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Anthrax case turns - Scientist commits suicide as FBI probe tightens
Frederick News-Post ^ | August 2, 2008 | Gina Gallucci-White and Justin M. Palk

Posted on 08/02/2008 2:07:52 PM PDT by Shermy

(From newspaper local to Fort Detrick)

In 2003, the Defense Department gave Bruce Ivins its highest civilian honor for his work on an anthrax vaccine.

Friday, the government had little to say about him, following his apparent suicide and media reports that the FBI was preparing to charge him with the 2001 anthrax mailings.

Ivins was a Frederick resident who worked at the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases, was a member of St. John Evangelical Catholic Church and a volunteer with the American Red Cross.

He once said he taught himself to juggle to correct his nature as "a complete klutz."

The Justice Department had little comment on reports in the Los Angeles Times that the FBI was about to charge him for the 2001 anthrax mailings that left five people dead and more than a dozen injured.

It said only that progress had been made in the anthrax investigation, and that it anticipated releasing more details in the near future.

In an e-mailed statement, USAMRIID spokeswoman Caree Vander Linden wrote that the institute is mourning the loss of Ivins, who served there for more than 35 years as a civilian microbiologist. She had no further statement regarding the anthrax investigation other than it is ongoing.

Paul Kemp, a Rockville attorney who has been representing Ivins for more than a year, said in a written statement Friday that his client was innocent, and that he was disappointed not to have the opportunity to prove that in court.

"The relentless pressure of accusation and innuendo takes its toll in different ways on different people," the statement read. "In Dr. Ivins' case, it led to his untimely death."

Last month, the government exonerated Steven Hatfill, another Fort Detrick scientist who investigators had publicly named as a "person of interest" in 2002.

Hatfill filed a lawsuit claiming he had been falsely accused of and been made a scapegoat for the crimes, and the government paid him $5.82 million to settle the case.

"The FBI wants to speak to the victims' families first, and I want to respect that process," said Thomas Connolly, Hatfill's lawyer. "Today is not the appropriate time to comment. I want to give these families time to have comfort."

Ivins' family declined to comment when The News-Post reached them at home.

A dark end

The final weeks of Ivins' life were marked by allegations he made violent and homicidal threats, hospital evaluations, being removed from Fort Detrick by police officers and a court appearance, according to court documents and police.

Jean C. Duley filed for a peace order against him July 24 in Frederick County District Court, accusing him of stalking, threats and harassment. A temporary peace order was granted the same day.

A peace order may be filed by individuals who are being harassed or stalked and/or their property is being maliciously destroyed or trespassed on by a stranger, neighbor or acquaintance, according to the state Board of Victim Services. The order will be granted if the court finds clear and convincing evidence that the accused committed and is likely to commit acts against the individual in the future.

"Dr. David Irwin, his psychiatrist, called him homicidal, sociopathic with clear intentions," the document states. "Will testify with other details."

According to a recording at the Shady Grove Psychiatric Group, Irwin is out of the office until Monday. A message left was not returned.

The document goes on to state that Ivins had made "homicidal threats, actions, plans, threats and actions towards therapist" and has a history of threats dating back to his graduate days.

A spokeswoman for the University of Cincinnati, where Ivins received three degrees, had no information to that effect.

Duley, 45, also told the court she had been subpoenaed to testify before a federal grand jury Friday, according to court documents.

"FBI involved, currently under investigation and will be charged with five capital murders," she stated in court documents.

"As of this point, we don't have a comment," said Mary McGuirk Drawbaugh, an attorney with Martz, Fisher, & Drawbaugh, LLC in Frederick who represents Duley.

Drawbaugh wouldn't say how the two knew each other.

At Duley's Williamsport home in Washington County, a man who identified himself only as Duley's husband called her a hero and said she would have no comment until the FBI completed its investigation.

Ivins made threats over a three-day period from July 9 to 11, the document states.

On July 10, officers were called to check the welfare of Ivins at USAMRIID at Fort Detrick, said Lt. Clark Pennington of the Frederick Police Department. An officer determined he needed to be evaluated, and he was taken to Frederick Memorial Hospital.

Police did not need to use excessive force to take Ivins off the Army post, he said.

"There is a very brief report stating that the escort of the officers was performed, but few details are included and the report itself has not yet been finalized," said Chuck Gordon, Public Affairs Officer for Fort Detrick in an e-mail.

Ivins was later transferred to Sheppard Pratt Health System, a psychiatric hospital in Baltimore, the document states. While at Sheppard Pratt, he was to have a commitment hearing on July 16, but he signed himself in voluntarily, which meant he could leave when he wished.

Calls left with Sheppard Pratt and FMH public information officers were not returned Friday.

Vander Linden said people have to go through a rigorous process that includes background checks and medical examinations before they are given access to USAMRIID's biocontainment suites, but she said she was not sure if that process includes psychological examinations.

The temporary peace order instructed Ivins not to abuse or contact Duley or go to her home or job.

He never made it to the final hearing, which was set for Thursday.

About 1:15 a.m. Sunday, Frederick County Emergency Communications received a medical emergency call from Ivins' 622 Military Road home, said Lt. Shawn Martyak of the Frederick Police Department. Officials found Ivins unresponsive on the floor in a room in his home.

At the time when officers were called, nothing indicated the medical emergency was a suicide, he said.

The department was notified Tuesday afternoon by Frederick Memorial Hospital officials that Ivins, 62, had died, Martyak said. Officials from the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner told the department they were taking a look at the case.

The department is conducting a death investigation, which is the standard procedure regarding suicides.

A final report from the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner is not expected for several weeks, he said.

Besides being called on July 10 and July 27, the department was called to Ivins' home one other time this year, Pennington said. Officers were assisting fire and rescue officials on a call for an unconscious person, but he did not know if that individual was Ivins.

Another side

While Ivins may have been battling demons in his personal life, he showed a different side when he was in public.

He was a volunteer with the American Red Cross Frederick Chapter since 2001 and helped with disaster services and community disaster education, said Keith Roberson, a member of the executive board for the organization.

Ivins actively participated in chapter and disaster services meetings, he said.

"He was a very dedicated volunteer," Roberson said.

Ivins also was a parishioner at St. John the Evangelist Roman Catholic Church in Frederick where he was a musician for many years during church services.

Calls to the Rev. Richard Murphy were not returned, and a visit to his home for comment was unsuccessful.

William Meadors, who played in a band with Ivins, remembered his musical talents.

"He could play anything on the piano," Meadors said. "My impression of him -- he was very intelligent guy and seemed very personable."

Meadors, of Braddock Heights, worked at USAMRIID, but not directly with Ivins. He believes Ivins could have collapsed under the pressure of the FBI's investigation.

Meadors was shocked to hear a therapist noted Ivins' homicidal tendencies.

He said he doesn't believe Ivins was involved in the attack and is concerned the investigation will come to an end because of the suicide.

"It'll be interesting to see what comes of all this," he said. "Whether he's guilty or he isn't, it's a tragedy."

Frederick reacts

Neighbors Natalie Duggan and her mother, Bonnie Duggan, described Ivins as "the kind of person who would go out of his way to lend a hand."

They said they had no idea he was under FBI surveillance.

"I'd frequently see [the FBI's] cars ... they had blacked-out windows. It was kind of freaky," Natalie Duggan said. "We were kind of wondering what the deal is. We would see Bruce, but we never thought it was him."

The news of his suicide saddened them both. "It is just a very sad day," Bonnie Duggan said. "I never suspected him of any wrongdoing whatsoever, he always was a straight arrow."

A former employee at Fort Detrick whose son lives in Ivins' neighborhood, Bob Newton, came over to look at Ivins' house Friday afternoon.

Newton said he remembered how lax security had been when he was stationed at the Army post in the 1970s.

"I was located in building right next to the 8-ball where they did a lot of experiments on monkeys, chemicals, all that stuff," he said. "I hate to say it, but back then, stuff came in and out of this gate."

Even though security has gotten tighter, "it did not surprise me one bit to learn the source of the anthrax was Fort Detrick," he said.

Newton said that when he worked in the labs, procedures were in place to ensure some degree of safety through record-keeping. Given that, he believes if something was amiss, someone had to have noticed.

"The anthrax had to be locked up, it had to be," Newton said.

The most logical explanation Newton can think of for why someone might have done this illegal act was emotional.

"Something got to him," Newton said. "I don't think it was a conspiracy."

Russell Byrne worked with Ivins in USAMRIID's bacteriology division. Byrne, who retired from Fort Detrick about four years ago, said he believes Ivins was living under pressure, being plagued by the FBI.

Federal agents had raided Ivins' home twice and threatened his job, Byrne said. The cost of lawyers was also likely putting Ivins under financial strain.

Byrne remembers working with Ivins and described an example of his eccentric behavior -- when a co-worker retired or found a new job, Ivins was quick to put together a clever song or poem for that person.

"Everybody just loved Bruce," Byrne said.

Byrne said he doesn't believe Ivins was involved in the anthrax attacks. He said he wonders how it is that the culprits haven't been identified after seven years of investigation.

"I can't imagine what it would take to convince me (that Ivins was involved)," Byrne said. "It's unimaginable to me that he had anything to do with the attacks."

Byrne's wife, Ellen Byrne, remembered Ivins from company get-togethers. She recalled his sense of humor.

"He would sing songs, make up songs," she said. "He was a nice guy, just always very upbeat and funny."

Staff writers Pam Rigaux, Sarah Fortney and Karen Gardner contributed to this article.


TOPICS: Anthrax Scare; Crime/Corruption; Extended News; News/Current Events; US: Maryland
KEYWORDS: amerithrax; anthrax; antraz; bioterrorism; bruceivins; fbi; ivins; usamriid
Interesting excerpts from USA Today

Norman Covert, 65, a retired Fort Detrick spokesman, served with Ivins for 11 years on a committee that reviewed how lab animals were used in research. He said the FBI "had been leaning on him (Ivins) for some time. That would stress anybody out."

"I see no evidence to show that it's Bruce. It could be anyone else in that microbacteriology lab or anywhere else in the world" because the strain of anthax used in the attacks, though originating at Fort Detrick, had been available around the world since the late 1970s, Covert said.

-----

Los Angeles Times "broke" the Ivins story yesterday. Here is there follow-up from today where the FBI, quietly, suggests Ivins' motive was an anthrax vaccine he had a hand in.

Anthrax scientist Bruce Ivins stood to benefit from a panic

1 posted on 08/02/2008 2:07:52 PM PDT by Shermy
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To: TrebleRebel; piasa; Mitchell; Allan; ZACKandPOOK; jpl; cgk; archy; Alamo-Girl; Battle Axe; ...

Ping.


2 posted on 08/02/2008 2:11:00 PM PDT by Shermy (I'm very proud of America giving me this opportunity. It's a sign of enormous growth in this country)
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To: Shermy
Hmmm... I thought I heard the MSM say it was a right wing nut. I even heard Pat Robertson say that he might agree since the newspapers that got it were liberal. WRONG AGAIN!

I swear Pat Robertson is losing his touch!

3 posted on 08/02/2008 2:11:26 PM PDT by mainestategop (MAINE: Come in and get taxed)
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To: mainestategop

No liberal newspapers got the anthrax.

Only the New York Post, which is not liberal. Interestingly, the New York Times was not targeted, which I would think more likely applying the “lone right wing nut” theory.


4 posted on 08/02/2008 2:15:27 PM PDT by Shermy (I'm very proud of America giving me this opportunity. It's a sign of enormous growth in this country)
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To: Shermy
If he indeed was a psycho with homocidal tendencies, it's a good thing (especially for his fellow workers) that he didn't do what psychos many times do before committing suicide-by-cop.

Leni

5 posted on 08/02/2008 2:17:12 PM PDT by MinuteGal (FREEPATHON CONTEST IS FINI...... WINNERS on FREEPATHON THREAD #'s 308 & 314!)
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To: Shermy

After seeing what happened with Hatfill, I really hope the FBI has targeted the right man. The media is reporting this as if this guy is known to be guilty, with reports of him being a stalker as well, and the man has killed himself - his wife, children and friends must be going through hell. Hopefully the FBI has the right guy.


6 posted on 08/02/2008 2:18:13 PM PDT by AnotherUnixGeek
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To: AnotherUnixGeek

I hope so too, but I have the nasty suspicion he was being made a scapegoat.


7 posted on 08/02/2008 2:22:01 PM PDT by MissEdie (On the Sixth Day God created Spurrier)
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To: Shermy

Interesting that this man was the primary researcher whose “information” was the justification for the pushing of the Anthrax vaccine on our troops. This stinks to hell. This man was suspect long ago. Rumsfeld was to shut the vaccine program down and two days before doing so “someone” mails the spores. Nice!


8 posted on 08/02/2008 2:25:02 PM PDT by ICE-FLYER (God bless and keep the United States of America)
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To: MinuteGal

The hand written notes of Duley, the so-called “court document”, allege he had homocidal tendencies against therapists, not the public.

He probably did have a mental breakdown. That would make him not the first but second “person of interest” in this case which FBI tactics caused to breakdown. The other was Ken Berry.


9 posted on 08/02/2008 2:25:49 PM PDT by Shermy (I'm very proud of America giving me this opportunity. It's a sign of enormous growth in this country)
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To: ICE-FLYER

There’s lots of possible coincidences, including the pushing of the Patriot Act at the time.


10 posted on 08/02/2008 2:27:36 PM PDT by Shermy (I'm very proud of America giving me this opportunity. It's a sign of enormous growth in this country)
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To: Shermy
Oh? I was watching 700 club one time and I did hear pat Robertson say something about the New York Times and Washington post being targets.
11 posted on 08/02/2008 2:28:22 PM PDT by mainestategop (MAINE: Come in and get taxed)
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To: Shermy

“...people have to go through a rigorous process...includes background checks...medical examinations before they are given access to USAMRIID’s biocontainment suites, but...not sure if that process includes psychological examinations.”

I know of electrical utilities operating nuclear power facilities that maintain rigorous psychological testing of all personnel having access to nuclear facilities. We don’t want any psychoes getting access to nukie control rooms, now do we? But the Feds don’t test personnel with access to potential bioweapons?

Also, I find this story disgusting. The man is dead, never convicted or even charged with a felony, and this newspaper states some crap about his “homocidal tendencies” and how he was about to be charged with five “murders”.

Anyone under duress by authorities can feel paranoid to the extent of violent intent.


12 posted on 08/02/2008 2:29:36 PM PDT by SatinDoll (Desperately desiring a conservative government.)
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To: mainestategop

He’s very wrong.

Send him a wiki link. ;-)


13 posted on 08/02/2008 2:31:05 PM PDT by Shermy (I'm very proud of America giving me this opportunity. It's a sign of enormous growth in this country)
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To: Shermy

The article in the Seattle Times, said that he had made very specific threats against his fellow employees and that the order that was taken out against him was a restraining order because of the threats.

Ivins had told a therapy group that he had purchased a bullet proof vest because he was facing murder charges and that he intended to take as many of his fellow employees out as he could, before he was arrested.


14 posted on 08/02/2008 2:31:56 PM PDT by Eva (CHANGE- the post modern euphemism for Marxist revolution.)
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To: Shermy
Hatfill, then Barry, were supposed to be the one. Neither did it.

Now, Ivins is supposed to be the one.

You're not buying it either, I gather.

It would be nice to see some evidence on Ivins' involvement, rather than allegations. Or press reports -- since the media have been accessories with the FBI throughout this investigation.

15 posted on 08/02/2008 2:36:04 PM PDT by okie01 (THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA: Ignorance on Parade)
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Maryland’s chief medical examiner, Dr. David Fowler, confirmed Saturday that Ivins died Tuesday morning at Frederick, Md., Memorial Hospital; that the cause of death was found to be an overdose of acetaminophen, the active drug in Tylenol; and that it was ruled a suicide based on information from police and doctors.

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/WireStory?id=5502344&page=3


16 posted on 08/02/2008 2:42:38 PM PDT by Shermy (I'm very proud of America giving me this opportunity. It's a sign of enormous growth in this country)
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To: Shermy
There’s lots of possible coincidences, including the pushing of the Patriot Act at the time

Lots? No, not at all. Its not close to reality to see how this man was tied into the vaccine program and into the release of these spores and suggest that it was something else. There are not "lots" of reasons. The whole program is another Clinton legacy saga and this mans so-called "research" was the definitive used to force it on the soldiers.

17 posted on 08/02/2008 2:46:58 PM PDT by ICE-FLYER (God bless and keep the United States of America)
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To: Eva; okie01

I see that.

It comes from Duley again. According to a court transcript.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/02/us/02scientist.html?em

“He is a revenge killer,” Ms. Duley told a Maryland District Court judge in Frederick as she sought a restraining order against Dr. Ivins. “When he feels that he has been slighted, and especially towards women, he plots and actually tries to carry out revenge killings.”

That’s very wild. She’s not a doctor. How does Duley know him, and how long? How can she say he’s been doing this since his “graduate days.”

No doubt Ivins cracked, but I think it was at the end of his life.


18 posted on 08/02/2008 2:48:51 PM PDT by Shermy (I'm very proud of America giving me this opportunity. It's a sign of enormous growth in this country)
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To: okie01; Mitchell; TrebleRebel

From ABC

“The Justice Department attributed the break in the case to “new and sophisticated scientific tools.” Investigators said the science focused, in part, on how the anthrax strains were handled and who had access to it at the time of the mailings.

Had the same process been used years ago, it would have cleared Hatfill, according to two people familiar with the FBI investigation who spoke on condition of anonymity because the case is not officially closed.”

Dubious. The proof now is that the germs came from Fort Detrick, and the theory always was that Hatfill’s mere presence there gave him access. If by “handle” they mean the anthrax was actually very sophisticated, that will be another grave flip flop.


19 posted on 08/02/2008 2:53:11 PM PDT by Shermy (I'm very proud of America giving me this opportunity. It's a sign of enormous growth in this country)
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To: Shermy

Can we trust anything the government says these days?

I don’t know if this guy is guilty or not.
He may be - it certainly sounds as if there is evidence to that effect.
But we still have a legal system that considers a person innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

Our government at all levels has accused and crucified too many innocent people in the press over the last years.
They were fighting a lawsuit to pay damages to another person falsely accused of this very same crime at the same time they were working to pin the crime on this new suspect.

Commiting suicide is not a defacto admission of guilt - government pressure alone could drive some to take their own lives and accusations of suicide are not always correct.

This is the same government that erroneously told us for months that the recent Salmonella epidemic was being caused by domestically grown tomatoes.
Yet they had no evidence to point in that direction and had absolutely no proof at all.

I think they are mostly incompetent bureaucrats and political hacks with agendas and I cannot accept their statements in any matter without rock solid proof.


20 posted on 08/02/2008 2:54:21 PM PDT by Iron Munro (Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself.)
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To: okie01

“You’re not buying it either, I gather.”

I have my doubts, like many.

I’ll give them this - at least this guy, unlike Hatfill, worked with anthrax.


21 posted on 08/02/2008 2:55:32 PM PDT by Shermy (I'm very proud of America giving me this opportunity. It's a sign of enormous growth in this country)
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To: Shermy
Los Angeles Times "broke" the Ivins story yesterday.

I was in LA yesterday and happened to read their story. An interesting facet in the LA Times article was a quote from his brother who said that he (the brother of Bruce Ivins) "sung like a canary" when asked about his brother Bruce, saying that Bruce had this idea about himself that he was "omnipotent".

22 posted on 08/02/2008 3:11:17 PM PDT by Jim 0216
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To: All
In one report, during a group therapy session he threatened to commit workplace mass murder.

Imagine for a second what could have happened if this man had decided to do like other suicidal killers and take as many innocent people with him as possible. Given his position it is very possible that he had access to large amounts of anthrax.

What if he decided to go to the top of a NY skyscraper on a windy day and release his stash of anthrax. What if he grabbed a large mailing list off the Internet and mailed out 1000 anthrax letters, or 5000. What if he stood on a hill upwind from a large football stadium, or hijacked a light plane and flew over a large metropolitan area.
What if he did all of the above but in multiple cities over a couple weeks time.
I think it is perfectly possible for a rogue bio-weapons scientist to murder a million people. It appears to me that the authorities treated this case as a garden variety serial killer law enforcement problem and not a potential holocaust.
It seems to me they were taking an incredible chance in just assuming this guy was not intent on mass murder.

This attachment to the fine points of constitutional law and due process is leading us down the road potential, to a horrific catastrophe which will dwarf 9-11.

Public health officials totally surrendered to the AIDS lobby. The CDC and the whole health establishment are spending a hundred billion dollars on a cure for an easily preventable disease, rather than risk being labeled homophobic or racists by activists. Activists representing those whose main concern is to make their sex practices safer.

This mentality is so deeply entrenched among the medical and media elite that I believe they would rather risk the death of millions rather than be accused of being a bigot.

I believe if the CDC discovered a breakout of an incredibly contagious strain of Ebola in Sub-Saharan Africa, that literally had the potential of killing 95% of the worlds population instead of immediately quarantining Sub-Saharan Africa and suspending international travel, they would discuss, debate, dawdle and fret about whether such dramatic action would be perceived as racist, and delay action just long enough to doom billions.

23 posted on 08/02/2008 3:17:16 PM PDT by Jonah Johansen ("Coming soon to a neighborhood near you")
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To: Shermy

There are NO coincidences in crime. Each trail must be followed to its very end.


24 posted on 08/02/2008 3:18:25 PM PDT by brushcop (We remember SSG Harrison Brown, PVT Andrew Simmons B CO 2/69 3ID KIA Iraq OIF IV)
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To: Jim 0216

Interestingly, the LA Times failed to mention this brother who hated him had not spoken to Ivins since 1985. 28 years. The AP reporters followed up and found that crucial fact.

That omission on the Times part was one of the things that caught my attention. It read like the Times reporter just regurgitated whatever his FBI source fed him.


25 posted on 08/02/2008 3:19:43 PM PDT by Shermy (I'm very proud of America giving me this opportunity. It's a sign of enormous growth in this country)
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To: mainestategop

PAT ROBERTSON!? Yeah I bet, what a maroon!


26 posted on 08/02/2008 4:28:40 PM PDT by jimbobaby
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To: Shermy
Me thinks the therapist had issues. Who runs out and snitches to the FBI on a client?
27 posted on 08/02/2008 4:51:18 PM PDT by Battle Axe (Repent for the coming of the Lord is nigh!)
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To: Shermy

Jawohl! Intrigue gets deeper. The bother didn’t seem to hide the fact that he didn’t try to protect him.


28 posted on 08/02/2008 5:03:00 PM PDT by Jim 0216
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To: Battle Axe
"Who runs out and snitches to the FBI on a client?"

Uh, perhaps a therapist who believes that a client intends to do them harm.

Sometimes it just is what it is.

29 posted on 08/02/2008 5:11:30 PM PDT by VaBthang4 ("He Who Watches Over Israel Will Neither Slumber Nor Sleep")
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To: Shermy; Abundy; Albion Wilde; AlwaysFree; AnnaSASsyFR; bayliving; BFM; cindy-true-supporter; ...

Maryland “Freak State” PING!


30 posted on 08/02/2008 5:28:05 PM PDT by Tolerance Sucks Rocks (Drill Here! Drill Now! Pay Less! Sign the petition at http://www.americansolutions.com/)
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To: Shermy
Interestingly, the LA Times failed to mention this brother who hated him had not spoken to Ivins since 1985. 28 years. The AP reporters followed up and found that crucial fact.

Whatever he told the FBI must have fit the psychological profile the investigators were considering. However, it seems Ivins' friends and colleagues all held him high regard. So, which brother is the nut?

31 posted on 08/02/2008 5:54:37 PM PDT by cynwoody
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To: Shermy

If he had homicidal tendencies towards therapists he must have had some good sense.


32 posted on 08/02/2008 6:01:22 PM PDT by Allan (*-O)):~{>)
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To: cynwoody
So, which brother is the nut?

I can't tell. Nor can I see why it is significant evidence that an alienated family member would say of someone that they think too well of themselves, and reckon they can do anything.

Such comments can be made about anyone, really, and whether true or false are no indication of a crime.

33 posted on 08/02/2008 6:04:27 PM PDT by BlackVeil
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To: Shermy

Thanks for the ping!


34 posted on 08/02/2008 11:03:07 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Shermy
Interesting. From this story, it actually sounds like this guy tried to kill himself on late Saturday or early Sunday, and only died a couple of days later.

I still want to know why, if he was under such intense scrutiny and was about to be indicted, it took so long for all of this information to come out. That to me is the fishiest part about the whole thing.

35 posted on 08/03/2008 10:04:59 AM PDT by jpl ("Present." - Barack Obama)
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To: jpl

Ok,how about a little heresy injected into the issue.

The death was not Arkencide, but Texacide?


36 posted on 08/03/2008 10:12:12 AM PDT by bert (K.E. N.P. +12 . Conservation? Let the NE Yankees freeze.... in the dark)
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To: jimbobaby
PAT ROBERTSON!? Yeah I bet, what a maroon!

Yeah I think so too. I got tired watching that guy. I still watch CBN Christian world news though.

37 posted on 08/03/2008 12:42:30 PM PDT by mainestategop (MAINE: Come in and get taxed)
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