Posted on 07/07/2008 3:15:00 PM PDT by forkinsocket
Under pressure from fundamentalist forms of Islam and bursts of sectarian violence, the most populous Christian community in the Middle East is seeking safety by turning inward, cutting day-to-day social ties that have bound Muslim to Christian in Egypt for centuries, members of both communities say.
Attacks this summer on monks and shopkeepers belonging to Egypt's Coptic Christian minority, and scattered clashes between Muslims and Christians, have compelled many of Egypt's estimated 6 million to 8 million Copts to isolate themselves in a nation with more than 70 million Muslims.
To a degree, the separation will stand as the legacy of one of the longest-serving leaders in the church's history, Pope Shenouda III, some Copts say. Shenouda has strengthened the church as the center of daily Coptic life, making it a bulwark for Christians, during a papacy that has spanned 36 years. Now 85, Shenouda is facing health problems, including a broken leg last month that was repaired in the United States.
Across much of Egypt, Muslims and Christians note a drawing apart of their communities, especially in the working class.
Many say they mourn the loss.
Others say the separation is for the best.
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...
INTREP
First they get isolated, then they’ll be expelled.
It is disgraceful that administrations, past and present have done nothing to defend the Coptic Christians in Egypt.
Egypt is the 2nd largest recipient for American aid. Surely that should give us some leverage. Mubarak comes to town with his hand out (don’t forget, we also roll out the red carpet), and never does the subject of the persecuted Christians in Egypt ever come up by The White House nor by our Congress.
There have been ads in The Washington Times with an appeal to President Mubarak of Egypt when he does come to Washington which reads: STOP THE KIDNAPPING, RAPE, AND FORCED-CONVERSION OF YOUNG COPTIC CHRISTIAN GIRLS (with the blessings of the Egyptian Police forces.)
Shame on us and shame on the United Nations.
They’re mostly the same people, most of the Egyptians just converted to Islam & they all adopted Arabic.
What happens to dhimmis in nations just conquered by jihad, is not properly described as 'just converted'. Being made second class citizens in your own nation, being forced to pay heavy financial penalties, and especially by having the interlopers being given a semi-monopoly of the means of reproduction through Muslims having multiple wives and concubines is not 'just converting'. In any case, for what it is worth, the Copts seem to be definitely darker in color than the Muslims to me in general. This could be explainable from the fact that the Egyptians are Nilotic in ancestry, not Semitic.
Even Muslim Egyptians are sometimes aware that they are not exactly Arabs by blood. It bothers few, however, because a) being Arab is more prestigious in Islam & b) Arab is more of a tribe anyway than a bloodline, the way its understood in the ME. The Copts could appear darker simply because its a small population breeding amongst themselves for a while & have passed on darkened skin. But the Muslim Egyptians are not invading Arabs. They are Egyptians too, same as the Copts. Whatever “real” Arab blood they have, its not much more than what the Copts themselves have.
Same as with the Shi’a in Lebanon. Some attempt to say that they are not native Phoenicians but Arab invaders. Nah, they’re the same blood as the rest of us, just Muslim.
I had always read that the Christian Copts are “those descended from the ancient Pharaonic blood”.
Early Christianity was very strong in the land of Egypt.
When Arab Muslims conquered Alexandria in the 10th century A.D., the first two things they did was to exterminate the Alexandrian Jews, and to burn down the Alexandrine Library (no, it wasn’t Caesar’s fault).
Therefore, human history would begin only with the rise of Islam, thanks to this murderous pack of bloody savages!
Or so they thought.
Don’t you know that persecution of Orthodox Christians is not important to our State Department?
Coptic Christians...Who cares?
The Armenian Genocide...well, we won’t even consider a resolution CALLING it a genocide. After all, it’s perfectly normal for a million and a half people to disappear in a a couple years, right? Plus, we can’t offend those peace-loving Turks who brutally murdered them, anyway. Especially since they let us use their base at Incirlik to insert troops...oh wait, they stabbed us in the back.
We ignored the deaths of millions of Serbs over the 20th Century in Yugoslavia. The Serbs were our only allies, and in fact rescued 500 of our downed Airman. The Croats and Albanians allied with Nazi Germany. The Albanians single handedly wiped out the rich Jewish heritage of the Balkans. When the country broke apart on Tito’s death, Serbia finally got the upper hand. And we bombed them into submission for it. After all, the deaths of millions of Serbian Orthodox people are okay, but 10,000 Albanians die, and we have to bomb Belgrade into dust. On Orthodox Easter, no less. After all, the Serbs were attacking the Albanian “separatists”, and we had to defend them. And here are some fine examples of our “concern” for Serbian Orthodox monasteries:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdQHDL5PE_s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItONcp0nlyo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMbixbm0OV4&feature=related
Yeah, but so are the Muslims.
Until European invasions, Egyptians were barely aware of their older history. It was all considered nothing compared to Islam & even something to be ashamed of. Europeans were the ones who took an interest in ancient Egypt & basically taught Egyptians their own heritage.
“the most populous Christian community in the Middle East is seeking safety by turning inward, cutting day-to-day social ties that have bound Muslim to Christian in Egypt for centuries”
First, the ghetto.
Next the crosses they will be required to wear to idenitify their religious affiliation.
Then the camps.
I teach with a woman in her 30s whose family came here 30 years ago. When people ask her what’s a Copt she usually says the oldest Christians in the world. She tells me that the numbers of Copts in Egypt are undercounted and they are closer to 20% of the population than 10%.They suffer greqt discrimination that was not present during the tiles of Naser and Sadat.
It is what happens when a country is conquered and it’s people turned into second class citizens who have to pay excessive taxes for the right to even exist, can be killed at the whim of their masters and have their women taken as concubines. There was no “allowing” about it- they had no choice.
See my #8.
The persecuted Copts were the original inhabitants. Egypt, before the Islamic invasion in 641 A.D. was not an Arab country. Many of us are under a mistaken impression that Egyptians are Arabs. Mohammed Atta, the ringleader of the 9/11 attacks who led a group of Arabs was an Egyptian. So also was the Cairo born Yasser Arafat, who deceived the world by posing as a Palestinian. Both these scoundrels certainly considered themselves to be Arabs, as do the millions of Egyptians today. But little do they realize that apart from the few Arab invaders who traumatized Byzantine ruled Egypt in the 7th century, none of them are descendants of Bedouin Arabs. They descend from the Pharaohs (Firaun) who built the classic Egyptian civilization along the Nile valley in beautiful cities like Luxor, Memphis, Karnak and Thebes.
See: History of Jihad against Egyptian Coptic Christians , and The Christian Coptic Church of Egypt
They do realize that. It was only under Nasser’s pan-Arabism that the Egyptian people fully accepted becoming Arabs. That’s because Arab is not a bloodline, but tribal - as it is understood in the ME. In the West, to be an Arab means to be a descendent of the original tribes of Arabia. In the ME, to be an Arab is to speak Arabic & have Arabic culture. A common cliche among Arabs is “if you speak Arabic, you’re an Arab”. There’s more to it, of course. A Russian who learns Arabic won’t be called an Arab. But the expression touches on the definition of Arab as understood by Arabs themselves - that the most important part of being an Arab is speaking Arabic, not bloodline. This is the reason Egyptians, Palestinians, Lebanese, & Syrians are considered Arabs.
Most common answer from Egyptians about this is “I am Egyptian & an Arab.” & they claim credit for both ancient Egyptian civilization & current Arab civilization.
By the way, I don’t see the point of starting off the paragraph by saying that the Copts are the original inhabitants & then ending it with admitting that the Muslim Egyptians are as native as the Copts. They’re all the same blood. The Copts are being persecuted by their own people, not Bedouin from Arabia. Most of the pharaohs’ descendants are America-hating rabid Muslims.
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