Posted on 07/30/2008 5:16:30 PM PDT by LAforme2008
Karen Deamons wants to use the women's locker room, like a normal woman.
Deamons is transsexual - she presents herself and lives as a woman. But because she has not yet had sex-change surgery, Cleveland officials insist that she change clothes in the men's locker room of the indoor pool at Cudell Recreation Center, after they received complaints from a few women who said Deamons made them uncomfortable.
For more than a year, Deamons, 53, followed the mandate. But now, after an embarrassing question from a boy in the men's locker room, she's fighting the city.
She filed a gender discrimination complaint with the Ohio Civil Rights Commission and is urging the state legislature to pass an introduced bill that would bar cities from discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.
Twenty states have passed similar bills.
"I can't do it anymore," Deamons said. "Every time I go through there, it's tearing my insides out."
Cleveland Law Director Robert Triozzi said the city's decision does not constitute discrimination.
"We are being as accommodating as we possibly can, given the request that's being made, given her own personal situation, given where she's at in life," Triozzi said. "We're trying to be sensitive."
Women interviewed recently at Cudell said they understand the dilemma. But most said they would be uncomfortable with a transsexual woman changing, at least openly, in the women's locker room.
"I just don't want them seeing, you know," said Holly Workman, who had brought six children to the center earlier this month.
Deamons, like other transsexual people, has the mind, personality and behavioral characteristics of the opposite sex, Deamons' endocrinologist, Thomas Murphy, wrote in a letter that Deamons carries. Murphy believes transsexual men and women should live as the gender with which they identify.
And national advocacy groups say that means people should use the locker room that matches the outward expression of their gender.
"It's just kind of the common-sense approach," said Kristina Wertz, legal director for the California-based Transgender Law Center. "Someone should use the restroom that corresponds with their identity and their appearance."
Deamons said that initially, she changed in the private toilet stalls of the women's locker room for about five months without conflict. After the complaints were lodged against her, she met with city officials, who asked if she had had sex reassignment surgery. Since the answer was no, she agreed to use the men's locker room, which, according to the city, recreation center workers are supposed to empty for her use.
A gender-neutral locker room - the goal of college student groups from California to Massachusetts - is not being considered. And the city will not consider clearing the women's room for Deamons.
"I'm not sure that makes any practical difference," Triozzi said. "The idea here is to provide the element of privacy necessary in these circumstances."
But Deamons said that the bathroom stalls have no doors in the men's locker room and that rec center employees never clear the men's locker room. She has not pushed for that, though.
Last month, while she was dressing, a little boy asked why there was a woman in the men's room. Embarrassed, Deamons tried to change in an enclosed area in a separate women's restroom - a move for which pool workers banned her from the pool for a week.
Then, earlier this month, Cudell employees insisted she sign into the pool on the men's registration sheet.
Deamons said she fears gangs will beat her up after seeing her emerging from the men's room or signing the men's registration sheet.
"I'm opening myself to get beat up," said Deamons, who refuses to sign the men's sheet and so is not allowed to swim. "They're infringing on my rights."
Although she remembers feeling female as early as 10 or 11, Deamons lived for years as a man. As a man, she married twice and has three children. In 2000, she began hormone treatments to transition to a woman.
Deamons sees no real options.
She can't switch to another city pool, since the mandate applies to all of them.
She says she must swim. She suffered three strokes in 2003 and 2004, and doctors have prescribed water exercises to help keep mobility in her left arm and leg.
She uses a wheelchair and must take public transportation, so Cudell is the most convenient city pool from her Cleveland home.
And since she is on a limited budget of disability payments - her strokes forced her to give up her livelihood as an electrician - she can't afford to join a private club.
So she believes she must challenge the city and demand to change her clothes in the private stalls of the women's locker room or in an enclosed room in another women's restroom.
"I want the city to let me go through the ladies' room as a normal woman," she said. "That's who I am and what I am."
I want to know if one is simply tran-gender curious if you can visit opposite sex bathrooms....you know, kinda see if you like it first...
If karen wants to use the women’s looker room them she will just have to have the complete surgery and remove all male parts......until then...it is in the mens room....or she should just be a man!
Obviously, since surgery hasn’t occurred yet, the author meant to say “HE”, not “she”. I guess we’re editorializing in the news again.
>> “ can’t do it anymore,” Deamons said. “Every time I go through there, it’s tearing my insides out.” <<
You’re not the only one, miss..er, I mean, sir...ummm
I have a feeling that due to the fact Karen has had several strokes a few years ago, her prospects for complete surgery are almost nil.
There is no “she” here. This is a man with a psychological problem or a perversion. Don’t buy into the language. This is an XY genetically bona fide male regardless of what he does to mutilate himself.
Lorena Bobbit on line one please!
“Obviously, since surgery hasn’t occurred yet, the author meant to say “HE”, not “she”. I guess we’re editorializing in the news again.”
No actually the style book from the press company that shall not be named says you should refer to the transgender person as they gender they present in.
Look if this Karen person whats to cut off his/her parts then whatever. I can not stop her/him. I know it does not change DNA and that it is only plastic surgery. It would not bother me if this Karen person was in the womans bathroom or locker room after the operation because then I know “SHE” could not sexually attack me because “she” would not have the organ to do so!
What was the embarrassing question?
It is my understanding that even gays and lesbians are uncomfortable around trangendered people. How do they expect the public at large to deal with them?
There, fixed it.
“It would not bother me if this Karen person was in the womans bathroom or locker room after the operation because then I know “SHE” could not sexually attack me because “she” would not have the organ to do so!”
Chances are if she’s been on female hormones for any length of time there would be no danger of that happening anyway.
And if she is like most MTF individuals, she’s not interested in women.
There was someone in our (female) locker room who definitely had a “package.” I really don’t care but then I’m 60. I guess I do care when my 7 year old granddaughter is there. There are “family” changing rooms and that seems to me to be the compromise. These rooms always seem unused. No showers or hot tubs but hey, it’s a compromise. Also, one of my friends never changes in the locker rooms but then she doesn’t swim. There are the public restrooms. hmmm.
Gender neutral locker rooms, like gender neutral bathrooms, are normally one user at a time with locks on the doors.
It’s all about him/her/it. There is some consideration for others (changing in bathroom stalls), but other than that, it’s all about MEEEEEEEEEEEEE and not about social NORMS. He/she/it should take the plunge and get reassignment surgery, or he/she/it could get help (from a CONSERVATIVE therapist), or he/she/it could pick a type of exercise where outfit changes can be done in the privacy of ones home.
The person’s last name says it all.
OK, so it has to be reassignment or therapy. Begging your pardon.
Style book be damned. I know what a pronoun is and what each one means.
I will tell you right now that in Ohio they’d better tread very carefully with this issue. If the Democratic Governor and his ilk think that they will push through pro transexual legislation they’d better plan on being gone next term!
I will tell you right now that in Ohio they’d better tread very carefully with this issue. If the Democratic Governor and his ilk think that they will push through pro transexual legislation they’d better plan on being gone next term!
I believe it’s a disorder, like homosexuality. There could be instances of it where it is strictly psychological, but more likely, they are simply wired wrong, or it could be biology and psychology combined, IMO.
Hell, the self-anointed elite have gotten away with it in Montgomery County, MD, so far. There might be a ballot question on it this fall, however.
Here is my solution and would even be approved by CAIR:
Karen gets to use the pool & locker room of his/her/its choice, as long as he/she/it wears a full covering burqa at all times!
Gender neutral locker rooms, like gender neutral bathrooms, are normally one user at a time with locks on the doors.
************************************************************
That sounds like a good plan to me. It could be the size of a janitor’s closet. The sign on it could say “unisex bathroom” or “weirdos only” You guys feel free to make up a sign for the door!!!!!
If 'it' uses the women's locker room, every ;little girl should point, and ask, "Mommy, why is there a penis in here?" To which every Mommy should loudly reply, "because its owner is a very sick and confused man."
Having practiced psychiatry for 30 years I have encountered a number of such individuals. I think that these sexual "disorders" for lack of a better term probably run along a continuum from more highly biologically determined to more psychologically determined. I doubt any are truly genetically driven in total.
So Dr. Freud, I have to ask......are they “born gay” or did they “turn gay”? Any insights?
Her toes are showing. Stone the slut!
“Why was there a woman in the men’s room?”
that was what the embarrassing question was.
The boy, of course, was not allowed to be embarrassed by his encounter with this freak because that would be Un-PC.
I suspect some of these sexual "disorders" are like that and there really is no reason not to think this. To ask the question you asked is to assume that this is not the case. You are attempting to create a dichotomy when it probably does not exist.
Concerning the genetic element, no clear identification with an abnormality of genetic material has been found for either transexuals or homosexuals. Of course, absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence and something like this could conceivably be discovered in the future. However, at this time, there is no real scientific basis for the belief that genetics determine either of these disorders. Most of that claim is made on the basis of people claiming to recognize that they were "different" early in life. This is not robust data and reflects a great deal of subjectivity.
Environment and choice probably are greater determinants of sexual orientation in my opinion.
BTW, your comment about "Dr. Freud" was juvenile.
johniegrad: “Having practiced psychiatry for 30 years I have encountered a number of such individuals.”
There was a time when people actually tried to cure these disorders rather than affirm them. Now, all society MUST be radically reordered in order to accept those who deviate from the norm.
Thanks for the insight from your professional perspective.
Please everyone, no pictures!!!
new sign needed for women’s locker rooms:
WOMEN’S LOCKER ROOM
(no penises allowed)
The simple pronoun “it” would take care of the situation.
Uh, dude, are you like, a girl or somethiing?
Perhaps it’s a combination of genetics and environment that predisposes someone to have transsexual/homosexual thoughts. Much like the genes the predispose someone to alcoholism, odds are increased but the individual maintains the freedom to choose. Isn’t it medical malpractice to encourage a disorder rather than work to cure it?
Well they’ll be tearing your outside parts off soon enough.
Freak job. A trannvestite is just a eunuch and the only thing eunuchs are good for is guarding your wife from male suitors.
There was a time when people actually tried to cure these disorders rather than affirm them. Now, all society MUST be radically reordered in order to accept those who deviate from the norm.
************************************************************************
I don’t know what good Dr. Freud can do. I knew a boy in high school who came out of the closet. His parents took him to a shrink. Know what the boy did? He said to that Dr. Freud “I am gay and my parents can not accept it”. He told me this when I asked, that is all they talked about each session.
I would love to see one of the women kick him in the balls.
Because he hasn't had sex change surgey--why the f**k does this article refer to him as "she"???
No.
Penis = Men's Room
Vagina = Women's Room
Why is this so hard to understand. Do you think they bother with this crap in China or Russia? This country is bunch of stupid pansies.
Why should someone be forced to accept transsexualism or any other deviant behavior? Do people doubt the behavior is deviant?
Here’s the definition: “One that differs from a norm, especially a person whose behavior and attitudes differ from accepted social standards.”
Transsexuals are, by definition, deviants. As such, they deserve our sympathy, but they have no right to demand our acceptance or force us to alter our behaviors to cater to their personal problems. Yet, the deviants will not be happy until all dissenting opinions are silenced (as though that will make them normal—it will not).
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.