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Posted on 07/07/2008 11:24:16 PM PDT by dila813
PORTLAND, Ore. -- The wind huffed, and it puffed, and it nearly caused major problems in the Northwest's electrical grid last week.
Power managers say they have some fixing to do.
A surge of wind last Monday afternoon jumped far beyond levels forecast by operators of Oregon's burgeoning wind-farm industry, sending more power into the regional grid than it could handle.
The Bonneville Power Administration is responsible for adjusting hydropower generation levels to accommodate the power from wind turbines so the system isn't overloaded.
It realized by Monday evening that it could no longer handle the surge without increasing spills of water through hydroelectric dams to levels dangerous to fish. Spilling the water keeps it from the hydropower generators.
Generally, spills are needed to help juvenile salmon make their way downriver, although too much water can prove lethal.
(Excerpt) Read more at kgw.com ...
DRILL NOW! Stop the Madness
See how efficient wind power is? Time to blow up the hydroelectric dams-they obviously aren’t needed anymore. /s
As long as the wind blows, that is.
I can’t believe they didn’t plan for exactly this eventuality. Too busy patting themselves on the back for being fashionably green, I guess.
Oregon. Sigh.
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Aren’t there some switches somebody could throw at times like this?
i knew 2 liberals once their names were
WILLY AND NILLY
nice couple...yet somehow intellectually vague and indistinct..
Now that IS funny.
When this happens in Scandanavia, people get to charge their electric cars for free.
You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
A couple of spotted owls or eagles chopped up on the ground may take some "wind" out of the eco sails.
Wind power is increasing. The problem is that it needs a cushion somewhere to absorb overloads. Right now that is coming from reducing hydro-electric output.
Could increased consumption also accomplish the same thing? Maybe we can actually look to a brighter future.
Spill at a hydro facility can result in a variety of problems, including nitrogen saturation of the water downstream from the spill site, non-optimal water temperature below the spill site, and some other conditions.
Historically, water coming off the spillway and plunging deep into a pool of water will take air (mostly nitrogen) with it and the pressure of the water at depth will cause some of the nitrogen gas to go into solution in the water causing problems for fish gills that try to separate the oxygen from the water but end up getting too much nitrogen.
I love your about me page.
Free energy, isn't free.
If you think public housing projects are good quality and a financial bargain, wait till Congress, the greenies 'fix' the energy in this country. Arabs on one side, Democrats on another.
The power that a windmill produces is directly proportional to the windspeed cubed (windspeed to the 3rd power). Thats a problem because a 20% loss in windspeed can relate to a 50% loss in power. Thus its necessary to keep some “spinning reserve” online at all times to pick up the slack when the windspeed drops. I think we are probably better off just using the power from the powerplants that we keep as “spinning reserve”.
Could the problem be in this instance, that the wind farms get Gov’t $$$$$ (tax breaks, subsidies, etc) dependant on output thereby making those who own and run these eyesores reluctant to shunt off output?
Just askin’.
I think there are other measures that could have taken to keep the grid regulated, unless it really was just wind and hydro. But I doubt that’s the case - need to check.
Nice explanation - I agree that they ought to be reserve only.
A fish dies by his mouth....eat more salmon and there is no longer a problem.
I believe that Audubon has said they were not a significant threat. At least that’s what I remember from the Kennedy attempt to stop the wind farm in their backyard. It seems to me that even PETA (which is as far out on the lunatic fringe as you can get) said they were not a problem. As far as I’m concerned, if it’s cost effective and reasonable in the given location, I’m all for it. But a little common sense in the engineering would make it look less moronic.
Personally, I’m going to put sails on my Toyota Sienna. So if you see a big-ass red, white and blue spinnacre tacking the wrong way down I-95 in the Boston area, that’ll be me. And yes, my cup holders will have gimbal mounts.
Hydro is what 5x or 10x more efficent than wind, yet it's hydro power being thrown away?
The baseload is simply the amount that experience has demonstrated will be needed all the time. Large coal fired plants, atomic power plants, or hydroelectric dams fall into that category. Oil and gas are more properly used for variable power needs.
Wind power, however, comes and goes. It would be better to balance it against another variable power source, e.g. a gas fired turbine for example, but in the West (particularly California) gas fired turbines are all used to generate power for baseload needs.
Hydro is a terrible source to use in balance with windpower. No doubt that's well known to the power operators who probably think of it as a temporary expedient until enough windowpower is online to serve as it's own balance.
These water surges are deadly for all salmon and steelhead and seem to be even more deadly for the Silver/Coho smolts. They like to spend about a year leisurely going down stream feeding like trout. That way they gain in size and strength.
If they get caught in these surges of water that leisure trip disappears.
So they shut down the cheapest electricity to accommodate the greenie weenies expensive boondoggle that is only there because of subsidies which we get to pay for twice. Once through our tax dollars and then again by higher electric rates.
WHAT A COUNTRY!
When I read the reality behind these surge problems, which you posted below, I remember the cartoon where Green eco freaks were hunted in the future.
“The Bonneville Power Administration is responsible for adjusting hydropower generation levels to accommodate the power from wind turbines so the system isn’t overloaded.
So they shut down the cheapest electricity to accommodate the greenie weenies expensive boondoggle that is only there because of subsidies which we get to pay for twice. Once through our tax dollars and then again by higher electric rates.
WHAT A COUNTRY!”
Oregon - The State where Stupid is as stupid does
Windpower can’t balance Windpower. This is only a theory, never even proven in a simulation.
This is something they tell everyone, they just don’t tell you it is vaporware.
not sure what the nitrogen has to do with it, unless there is less oxygen in solution due to the excess nitrogen?
Of course our wind in the NW blows only during daylight unless it’s from a storm. The same time all the people are out driving around in their electric cars. Also the same time all the birds are flying around (if only they could learn they must fly below the blades).
A comment from an American living in Germany. We had a big power outage last year in the north part of the country...which the grid guys originally blamed on a series of switches which didn’t properly function...then four months later after they examined the entire episode...confirmed that it was a massive wind surge in North Germany which started the chain of events. The switches did exactly what they were supposed do....stop a massive surge across the grid. The grid guys have spent months studying this problem and have some fixes in place....but no one is absolutely sure about this. Some folks think as the wind mill operations increase in size...this will be a common problem that you can’t prevent. The curious thing here...is that the down time ranged from two hours to twenty-four hours for areas to recover from last year’s episode.
Then we come to the dead bird situation. They had a documentary on tv last year in Germany...forty-five minute explanation as to how the co-op operations work and function. They had a maintenance guy who shows up at each operation at least twice a week to do PM work. He got out of the car and pulled a plastic bag out....then started picking up dead birds as his first tasking. There were three wind-mills....and he must have picked up eight birds...which he didn’t say if that was average or not. The guy doing the documentary could have removed the bird-walk but he didn’t...trying to be honest that there are negatives about this business.
I can see a reason to commit to wind power and can imagine a grid where ten percent of my power is provided by low-cost windmills. I can’t see fifty percent of my power coming from wind...nor would it be a smart idea that an electrical company allows itself to commit to that kind of operation. I see the same problem with solar power....in that I can only commit to a certain portion of my grid to such degree.
Somebody with math skills should get out a whiteboard and start to explain on TV, why this won't work. Unless we are willing to ride bikes and mopeds to a home with no air conditioning, this will NEVER work. We need nukes. We need and alternative motor fuel. A couple of nukes will produce more than many square miles of solar and wind farms. And they work 24/7, even in the dark with no wind. I've looked into getting solar pannels for my own house and I can't get enough on my land if I used it all to run my house. Not to mention the 20 year payback.
People think I don't want to get out of this mess, but I just can't get the math to work. I like solar and wind and ethanol, but it is just a toy in an all out war. People that want to outlaw SUV's haven't thought that they will be giving up camping, fishing, trailer hauling, etc. How difficult would my life be if I couldn't haul stuff in my pickup? How many would die each year driving golf carts on the highway with loaded 18 wheelers? We aren't going to give up 18 wheelers. How many people rely on recreation in the water and campgrounds? Whole industries would dry up and more importantly, Americans would lose their lifestyles. Frankly, I'm not ready to live like someone in Bangladesh. Drilling may be a temporary solution, but we need time to make the changes we need to make.
The thing that will make me more angry would be to wrangle the gas price back to the $2-$3 level and we just forget about the problem. The problem has been here since the 1970's and we haven't learned yet. We must be self sufficient no matter what the solution.
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