The verdict is in...........as if there was a need for a trial...........
Posted on 08/11/2008 5:31:23 AM PDT by Red Badger
After batting down the hype over startups and DIYers claiming they could run a car on water, PM's senior automotive editor installs a hand-built HHO kit—only to find he was right the first time. Can bad chemistry keep the myth of the water car alive? More heavy testing in the PM garage will tell.
Water-powered cars continue to be the largest single topic taking over my in box—and the Comments section of this Web site. And it's not just my recent column on the truth about water-chugging prototypes. This trend has become an obsession with many backyard inventors, and some of them have become quite strident, insisting that if I knew anything at all about cars, I'd be embracing this technology. They say it could help change the world as we know it. They even say it could eliminate the energy crisis altogether. For this sentiment, I applaud them. And honestly, I hope it's all true.
Unfortunately, I have to indict their physics. The entire concept of running your car on water is based on bad science. The idea is to use electricity from the car's alternator to electrolyze water into HHO, a mixture of pure hydrogen and oxygen. This mix is fed into the intake air, where it is burned along with gasoline, thereby increasing your fuel economy anywhere from 15 to 100 percent—depending on which Web site you're visiting. Believe the hype, and those 1 to 2 liters of HHO streamed into the engine will double the fuel economy, clean the engine out, and maybe even grow hair. Plenty of these budget sites even claim their devices are efficient enough for a version that would run a car entirely on water—no gasoline at all.
If this sounds like it's too good to be true, it is. And I've discussed it in this column too many times to go over again, so I won't. I've tested way too many bogus gas savers and miracle fuel-saving gadgets over the years to buy in to this one. So it's time to put up or shut up, and do what we do best around here—test drive, generate real-world numbers, and come up with realistic answers.
So, last month I received an electrolyzer, fabricated by my old Monster Garage partner, Steve Rumore at Avalanche Engineering out in Colorado. Steve cleverly designed the device into a steel toolbox, making it portable—just the ticket for someone tinkering with HHO/water/hydrogen/Brown's Gaspowered conveyances. Steve isn't a gadget geek—his company fabricates championship off-road vehicles. But he was talked into making a couple of HHO units by one of his customers. And why not? The plans are all over the Internet, and the tech isn't very complicated. The unit consists of eight plastic bottles with stainless-steel electrodes, connected up in series—parallel to the vehicle's battery. The cells are filled with plain ol' water and a small amount of potassium hydroxide electrolyte to conduct electricity. A hose conveys the HHO output to the engine.
It took me a few days of puttering around in my shop to get the electrolyzer up and running. I'm using an HKS Camp 2 onboard computer, hooked into an LCD monitor that's suction-cupped to the windscreen, to check things like mass airflow, fuel-injector pulse width, battery voltage and, of course, fuel economy. The Camp 2 took a little debugging, but now I've got the whole science-fiction mess installed in one of our long-term test cars, complete with wires and hoses everywhere and a back-flash trap/flow meter bubbling away on the dash like Dr. Frankenstein's hookah. This fiendish device prevents any backfire-related explosion in the HHO line from propagating back into the electrolyzer. It also provides instant visual feedback of HHO delivery to the intake, as bubbles scurry from the bottom to the top of the water column. Yes, I have it mounted inside the car.
But guess what? My fuel economy is exactly the same, whether the HHO generator is turned on or not. And that's exactly what I expected. This isn't anecdotal evidence from several tankfuls of gasoline. It's steady-state, flat-road testing, and I don't even pretend to have actual economy numbers. I'm using fuel-injector pulse widths directly from the OBD II port. That means I'm measuring the actual time the injectors are open and delivering fuel. When the HHO generator is toggled on, there's no change. And when it's turned back off, there's no change. Well, the computer's system voltage sags a couple of tenths of a volt, indicating the current drain to run the electrolyzer.
Before you HHO proponents start bombarding me with hate mail, chill. You may have some amazing anecdotal evidence that these systems work. But I'm not swayed by over-the-road proof unless the conditions are constant—the variables are too, well, variable. And that includes my own testing. There's too much noise in the data collection, statistically speaking, and quite a bit of room for experimenter bias. From considerable experience with other gas savers, I know even the subtlest change in driving habits can influence the results. I won't be convinced of any fuel savings until I see results on a dynamometer, where I can control everything except the HHO.
I spent a good hour on the phone yesterday with Fran Giroux of hydrogen-boost.com. He tells me that the HHO injection is only an enabler for other devices and changes. The fuel savings doesn't come from the energy contained in the hydrogen as it's burned, which is what I've asserted all along was implausible. Giroux sells a system of modifications that disables the engine management's computer and makes the engine run extremely lean—as lean as 20:1. That's far from the normal 14.7:1. The hydrogen is necessary to let the ultralean mix burn completely, he claims. There's also a heater for the fuel to promote complete vaporization, and some additives for the fuel and oil to complete his system.
Interesting? Why, yes. But there's a catch.
These mods come under the category of tampering with a federally-mandated emissions control system, making it impossible to pass the underhood visual inspection component of many state smog inspections. To pass this underhood check, no part of the emissions control system can appear to have been modified or disabled. Add in the OBD II pass-fail to the smog check, and odds are these modifications will keep you from getting a smog sticker. That means you might have to disable—and perhaps remove—the system to pass the annual test. Just don't get caught in between.
I had another long talk yesterday with Steve Rumore, my off-road buddy turned HHO donater. He's experimenting with several vehicles, and actually getting some consistent results—fuel-economy improvements to the tune of 10 to 12 percent on diesel trucks pulling trailers. He's tinkering with some of the same things Giroux is suggesting. We're looking into ways to refine both his and my experimental methods. But I'm convinced there's a lot of placebo effect. I also think that these mods may be increasing fuel economy independently of the HHO injection. So stay tuned, because we're still testing. Once we get some more data onboard, we'll be dyno testing.
I worry about using water for fuel the same as I worry about using food for fuel.
The verdict is in...........as if there was a need for a trial...........
Not so different from our FR threads on the same subject then...
“These mods come under the category of tampering with a federally-mandated emissions control system, “
This is a sad sentence. When did we give them this authority, and when will we get it back?
It simply takes more energy to break water into its constituent hydrogen and oxygen than is produced by combining them. This is the fundamental fact that makes water more stable than hydrogen or oxygen.
Hydrogen is a medium of energy storage. The energy comes from another source, (hopefully nuclear energy as electricity). There is energy lost at each stage of the conversion process. Making a “fuel” and conuming it is always a less than 100% return process.
The technical challenges associated with storing large quantities of hydrogen are enormous. It may ultimately have adavantages over storage batteries, because a battery carries an inherent inefficiency due to the fact that it weighs the same “empty” as “full”.
Birds of a feather, I suppose............
...and when will we get it back?
Never.................
I did build and install a hho system on my chevy pick up.
No gain in the miles per gallon at all. But it does seem to have more pep. But not worth the headache.
But, surely a hybrid windmill car would do the trick... a tiny amount of gas to get the car above 30 mph, and then just the breeze over the roof turns the windmill to power the car from there.
What, you say that's not enough? Well then TWO windmills would more than be sufficient - one on the hood and one on the trunk...
/s
Myth. Energy is not wasted. When more load is connected to the Alternator additional Torque is required from the engine and/or higher RPM's.
Just like the engine, the alternator has the capacity to produce more power than normally required. And just like the engine, it takes more input into the alternator to get more output.
That’s not true, so it’s impossible to work on it.
Giroux sells a system of modifications that disables the engine management's computer and makes the engine run extremely lean—as lean as 20:1. That's far from the normal 14.7:1. The hydrogen is necessary to let the ultralean mix burn completely, he claims. There's also a heater for the fuel to promote complete vaporization, and some additives for the fuel and oil to complete his system.
My guess is that any of these systems that show an economy improvement do so by screwing with the intake charge and/or exhaust O2 signals to lean out the mixture. The injected Hydrogen actually recombines with Oxygen well before it reaches the engine. Voila - it's just water injection which cools the combustion event to prevent pinging. I'll bet one could replace the several hundred dollar electrolyzer cell with a container of water and a tube plumbed as a venturi tube and achieve the same results if there are any.
Thanks much. So if there is no load on the altenator it is basically just spinning free? Where does the voltage regulator come in? Is this why generators were switched over to altenators?
I had one of those back in the early 80’s. Works okay, if you can stand the water/oil goo on the dipstick...............
So you’re telling me that mounting a giant wind turbine on the top of my pickup to generate electricity to power the vehicle might not work? :o(
The voltage regulator is just that, a voltage regulator. It turns off the alternator’s output to the battery at about 13.8 VDC to prevent overcharging, and thus destroying, the battery. Alternators replaced generators because generators are less reliable in the long run...........
If breaking the water into hydrogen and oxygen takes more energy than it is outputting then why does his fuel economy NOT change when the unit was off or on? In theory his economy should have gone DOWN when the unit is turned on. Seems to me that the energy being produced is at least getting him back to a zero net gain. ;)
A magneto replaces the distributer. It only generates a high voltage spark for the plugs.
Engine timing depends on how fast the engine is turning and the burn rate of the fuel. The ignition fires the plug at some point before the piston reaches top dead center to compensate for the burn rate of fuel. If you retard the timing of the ignition, the fuel doesn't have time to burn and unburned fuel goes out the exhaust. This is less efficient. If you advance the timing too much, the ignition fires too soon and the engine is working against itself - which wastes fuel.
These HHO systems don't work. They defy the known laws of chemistry, physics and mechanics.
Many of these systems advise you to change the water every month. If the system worked you would be consuming as much water as gasoline - this is based on the fact that hydrogen is less energy-dense than gasoline and most claims say that you get a 20% increase in economy. That means that you would have to replace 20% of the energy that you're currently getting from burning gasoline with burning hydrogen.
I would believe that the HHO systems are just as likely to cure male pattern baldness and cure impotence as they are to increase mileage.
Essentially just frictional losses if no electrical connection is made to the alternator.
Where does the voltage regulator come in?
The voltage regulator regulates the voltage going to the battery. It does this by turning current to the field (stator) terminal of the alternator on and off. If the battery voltage goes below 13.5 volts, the voltage regulator sends current to the field terminal and allows the alternator to start charging. Current will then flow into the battery and bring it up to full charge. If the voltage goes above 14.5 volts, the voltage regulator shuts off the current to the field terminal and keeps the battery from overcharging and cooking itself. This is how the voltage regulator controls the alternator output.
http://autorepair.about.com/cs/electrical/a/aa122700a.htm
Is this why generators were switched over to altenators?
Alternators have the great advantage over direct-current generators of not using a commutator, which makes them simpler, lighter, and more rugged than a DC generator. The stronger construction of alternators allows them to turn at higher speed, allowing an automotive alternator to turn at twice engine speed, improving output when the engine is idling. The availability of low-cost solid-state diodes from about 1960 allowed auto manufacturers to substitute alternators for generators. Automotive alternators use a set of rectifiers (diode bridge) to convert AC to DC. To provide direct current with low ripple, automotive alternators have a three-phase winding.
http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/kitcar/kb.php?aid=186
CNN was gasping that some weed in Florida was our answer to Mideast oil.
They may be right............
Thank you.
One of the constaints facing us is that you have to have functioning polution controls in order to register the vehicle for highway use. Anyone who lived through the early 70s can tell you that fuel mileage went south when the government mandated smog controls.
Even if this worked on an old tractor, the government wouldn't allow it to go on a modern car if it required bypassing the smog controls.
Wow, so we didn’t repeal the laws of thermodynamics after all.
Isn’t a magneto just another form of a DC generator? I say d—n those dead white men that passed those evil laws of Physics. Off with their heads! Repeal those evil Laws, Pelosi!
barbra ann
Fortunately, I understand Thermodynamics 101 (and 102, and on down the line), so I didn’t have to try one to know that it wouldn’t work.
Yes, that appears to be the core concept on the FR threads that I've seen. The "extra" electricity from the alternator does the job of running the electrolizer (or so some people seem to think).
Looks like something that will cause a visit by your local Bomb Squad & SWAT.
The alternator is always turning but the energy needed to turn it is entirely dependent on load. Think of it as an electrical pump.
Alternators are more efficient than generators. A big automotive generator was 40 amps. A lot of cars are running around today with 130 amp alternators.
According to the article - there is no proof that this is happening. The computers aren't detecting any pinging in the engine and the "knock detector" doesn't send a signal to the ECU to retard the timing. If the Brown's Gases are actually making the fuel burn faster, the engine would be pinging like a steel drum in a reggae band.
Apparently, I won’t need to chuck my thermodynamics book, because the second law still holds true.
He is talking about the water injection system It atomizes water and injects it directly into the throat of the carb. It effectively increases the octane thus allowing you to run more timing.
The unit I had used a low vacuum signal (engine load) to activate it.
If he was getting milky oil, he needed to turn it down... Water does not make very good lubrication. (^;
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