Posted on 09/28/2008 6:46:20 PM PDT by MassRepublicanFlyersFan
In London's historic "Inns of Court", barristers practise law in the shadow of the distinctive medieval Temple Church. But does English law really owe a debt to Muslim law?
For some scholars, a historical connection to Islam is a "missing link" that explains why English common law is so different from classical Roman legal systems that hold sway across much of the rest of Europe.
It's a controversial idea. Common law has inspired legal systems across the world. What's more, calls for the UK to accommodate Islamic Sharia law have caused public outcry.
(Excerpt) Read more at news.bbc.co.uk ...
Lord give me strength
Chip, chip, chip goes the English way of life.
This is about as plausible as saying the U.S. Constitution was based on the Iriquois Confederacy. Some people can’t see the forest for the trees.
Certainly, the Normans had contact with Muslims. But what about the myriad other European cultures who had contact with the East? Why didn’t they adopt common law?
By the way, sharia is ALWAYS said to be based primarily on the Koran. English common law is based primarily on the decisions of individual judges; they have no Koran to guide them, like our judges have the Constitution to guide them.
No . Furthermore as of tomorrow , I am done with Arabic numerals too . It is Mayan base 20 system for me , starting , uh , I have to look up how to write 8:00 am in Mayan .
Is English law related to Muslim law?
It will be, quite soon...
“Common law has inspired legal systems across the world”
Exactly. Lots of things have inspired other things around the world. Common law inspired us over here in the U.S. Does that mean judges should be free to ignore the Constitution and make up their own minds? No! The same goes for officially recognizing sharia.
“There are clear parallels between Islamic legal history and English law, but unless new historical evidence comes to light, the link remains unproven.”
And no doubt, that fact pains to no end the guilt-ridden Brits who work so hard to find more reasons to feel guilty and ashamed of their heritage, and then pass it on to the youth of Britain.
I guess they’ll just have to become more creative and work even harder.
ANYbody who has read their history with attention knows that the origins of the English common-law are in Anglo-Saxon and Scandanavian custom. All you have to do is read the many surviving Anglo-Saxon and Norse documents.
What's more, a Muslim diplomat named Ahmad ibn Fadlan visited the north in the 10th century and wrote about the old Viking/Scandinavian customs and practices. He was the first Islamic traveller in the area and he was completely nonplussed by their customs and laws, which he described in detail.
So nope, no influence. Just the dogs trying to cringe before their masters.
I cannot help but note one of the revered ancestors, Rene of Anjou (one of Rober I's descendants), had two wives and three concubines. His grandchildren and great-grandchildren headed up both sides in the French "Religious Wars", and brought Protestantism to fruition in the United Kingdom while stiffening Catholicism in Southern Europe.
I would imagine that the Angevenians had some influence on ALL legal systems of their day.
No.
In many ways this ‘theory’ or better, speculation, either begs the question of origins or is circular in reasoning. Islam from where? From Arabia? From the dhimmiized populations of Spain or North Africa? The point is that Islam in and of itself had very few original ideas. It conquered huge populations of already settled civilizations, Christian, Jewish, Zorastrian, Hindu, Greek, etc. and it is THOSE populations which may have helped in the origin of ideas. Many of those peoples as dhimmi retained, under suppression or oppression, their ideas which may have become part of non-Islamic states and thought. This final comment probably says it all:
“There are clear parallels between Islamic legal history and English law, but unless new historical evidence comes to light, the link remains unproven.”
This is to be expected if dhimmis continued to function in Islamic states and provide the ideas falsely ascribed to Islam itself.
And who were the Angevenians? They are a rarity of modern times because they produce -0- Google links:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Angevenians
At that moment the Seljuk Turks popped up, began conquering the Middle East, and whatever other input the Arabs might have been prepared to make to the Sharia was suppressed for the next 1003 years.
UK was ruled by kings sitting in Anjou ~ you knew that, right?
Since the Arabs copied (or maybe stole) the concept from the Hindus, perhaps we can rename them Hindu numerals, instead of eliminating them.
The relationship is that they are both called “law”, but one really isn’t.
“UK was ruled by kings sitting in Anjou ~ you knew that, right?”
My main exposure to the various English and British historical periods was from Churchill’s “History of the English Speaking Peoples.” What he referred to as the House of Plantagenet seems to be what you call the Angevenians.
I am opposed to that.
And they all stole them from Ice Age Chinese.
“I am opposed to that.”
Being American, and being only generally familiar with that history, I’m happy to leave that decision to the Brits, along with decisions about the Elgin Marbles. But maybe they still have room in Westminster Abbey for more former monarchs.
Someone at the BBC got his turban wound a little too tight.
Someone at the BBC got his turban wound a little too tight.
In fact, I'm pretty sure my connections are better than Queen Elizabeth's.
“The problem is that MOST Brits have no blood ties at all with the kings buried in Anjou while I do.
In fact, I’m pretty sure my connections are better than Queen Elizabeth’s.”
My family traces to England, and is believed to have come over from Normandy with William the Conqueror, and then left for Virginia around 1610. It does seem they’d leave the kings who actually lived and ruled from Anjou where they are buried.
The whole idea was ridiculous.
Hmm, well there’s no one fewer of those rarities, your comment already has two links (at 11:19). :O)
“your comment already has two links (at 11:19). :O)”
Lol, I wondered if Google picked up FR. They avoid some pretty active sites and some think it’s political.
Message to the Brits.
Stop making excuses for Sharia and make all aspects of it illegal. If Muslims do not like it they can leave. If they riot send in the military.
“The Normans had much more than “contact” with the Middle East, they conquered Moslem Sicily in the 11th century”
Plenty of Muslim territory was conquered by Europeans during the Crusde. Of course, not all of them were tolerant. Anyway, historians have long documented that Europe learned an awful lot from Islamic culture, both from occupying their territory and through trade. We’re talking medicine, chemistry, physics, philosophy, mathematics, astronomy, navigation, etc. I, for one, am convinced that gothic architecture owes a lot to the Muslims.
However, it is hard for me to swallow that something as specific as common law, which grew into a system only after centuries of development, owes much to sharia law. Or at least, I doubt it owes anything more to shaira law than it does to Roman or Hebrew law, for instance. If Muslims had such a clear impact upon the law in England, how come it didn’t travel elswhere in the continent? I mean, if Islamic art, science and philosophy influenced everyone, how come their law only caught the eye of England.
“Rene of Anjou (one of Rober I’s descendants), had two wives and three concubines. His grandchildren and great-grandchildren headed up both sides in the French “Religious Wars”, and brought Protestantism to fruition in the United Kingdom while stiffening Catholicism in Southern Europe.”
Was Henry VIII one of his descendents?
Guy was definitely wellplaced eh?!
He was also Jeanne d'Arc's political sponsor at the French Court and later in life fought a war against Padua to acquire Leonardo d'Vinci to take him to France for placement in a university the then King of France had just built.
Before retiring to Provence Rene employed at one time or the other Christopher Columbus and his brother.
Concerning the question of why Sharia principles (use of court cases as antecedents to practical common law) didn't penetrate throughout Europe, that's simple ~ Napoleon Bonaparte changed all of Europe (except England) over to statutory law. They never went back.
Napoleon's actions enabled European states to work from a common base of statutes thereby improving commerce and comity. (This system fell apart in the Twentieth Century from about 1929 to 1945 when, under American and Russian occupation, the Europeans began to get their act together again).
And that is, in fact, entirely too brief.
Still, Western European law, in general, right up to 1798 or so, wasn't terribly different from Sharia law ~ and I think if you dig into it enough you might find folks burning witches, dunking drunks and pushing brick walls over on homosexuals.
Sharia law was simply a collection of decisions based on prior cases AND reference to the Koran and Hadiths. Why the mullahs decided they could no longer use the Koran as a touchstone to legal matters is a great mystery.
Following up on that the English need to write a statute that provides imprisonment, fine, torture and/or death for those who use the 10th Century Sharia Code in any decision.
End of story.
Agreed, Sharia needs to be made illegal there.
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