache in the world. Couple this with their natural paranoia about power and . . . well, I am amazed that the whole place is not in complete turmoil.
I have not called any one a liar. I said - in my experience. I am just saying that we, as conservatives, need to get away from calling people names just because we have a different view. I told my students about the last time I got on here and was called a comrade. The gentleman’s comments were pretty ugly toward all things Chinese. If only he or you or anyone could be in the class with me for one session, your minds would be changed. These are just a bunch of university kids trying to figure out what is going on in the world. They are decent, hardworking moral kids who have very few thoughts about politics. Those who do think about politics . . . well, sometimes I have to calm them down and remind them where they are.
I was remiss in not stating explicitly.. It ain't the people! It's the Communist Party!
IMO, it's Deng's version of Lenin's New Economic Plan tricking our "useful idiots" into "free tradin'" away our intellectual property and technology -- either outright as a condition of access to "cheap labor" of by theft.
Every atrocity since Mao started shooting "landlords" was a contemporaneous event for me. I read in the newspapers and saw on that new fangled TV thing the "great leaps forward" -- landing mostly on the backs of millions of citizens killing them.
What is a "safe" source of information?
My comments are "ugly" but the comments are about the commies. No apologies.
Who said anything about the BBC lying? No one is claiming that life is heaven in the countryside in China. There are many challenges facing those peasants who have chosen to remain there.
Nonetheless, those would deny that China has made incredible progress in the last 30 years deny history and reality.
“In its 4000 years of continuous civilization as a country, the common peasant of China today is better off than anytime during this 4000 years. The number of middle class in China far surpasses anything in its history.”
Man cannot, ever cross the street, a big car is blocking his path. Another man comes and moves the big car out of the way. The first man is supposed to say thank you wonderful sir for doing what no one else ever did - move that big ugly car.
Well, the sad truth of the apologists of this myth is - yes apologists - that from 1949 until recently the man who so miraculously finally moved that car is the same man who placed it there in the first place and the system he used to place it there is still in place, still under his sole control.
So, forgive us for noticing that yes the privileges now granted are a big improvement, because fundamentally they are still privileges, not rights; the benefits of those privileges were experienced in Taiwan and Hong Kong, long before they were granted in Beijing, fully displaying that they were never unattainable without the dictators’ system in the first place; so therefore why should that system be praised for what was achievable long ago and without the monopoly control of those who control those privileges now? It shouldn’t.
Yes, it is “apologist” because it succumbs to the very nature of the hijacking of native nationalism of the Chinese people by the communists, to serve their ends, to serve their control and to convince the people that all they have was impossible without their dictators.
Sorry, it is apologist, regardless of your inability to help your Chinese friends face it - they never needed the dictatorship of the communists and they do not owe them for their current gains; they were due them long ago and would have arrived long ago, with concurrent rights, without the communists.
..uh I think he did.
inthaihill: "Please do not quote BBC as one of your sources as I have long given up on it and refuse to accept it as a reliable source of anything."
Yes, those who have been trained by our American academic elite - our colleges - have been trained to believe they have gained something and have something unattainable without that elite’s training - a superior understanding; superior to what can be obtained without that training.
But, you see, we have seen that smug elite attitude from you in the past here, in spite of the fact that all that training failed to ingrain in you the meaning and the importance, found in our government and society, between rights and privileges. It must be taught.
And, your elite American training has even made you ill prepared to demonstrate the meaning of the difference in those terms and their importance, to your Chinese acquaintances. Like them, the new “freedom” of the bountiful shopping experience looks more and more like “the west”, to you, every day.
Yea, “looks”.
What is your point of all of this? No one is praising the communist party least of all the people here. Where are you coming up with all of this? All I am pointing out is that things are better here than they were 30 years ago. Is it because of the great deeds of the Communists? No. It is because reform has been and is still taking place. The hope is that in the future, these ‘privileges’ will in fact be rights but people like you who hate everything about China aren’t even willing to give the people that chance. I believe that people such as yourself hope that China remains in its present state (or even goes back in history 30 years) so that you can continue to bash this country because you seem to find pleasure in doing so.
Do you think I need you to tell me that dictators were not necessary to bring about improvements in China? No. And Chinese people don’t need you to say it either because most recognize that some horrible mistakes have been made by the communists. Why don’t you come over here sometime and see for yourself what is going on. You won’t find too many people anymore bowing and praying to pictures of Chairman Mao. People know better now...
We almost got to mark yesterday as American Communist Day, sorry Nancy.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2094322/posts
“You are a Chinese hater”
Sorry, I love the Chinese people so much more than you that I will not pretend for them that their dictators were ever necessary to obtain what they have now. Nor will I pretend for them that what they have, even economically are rights, when, do due the nature of the rule they are under, they are but privileges granted, no more.
I understand the concept that you are presenting.
One slight little bitty problem which you and Lenin and whomever else wants to believe in this game overlooks daily - the rising expectations of the middle class. The larger the middle class the larger the expectations and the more the leadership will have to feed them to maintain power. Money in China, is like money everywhere and it equates to power. The government realized there can be no modernization without a viable middle class in a globalized and competitive world. I think they also realize that their power relates directly back to this middle class they needed to develop a modern country. I have read where there was some kind of deal made where the capitalists could do their thing and stay out of politics.
You seem to think that this middle class shares the same ideology as Lenin and others and will go along with the “games” you refer to. Maybe you figure that when the time comes these middle class business people will give up their hard-earned lifestyles in the name of communism and world conquest. Is there some indications that I have missed pointing to the concept of Chinese world domination?
As to your “it’s the communist party” comment, I do not party with that party. I teach students and students only and my experience comes from them and the interactions I am having among the populace in this very rural area of Sichuan.
Sources you ask? Bet I can interview some Chinese and come up with enough sources to cover anything you believe or do not believe about the Chinese. BBC has an agenda and sends journalist out to quantify that agenda. Read about it everyday concerning Iraq. Interview 50 soldiers and publish the three interviews that meet the required agenda.
I am sorry that I did not have enough money (as you must have had) to put myself through a private university where I could get a ‘proper’ conservative upbringing. Fortunately, I didn’t need one of those educations because I was already well grounded in conservatism long before I entered the university.
The only point that I have tried to make is that life IS better for the vast majority of Chinese people as compared to 30 years ago. Call them rights, call them priviliges, call them whatever you want, but things have changed here in China. I’m not giving credit to the Communist Party; I’m giving credit to the people. The people here are remarkable and so is this culture. We all hope that someday China can have what we have in America but if this is ever going to happen, more time is needed. Talk about elitist. People like you think everything about America is superior to China and won’t even give these great people a chance.
There have been no fundamental “reforms” in any basic principals, only a expansion of privileges granted by the sole source for granting them.
There will be no change from privileges to rights in the future unless the Chinese people understand the fundamental difference necessary in their application and the importance of that; and the granting of privileges by the party and the political education of the people is designed to both maintain party control and convince people that no such fundamental change is needed.
Your language even mimics the party line - “give the people a chance” - which subsumes the changes and the privileges granted by the dictators as if an act of “the people” when “the people” have had any free say so in it. For good or for ill, the past and the present are the product of the party, the only party in control and that is not “the Chinese people”.
The party’s form of dialogue, ingrained in the Chinese people by their education has been passed directly to you - the party IS “the people”; which, we know is not true.
I don’t hate “everything about China”; not in the least. I hate the dictators there if I hate anything at all; and I never refer to its work as the work of “the people”.
Far from hoping China remains in its present state, I hope they have fewer unlearned elite souls from whom to learn about what they have and what they do not have, so that they will have the intellectual means to be able to grasp control from the dictators; which apologizing for the dictators in any sense, to our personal Chinese friends, is like NOT telling your best friend that his wife is gorgeous and gracious, but you know she’s a whore.
And, unlike you, when I do go to China, a dozen or more times in the past year and many times a year for many years previous, I visit and work with Chinese friends who actually know what I say about their rulers is true and know I am not making that judgment as a reflection on “the Chinese people”.
An interesting fairy tale about the big car. Tell me about what life was like from the 1912 Wuhan revolution until the take over by the communists in 1949. How many big cars were moved and then a big thanks went out for moving these big cars? China has always had an authoritarian government. They are called “dynasties.” Were these dynasties democratic? Nope, don’t think so.
America is now 230 years old or so and still a working democracy (or republic). The Greeks never could put together a working democracy. Athenian democracy never worked. The Roman Republic lasted 450 years and then became an authoritarian government. China has a history of well over 4000 years of a working “authoritarian” governments. Does the reality of this information make me or anyone else an apologist for these authoritarian government?
China is what it is. Very few people here worship at the feet of Mao. Chinese are, if nothing else, very pragmatic in their lives. Will you, me or Robert Vance change the form of government on this forum or on the ground in China?
I am here because I choose to be here. This is my right as an American with all the hard-earned liberties I have been blessed with. I am a realist who sees things for what they really are and not because BBC or some other organization feeds me their agenda. I never called the BBC a liar on this issue, I simply said that they have been liars in the past or at best biased in their views. This, for me, qualifies them as an unreliable source.
I know and understand where you are coming from. I used to live in the same place not too long ago. The fictional big car you wrote about has been in that street since the beginning of time in China. It was not placed there by Mao, Chiang Kai-Shek, the Qing, Ming or Tang dynasties. The car was born there along with the land and the Mandate of Heaven. The car came with the country. That car also had its beginnings in the European feudal system of not so long ago. In fact, that car has been in the way of humanity throughout recorded history. You live in a country, one of only a handful of countries in the history of the world where there is no car in that street, never was and never will be. Unfortunately, you think that “no car in the street” is the norm when it is definitely not.
May God bless America and all the Americans who are walking around with no cars blocking their paths in pursuit of happiness!
I challenge you to give an example where I am apologizing for Chinese dictators. I could care less whether or not “give the people a chance” is a party line or not. The people in this country are the only ones who can change this country. I don’t know who you spend your time talking to but many of the people who are joining the communist party in China are doing so because they want to change it. They want to reform it. They want multiple political parties. They want elections. They want rights. They want all of those things.
I wish we could go back in time and see China develop under different leadership but that is simply not possible. The only way is forward and change is happening.
I thought Hu called it Socialism with Chinese Characteristics. I think the Party intends to be around directing things for a long time.
I understand your points about the middle class -- though compared to the population as a whole, their numbers are few. Will they have to overthrow the Party?
If there had not been a Tiananmen Square Massacre -- or if the Party cadre who sympathized with the protesters had not been purged and instead the ones who rolled the tanks had been purged, your anecdotal evidence would gladly be accepted.
Other than economic competition from private, free individual Americans what is America's threat to Red China? Why are they seeking military parity?
I believe you have succumbed to the “anti-western” myth that “the Chinese culture” alone accepts and sustains the current Chinese dictatorship, as if that culture, unlike most all cultures, is not subject to major change by major external influences. If that line of thinking about culture was correct, Europe would still be in a completely feudal system. It’s not.
And, the Chinese dictators may hijack native Chinese nationalism and Chinese cultural norms to subvert them to its purpose. That does not mean the dictatorship is, or ever was required to reflect a living (life equals change) Chinese culture or nationalism; and step outside the mainland government control in the rest of the living Chinese culture and you know the dictatorship was not a required expression of Chinese culture TODAY, any more than feudalism should still exist in Europe today.
Its an excuse used as a defense; it’s not an explanation of something intrinsically “Chinese”.
Like Mr. Vance, you seem to have absorbed the party’s inculcation into the mainland Chinese that “the people” means “the system run by party”, as if the two are inseparably one - which is what the party hopes to maintain. My Chinese friends there know that I am making no such association when we discuss the system run by their dictators and they do not take our ideas that challenge the dictators, and things as they are now, as a slight towards them - they are not in control.
The people are not the same as the party currently. The people do not have the control. We all know that. But we also know that that a young and fresh generation of new thinkers and ideas are rising up into the party. The old ‘cadre’ is dying off and there is new blood. As I mentioned before, there are hundreds of thousands of young people out there in China who want to join the Party in the hopes that they can make lasting change and reform.
Please do not read things into my posts that are not there. I am a realist and I simply gave you a realistic picture of what I think is going on in China. Did I say “wither away” or are those your terms? I did not say it. Did I say anything about yielding to capitalism? My comments were that the middle class capitalists are not going “to go easy into the night” if their lifestyles are taken away. The Lennin “game” may look good on paper, but humans do not act that way.
You can put lipstick on a pig syndrome here. HU can call it whatever he likes. It is still putting the production in the hands of the individual and not in the government. That is still capitalism. I had a student argue with me that it was socialism just because Hu said it. I kept referring to the lovely young lady in the front of the class as a dog even though she was a lady. Because I called her a dog, does that make her a dog was my question.
Things are never in a straight line when one deals with the human capacity. The Tianmanmen thing was a disaster for everyone concerned. Did they learn from it? Are they capable of repeating it? You have to ask someone with inside information into the government. I think they are but it would not be the PR disaster that Tiananmen was.
As to the threat from America thing, the Chinese have a long memory. The unequal treaties and the carving up of China by the West in the late 1800s are taught in their schools. The biggest problem I see is simply the lack of exposure to who we Americans are and what we stand for. I act like an American. I teach like an American. I represent American culture and values in everything I do. I even tell my students that once they walk into my room, they are, for all practical purposes, studying in America. I am only one person and my goal has always been to show that Americans are who we say we are - freedom loving people with no animosity toward anyone. I can’t change the government that these Chinese were dealt at the beginning of their lives. I can, however, change the perception of who Americans are and what Americans are not one student at a time.
I find it interesting that westerners always discount the Chinese middle class as a percentage of the population when dealing with economics. There is or shortly will be a larger middle class in China than the entire population of the United States. That means 300 million people able to buy products at a rate equal to or exceeding those buying products in the US. What does it matter what percentage of the population this number is? These are real people spending real money.
You said earlier,
“Your language even mimics the party line - “give the people a chance” - which subsumes the changes and the privileges granted by the dictators” which I took to mean you were suggesting it closely resembled the party line.
Joining the party is good for one purpose: moving up in the government if one chooses that path. It is no longer so important for business. One of the largest English schools in my area is owned by a friend of mine who is a member of another political party. I once had dinner with him and the mayor of the city while they talked about land for a new school. He has a great relationship with the government.
You are claiming to know what limits these reformers have in terms of allowing opposition. Who can tell the future? Certainly not I but conversations that I have had with people who are disenchanted with the party suggest that change can come from within once the new generation is able to gain some foothold in the government.
I still don’t understand why you refuse to give the Chinese people some credit during the past 30 years. They have held in there through the bad and the good and many have worked extremely hard to improve their lives...
IMHO, you continue to talk nonsense. Is it possible for me and for Mr. Vance to be operating outside the limits you seem to want to place on us. Anti-western myth, you say. Chinese have always been a people who respected authority even though they had no invested reason to respect said authority. When that authority did not do its job and abused too many of the people (read peasantry), rebellions took place. The Taiping rebellion comes to mind as one of the most recent “age-old” systems of respect.
Do you believe that the majority of the Chinese people respect the authority that is now headquartered in Beijing? If your answer is no, then you have no idea what you are talking about. As long as China is moving forward, they have the respect of the people. Are you thus trying to tell me that there was not great nation pride in the Olympics that was a direct result of this same authoritarian government?
IMHO again, I see absolutely no difference between the many dynasties of the past and the authoritarian government today. The leaders in the past and in the present both realize the meaning of getting 1.4 billion people upset with their decisions. Mandate of Heaven is alive and well in Beijing and as long as the leaders cater to the expectations of the Chinese people enmasse, they will continue to remain in power.
Your accusations of me and Mr. Vance somehow being spokespeople for the government is not exactly the smartest thing you have stated. I know absolutely no one in the government in Beijing nor do I know anyone in the government here in the province.
As to Chinese culture and a “required expression” concept, well you make no sense to me whatsoever. Maybe you can define what you think Chinese culture is inside the mainland and somehow relate it theoretically to what Chinese culture is outside the mainland and then come up with a synthesis and say VOILA - Chinese culture.
Your words I read but, being less than sophisticated a person, they make absolutely no sense. Hijacking native Chinese nationalism and cutlural norms to subvert them to its purpose is simply ridiculous as if the authoritarians are not themselves Chinese but aliens from a distant shore. The leaders in Beijing share the same cultural norms and nationalism as the Chinese on the farms and in the streets. What the heck are you trying to say? You sound like some philosophy major writing about the third conjugation of the hitpael in the Hebrew language and how it relates to the universe.
Simply stated, I am here writing about practical things I have seen and trying to relate these things to comments I read about China. You are free to disagree. I do not know Mr. Vance. Never met him and would not know him from you or anyone else. We both live in China. We both are conservatives. I am a retired military officer with as much or more background in international affairs than most. Seems rather strange that we have come up with the same conclusions from living and working in China.
Why are you attacking us? Why do you believe we have suddenly become the “hated communist enemies of America” simply for expressing our views based on our experiences? What exactly are you attempting to do with your comments and gobbledy-gook nonsense about being “absorbed the party’s inculcation.” Request that you write in a language that us poor dumb backward boys from Oklahoma can understand. What exactly is your problem with me living and working in China and expressing my views about the students and the situations I have encountered?
Where do you come off thinking that just because you are free to express your views, that no one is free to disagree with them. Me thinks you have been kowtowing to authority too long.
And maybe your views, even about things like the Olympics, are not flavored by the views of a few of my Chinese friends who were literally barricaded in their Beijing neighborhood most of the time, unable to even get to work, so that their numbers, would not stifle the carefully designed plans for all the tourists; much less add to the security issue of which nationals were talking to which tourists; or two whole families I know who were “volunteered” to go sit in the stands of some poorly attended venues so that they would not appear so poorly attended. These pretenses of unity, in thousands of ways across the land, continue to fray the charade that the “mandate” you speak of is a mandate at all.
Once again, you make no sense. Your disagreements are interesting if not a little silly. I did not call you a lacky for anyone (surprised you did not use the term “running dog lacky :-). I did not say anything about kowtowing to some authority. You did not answer my questions concerning why you feel that I am such an evil and dispicable person for expressing MY views about China and the Chinese.
“Where do you come off” is an interesting phrase insinuating that I felt you were not free to disagree with me. Please disagree with me all you want. It would show a little more courtesy, however, if you would address the questions that I posed to you so I can better understand why you are so upset with my inputs. Accusing me of being anti-Western is not a disagreement, this is an attack. Me thinks you have been impressed with your own authority for too long.
There are over 12 million residents in and around Chengdu. There are around 31 million residents in the Chongqing area. Leshan has around 4 million. Now add them up and you get 47 million in these three areas that I have visited a few times. Like BBC you go interview these 47 million people and none were barricaded in their houses during the Olympics. Read that carefully - NONE. You tell me that a few of your friends were barricaded in their Beijing neighborhoods. How many? I heard the same thing so I have no doubt that many people were treated this way. Not enough, however, to invoke the Mandate of Heaven against the government.
Likewise, how many TV sets were voluntarily tuned to the Olympics during that period? Did the government go into the homes and force people to watch the Olympics?
You, like the BBC, have certain concepts you believe to be true and you use selected interviews or facts to justify your belief system. I certainly do not disagree with the evil of what happened but, once again, China has never had any other type of government. This is realism and does not mean I condone what happened.
Again, why are you so quick to try to force your belief system on me and if I do not go along you call me a lacky or a spokesperson for the government. The Chinese entrepreneurial spirit was unleashed and the results have been astounding. Chiang Kai Shek did not unleash this spirit until he got to Taiwan. The elites in the dynasties did not unleash this spirit during their reigns. Like all elites their goals have been consistent - stay in power.
Years go by and nothing has changed. The idea is always to stay in power. You are trying to tell me that the current government did not mandate private ownership and capitalism. If not them, who? This has never been a “right” in China in its long history. I call it the Mandate working to keep themselves in power and tapping into the natural laws of economics under which we all work and live.
A realistic look at what is happening does not make me anything other than an American seeing and recording what is happening. Has nothing to do with politics.
.. and I wanted to thank you for representing the best of America as I was sure that you did. Now I know that you do.
Thanks again.
And by extension, he knows his friends and their 'party' friends (definitely a different meaning there) will be reading his report. I would imagine not all of his friends are 'handlers' because they just wanna be - all the more reason to write up a nice report.
Not to mention the crime of conceiving more than one child. Well the MSM shows even the peasants taking the day off. If it’s anything like other communist dictatorships (even with it’s new capitalist twist), and we know it is, workers are expected to take the day off and best be seen celebrating.
I hope you're right.
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