Posted on 08/22/2008 8:46:44 PM PDT by neverdem
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Ping
Thanks for the link!
Ping for later...
A-10s to take care of the ground stuff, F-22s to take care of the quick air response.
The subs to take care Russia.
Help me out. What were his earlier aggression(s)?
How do we get them there? Newly minted Islamist Turkey was purchsed withn Iranian natural gas, threats from Moscow, and its own hatred of America in the region.
That is above my pay grade. I am a civilian.
It was just a dream.
The neoconservatives
The idea of extending NATO was sound and still achievable. Half of Georgia might still be saved and a ring extending up to the Baltics can be established.
The paleoconservatives
They are wrong that Putin is only protecting his rightful national interests. He is protecting the natural interests of an autocrat and that is by definition illegitimate and not "rightful". He is however protecting his "perceived" national interests. Georgia did not "deserve" the Russian invasion. That is an outrageous and indefensible observation. The paleos are correct that we should cut a deal with Putin but on the basis of strength and with Putin dealing to protect his cash flow. The paleos are absolutely correct in saying that this is a question of America's national security interest and the national security interests of Israel are irrelevant.
The realists
They are right in insisting that we define our national interest. Emotional reaction is very, very dangerous. It might well be possible to establish a ring around Russia which includes half of Georgia. The extension of Western influence via NATO was done because an event such as this was prudently feared. Russia is only humiliated because it chooses to be an autocracy rather than a democracy. The world need not accommodate itself to that choice except at the point of defeating its own national interests. The role of honor in determining international policy should be admitted only very carefully and certainly not when your allies (the Europeans) regard acting out of honor to be cowboy diplomacy. If your allies deal only in their own self-interest without reference to honor, they will play your commitment to honor quite cynically. It is quite good advice to refrain from issuing promises that you cannot keep, especially if those promises include commitments from your NATO allies which you cannot enforce.
The left wing
No comment necessary here except to observe that this is the triumph of moral relativism perfected in The Frankfurt School. Moral relativism on Parade.
The liberal mainstream
Watered-down moral relativism. We can learn very little from NATO's involvement in Afghanistan except to provide a sober realization that European contributions to multilateral efforts will always be a day late and a dollar short. The liberal reaction of involving the United Nations etc. is a transparent effort to disguise capitulation. Moral relativism in disguise.
The Europeans
The Europeans have a real and substantial interest in the continued supply of gas and oil from Russia. That being said, the Europeans should recognize that the Russians have perhaps an even greater need to supply that oil and gas. The European politicians will find a way to do nothing by placing the blame on the United States and it does not matter whether George Bush is in office or Barak Obama. The Americans must contrive ways to make the Europeans choose our side. A very, very difficult undertaking.
The rest of America
America now knows the way it saw the world was all wrong. America is awakening to the danger not only of Russia but of an expansionist Russia in league with other oil-producing countries such as Iran and Venezuela. America is becoming alert to the fact that Russia is willing to play the nuclear card with Islamo fascists. America is awakening to the reality that there will not be meaningful cooperation with Russia concerning Iran. America is coming to the conclusion that it must identify and act in its national self interests with a very hardheaded and, if need be, ruthless determination.(he said with his fingers crossed and his head bowed in an attitude of prayer).
Agreed, Putin has not used large scale military aggression before but he has been engineering a conflict with the west for some years.
Hanson could be referring to Russia’s deployment of mobile the Topol-M, and the decision to MIRV Topol-M in 2006. The US is no longer deploying new offensive nuclear systems.
Then again, he could be referring to the assassination of Litvinenko in London using radioactive materials in November of 2006.
Putin has threatened aggression in the past against any NATO country hosting US BMD systems and he attempted to assassinate against Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko. If I were Mr. Saakashvili I wouldn’t be riding in any aircraft, I’d have myself a food taster and I’d have two guys watching my back whenever I had to take a leak (Caracala decido est).
I think when the history of Cold War II is written historians will say that it started in the fall of 2006.
I’m with the Realists. About the only thing we can do for Georgia now is to treat their wounds. Their economy and infrastructure have been obliterated by the Russians, and it seems like they’re going to maintain enough of a presence to make sure Georgia can’t rebuild in a timely manner. Sending humanitarian convoys is a good move that forces their hand to divest from Georgia proper somewhat, but the Russians know that we can’t afford a direct confrontation politically, logistically and financially.
bttt
bttt
IABUSF: Your #11 is very good except that Pooty the Poisoner was engineering conflict with the West at least back as far as 1998.
Please see: http://www.washtimes.com/news/2004/oct/29/20041029-110322-3343r/
Excellent report on how Pooty had Russian generals in Iraq organizing Saddam’s side of the war (nice job there BTW, Russia—very intimidating NOT), hauling away the WsMD (including Russian weapons) when it became evident after a week or two that the Russian run war was a disaster. How humiliating it must have been for little Pooty. A smarter man would want to avoid a rerun.
Also: “The generals had made some 20 visits to Iraq in the past five or six years [BEFORE 2003] and appeared to be playing a role in preparing the Iraqi military for conflict, the newspaper stated.”
That’s one of HIS earlier aggressions.
Pooty’s been hooked up with Iran helping them kill our soldiers in Iraq and he’s trying soooo hard to keep his Islamofascist allies safe until they can nuke us or our allies. I hope it’s because he knows he can’t afford to do so. That’s good because it shows some degree of contact with reality—possibly even sanity.
I think it’s important for FReepers to realize that the Vlad trolls on FR have two purposes: One is to propagandize, attempt to intimidate, pretend to be one of us reinforcing the “better red than dead” attitude that actually very few here share.
The second, and maybe more important function, is to evaluate the strength or weakness of ordinary American citizens’ reaction to this craven invasion: are we intimidated? how many people? how cowed are we?
Will we support strong action by the American military against the Russian invaders?
I think we should let them know that we support strong action against the invaders a lot more than we do just words.
Nobody sane wants a nuclear war, but nobody with even a small crumb of courage wants to grovel and cave because one is threatened. If pooty is insane, there will be a nuclear war no matter what we do (unless the Russian people force a regime change in Russia).
The more we cave, the weaker we look, the worse and more often the atrocities come and the more likely we end up nuclear in the end—not by our INSTIGATION. The sooner Pooty and pals understand they can’t get away with it, the sooner their crap stops and the better for the whole world including Russia.
One more question in my mind: will the trolls have the guts to tell their handlers the truth about Americans or will they tell them what they want to hear.
Please see the link in my #15 re: documentation of Russia’s working in collaboration with Islamofascists and directly agains the USA going back to at least 1998. Also my take on the two functions of Vlad trolls on FR.
Talk is cheap my friend. North Korea hijacked one of our naval ships on the high seas and I understand still have it on display. Iran sacked our embassy and all we did was talk . Sometimes it's the right strategy.
But now we have CRITICAL problems on our border, Lebanon, Iraq, Afghanistan, and the destroy democracy America Democrat party in DC. And you want to risk war with Russia over a banana Republic border dispute? Crazy!!
I think it’s important for FReepers to realize that the Vlad trolls on FR have two purposes:
The neocons on this site have four, demonise Russia no matter what, smear Christianity and American culture, wind up owning all the money in the world, and hang on to Israel. I go along with the last one, despite the ingratitude.
You seem to get off on the Pootie word. Like you're playing the race card. I'm not impressed or amused.
Its frighting to think of BO as the leader of the free world. Weakness whether its real or perceived will lead to war.
Please take the time to watch the video at this link.
I read the article and good for Estonia and the progress they are making. Two different places, don't know enough about it to discuss a comparison. Can you make a specific point.
He grew up under the USSR. He makes some excellent comments at the end of his speech.
"Our life is empty, meaningless without liberty. Liberty is what gives us the oxygen, raises our spirit."
He thanks Milton Friedman for supporting liberty in the world.
"When we all together move in this direction, we can really make this world a better place."
And he wrote this, too - link here
"They also provide crucial access for U.S. and allied anti-terror operations from NATO Europe into the Greater Middle East. In both of these roles, Georgia and Azerbaijan can only function as a tandem or not at all; they stand or fall together. Their success would also enable Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan -- where most of the Caspian energy reserves are located -- to export oil and gas to Europe directly, rather than via Russia; and that in turn would help reduce Russia's looming, risk-fraught energy leverage on the European Union. In sum, the stakes are high in securing Georgia and Azerbaijan as functional nations linked to the Euro-Atlantic system."
"For this vision to succeed, the conflicts that have remained “frozen” for almost a decade must be resolved. The status quo in Nagorno-Karabakh, Abkhazia and South Ossetia leads to human suffering and enormous loss of human potential, while thwarting economic development. Radical Islamist or terrorist groups that want to transfer militants, drugs, arms, and weapons of mass destruction into Europe could also penetrate these gray zones."
South Ossetia is a major smuggling and arms/terrorist zone.
We can pretty much make book on it. OTOH McCain (my next to last choice from the primaries) is NOT sounding weak at all and I think we will benefit on this election from Pooty's mistake. He almost ensured that BO will never be the leader of the free world. BO was already crumbling, but this gangster invasion seals his fate IMO.
"Our life is empty, meaningless without liberty. Liberty is what gives us the oxygen, raises our spirit."
I bet Russians feel the same way since freedom and capitalism is setting in.
He thanks Milton Friedman for supporting liberty in the world.
So does most except liberals.
"When we all together move in this direction, we can really make this world a better place."
That's why IMO Russia has moved and is moving in that direction but apparently doesn't want to wind up as a vassal of the old colonizing greedy EU. On balance Putin serves his country as much or more in this respect as does Saakashvili for his. It's a tossup, why alienate the more important country that will be needed now and in the future in the war against Islamists.
Two pathetically weak Democrat presidents did NOT have the right strategy to just talk when action was required: the awful Johnson with the Pueblo Incident and the universally recognized worst president ever Jimmy Carter cringing before the Islamic thugs in Iran.
In fact we would NOT be facing Islamoterrorism today without the perfidy, cowardly weakness, and deep stupidity of Carter.
Ironically one of the very real problems you accurately describe as “the destroy democracy America Democrat party in DC” has been all but solved by Putin’s foolishness. Putin has pretty much finished off any of BHO’s chances of victory. (See I call him by his right name when he does something good.)
We do have critical problems on our border, largely because of globalist goo-goos in both parties. We stopped them last year and we’ll probably have to do it again under McCain’s presidency. We can do it.
Iraq is all but done and Rice has been talking to them about winding it up. Afghanistan is still a problem, but we’re doing a lot better than the Taliban is. Lebanon will be solved when Syria and Iran are taken care of, probably by Israel and maybe Israel and us. In any case Lebanon, Syria and Iran are all Russian aggravated problems. It’s possible there may be a coordinated solution...
Neocons were not demonizing Russia. Russia demonized herself and will regret it. I don’t get your complaint that neocons smear Christianity and American culture, more the opposite.
I understand your somewhat off-base attack on neocons hanging on to Israel. When certain groups call someone a neocon they mean Jooooo as in “Kill Jooooos”. According to your statement you would NOT be part of that wretched group and thanks for that.
I would say that, rather than neocons, Poooty and his KGB/mafiya/oligarch thugs are the ones trying to get all the money in the world. They have certainly stolen 10’s of billions already from the Russian people. Maybe 100’s of billions. Pooooooty is reputed to have 40 Billion salted away.
I like to use the Pooooooty word because I think Putin the Poisoner has earned a huge amount of contempt, revulsion, and ridicule. He deserves it. I don’t understand where it has any kind of racial implication. That sounds more like an Obama response. If you don’t like something someone says, call them a racist. I don’t care if you are impressed or amused. I do think it’s important that you make an accurate report on the strength of the American public.
BTW if you really live in the US, next time you’re in the super market, drug store, convenience store, discount store, doctors, dentists, dry cleaners, etc., sound out the ordinary citizen on what Russia is doing. You may find the replies significantly more heated than here where people are writing them down. That makes some people nervous.
Russia under Putin is no help in the war against Islamists because he has ALLIED himself with them. Saddam before, now Iran, Syria...
South Ossetia is a major smuggling and arms/terrorist zone b>
South Ossetia was a major smuggling and arms/terrorist zone into Russia.Since the attack in Beslan ( probably through South Ossetia),it seems the Russians had to plug the route through South Ossetia and clear it of rabble.
Is there any truth that Georgia was harboring Chechyn terrorists?
Why is 1/2 of the city of, North and South Ossetia, populated by Russians, divided by a tunnel, desired by the Georgians to the point of spilling blood and risking cold and hot war?
I would agree that it looks like South Ossetia is full of rabble. If the Russians had to plug that route to protect themselves, they could have blown the stinkin' tunnel. Instead they used it to invade Georgia.
Is there any truth that Georgia was harboring Chechyn terrorists?
It's bad enough when you insult your reader's intelligence with the first set of statements, but to ask if Georgia was harboring Chechen terrorists goes way beyond insult.
You know damn well that Pooooty sent Chechen "irregulars" into Georgia. You know damn well that he picked them because of their vicious brutality. They raped, stole, burned and murdered Georgians.
Yes, your precious Pooty Poot works WITH the very same scum who raped, tortured, and butchered the helpless little school children at Beslan. We cared about that; he did NOT. If he did he wouldn't work with them.
True, Carter started it all by dumping a monarchy for a radical theocracy.
With a hem hawing Barry, Putin will settle down and work, I hope, toward achieving a better life for his people. With linage McCain he'll be on edge. We have a dilemma.
The fence? We can do it, but McCain will weasel out if elected. Not that I blame him. IMO we need an accommodation. There are just too many good hard working Mexicans in this country.
Lebanon, Syria, Iran.. I agree.
I like to use the Pooooooty word because I think Putin the Poisoner has earned a huge amount of contempt, revulsion, and ridicule.
Let's be honest. Because Putin is Russian, and successful, he has become Vlad the Impaler, Pootie and now the poisoner. And then they throw in the whole country referring to them as a whole, the Russians. Goebels couldn't do better.
but to ask if Georgia was harboring Chechen terrorists goes way beyond insult.
Was it Yelsin then Putin, that claimed during the two wars in Chechyn that the terrorists were operating in part from some valley in Georgia, where they couldn't be reached ?
You know damn well that Pooooty sent Chechen "irregulars" into Georgia
I know no such thing, neither do you. Until shown otherwise, I treat that as a 'Goebels' whopper. But then, it's the old 'race card' you're playing. Calling people names and making rediculous accusations is showing lack of substance.
Beslan was a few years ago. These two sources are from 2008.
In other words, few of them worked, if any, at anything legal, and hey, Russia was willing to pay them just to be there as Russian citizens. The good life.
"This led Yulia Latynina, a columnist for "Novaya gazeta" and a host on Ekho Moskvyto, to observe "South Ossetia is not a territory, not a country, not a regime. It is a joint venture of siloviki generals and Ossetian bandits for making money in a conflict with Georgia..."
Which leads to the next question, who are the "sleeper trolls"? In the past trolls have been people who have registered and then pitched filth and tried to sew dissension within the community.
Maybe I'm being paranoid but I'm seeing people who have been here for years (mostly without "about" pages BTW) who are turning out to be apologists for the Russians. This is a new phenomenon and it will be interesting to see how it is dealt with in the FR community.
There was one who was so outrageous he/she/it did get a ZOT. I checked its sign up date which turned out to be several years ago. Then I checked "in the forum" and saw that it had posted only on Russian threads since the invasion and had not posted before that for about 2 years.
Later I saw reports by other FReepers (sorry I don't remember who) who had been making checks and they said there were lots of sign-ups from '02, '04 etc. who had signed on and lain dormant until the Russian invasion.
To my mind this is pretty good evidence that Vladdie was planning this or something similar for a long, long time and knew he'd need propagandists sometime down the road.
We're certainly inundated with them and your observation is on the money: In the past trolls have been people who have registered and then pitched filth and tried to sew dissension within the community.
You could usually tell by the sign up date--just in time to roil the waters on a particular current subject. Easy to peg and reject.
The Vlad trolls are here with a long term purpose and single minded goals, although some of the brighter ones do chat about other subjects and ingratiate themselves on subjects that are benign. Eventually though the mask slips and reveals the bestial invader...
Or they are users who don’t want to say inflammatory things under their known IDs, so as to avoid people looking up all their old comments and following them around for the rest of their FR lives.
Or, users who are of Russian heritage, whose loyalties lie with one faction they wouldn’t defend under a known ID.
Etc. Etc.
Everything isn’t always a conspiracy.
Or, users who are of Russian heritage, whose loyalties lie with one faction they wouldn’t defend under a known ID.
To address your point about "conspiracies". Let's say you or I want to support an unpopular view and are genuinely afraid of cyber stalkers. I'd sign up and blast away. I wouldn't sign up and post nothing for two years, particularly if the incident I was going to post about hadn't happened yet.
You may not beleive me but the majority of Russians support actions of goverment in S.Osetia and Abkhazia. That is because Goergian troops attacked our peacekeepers which is part of Russian army and civilians who are Russian citizens.
No Country will allow to kill her soldiers and citizens. Any attack on them is the clearest casus belli. I do not understand why you so blind that do not see that.
What do you want? Russia gathers the corpses og her dead soldiers and citizens and back off? If she did that then next day no citizen of Russia will respect teh goverment, no small ethnicty of Russia will respect goverment. Even no Russia will respect himself.
So the clear aggression on our citizen must be answered. Russia had no choice.
Your hostility toward Russia will create the situation that the majority of Russians will be hostile to you. So as result Russia will oppose the west at any possible occasions. I do not think it will biring us to teh hot war but Cold war will be for sure if West does not relaize it is wrong.
PS If you not like the the dicord voices here on FR and like only one point of view you may ban me. But it will mean that so called freedom of speech of West is nothing.
What the f.. your soldiers and citizens were doing in South Ossetia to start with? Your peacekeepers, despite what you are being lied to, were never attacked and your troops advanced into Georgia helping mercenaries shooting at Georgian villages and peacekeepers, let alone the fact that the only sources for these mercenaries to get what they had was from your own government.
That's you problem! You think you can only respect by intimidating others, because that's the only thing you respect.
Oh, bring it on. You will recall then quickly how it was to be sitting in ramshackle apartments build by Khruschov not being able to get out of your country and see anything. And then your own people, just like they did in Soviet times, will recognize and understand that this is not something to suffer for.
And before preaching to someone about freedom of speech, why don’t you return NTV and TV6 to its owners, ==
Lasha theboth stations are in hands of its owners. GAzprom and RAO ES and its heirs. Thsoe statiosn were found byt huge credits of those business entities. Those money credits were not returned. So those enities just called thier properties back.
Dude, no one denied majority of Russians support what your fascist government is doing only because that is the only thing they hear on TV all owned and controlled by Kremlin.==
It is easy for you think that way. You cann’t apprehend that your cause could be wrong.
What the f.. your soldiers and citizens were doing in South Ossetia to start with? ==
Citizens were Osetians. Palce even called South OSETIA. So Osetians just lived in Osetia. What is wrong with it?
Lasha tell me honestly. Even if I admit for one the minute they were ther wrongfully as you state then how it will give rights to Georgians to attack them with Grads and kill non armed folk indiscriminantly? Any country will react if other military force attacks her citizens. It is casus belli you know.
And I think the article is not a bad discussion piece, describing the range of attitudes. I have not done a large survey myself, but I have talked with people about this outside of the interested, analytical, often opinionated types that discuss things on FR. At least as far as the average Americans I have spoken to are concerned - sitting in their living rooms - minding their own business - perhaps watching the Olympics; their reactions have been: “Now what?”
Someone else can take up the legal case on who fired first and all that. As far as I know, you weren’t there - so you don’t know what happened. ==
Even Georgians do not deny that they MRLSEd the sleeping Tskhinvall at night then send tanks in it. The photos of reckages of those tanks was all over the internet.
So you should not deny what they do not deny themselves.
It is a fact that Putin made the political decision - unprovoked - and announced it to the world - his intent is to make Russia a powerful adversary against the west once again.==
I think it is big mistake of West. West hypocricy well noted by Russians. And West must blame it self for that.
Russia simply defended her citizens against killing by foreign military force. Any westren country do same thing.
Are you suggesting Dorenko was also owned by GazProm?.. ==
No. But he wasn’t teh owner of NTV either. He is just the journalist who worked on ORT then NTV.
Today he works on radio Echo of Moscow. He owns no valuable share of each stations he worked.
I can coprehend anything - I am trained in doing it. Can you?!
Citizens were Osetians. Palce even called South OSETIA. So Osetians just lived in Osetia. What is wrong with it?===
The wrong is that they were not supposed to have Russian passports and when Russia granted those, at the very least they had to leave because they were violating VISA regime imposed by Russia in its turn. I am sure you know what illegal immigration means, right?
Any country has a right for self-defense! read UN charter, read anything you want! If they are shooting at us - and do not tell me that this was not the case, even your one sided media was reporting considerable shootings and military build-up by Ossetians in two weeks prior to August 8. Did not you read statement by Kulakhetov, head of Russian “peacekeepers” contingent that he cannot control Kokoity anymore (I think it was published on August 5, but I may be wrong with this date). You country's citizens were illegally present on the territory and additionally were shelling Georgian villages - what the hell do you expect would have happened?! Oh, and about civilians killed - there were numerous reports on Russian TV how they were moving all civilians out of Tskhinvali between August 1 and August 7! Your media was crying loud about killing of 2000 civilians, yet is investigating wrongly death of 33 civilians only! Do you know how many civilians were killed outside of conflict zone? or how much private property was destroyed in territories 100 of KM away from Tskhinvali.
Any western country does not put its citizens in conflict zones and arms them to fight against another sovereign state! Western countries take their citizens OUT of war zones. What you describe is what people like Hitler do!
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