Posted on 07/01/2008 6:13:59 PM PDT by driftdiver
SAN JOSE, Calif. -- The nation's largest Presbyterian denomination on Friday (June 27) cracked open the door to ordaining non-celibate gay and lesbian clergy, though the decades-old fight is far from over.
Delegates at the Presbyterian Church (USA) meeting here voted 54 percent to 46 percent to remove a clause in their constitution that requires clergy to be either married and faithful or single and chaste.
But the action still needs approval by a majority of the denomination's 173 regional bodies, called presbyteries, and similar moves in recent years have twice failed to win ratification on the local level.
In a related move, delegates approved an "authoritative interpretation" of church rules on gay clergy, a move that was meant to piece back together a delicate compromise forged two years ago that was rejected by the church's highest court.
Under the new interpretation, gay and lesbian clergy would be allowed to declare a conscientious objection to rules that would otherwise prohibit them. Local bodies could then choose to ordain them, or deny them access to the pulpit.
(Excerpt) Read more at pewforum.org ...
Thats not even bringing up the gay issue. These new rules allow a womanizing man to say the bible means anything he wants because he objects not being able to commit adultery.
Which of course is why I belong to the PCA!
susie
Is a split in the Presbyterian Church on the horizon?
The last straw for most Presbyterians was the Confession of 1967 when the PCUSA (then United Presbyterian Church) made a hard left and stepped outside of orthodox Christian teachings. It’s a shame to see another mainline Protestant Church endorse sodomy, but it comes as no surprise since the denomination has been apostate for many years - they are Presbyterian in polity only.
If you are looking for a true Presbyterian Church there are several other Presbyterian denominations that hold true to biblical doctrine and still hold to the historic confessions.
There are already two different Presbyterian denominations. PCA which is quite conservative (aka biblical) and PCUSA which is moving into liberal lala land. People are leaving PCUSA in droves which seems to be speeding up the movement to the left.
Splitting will be tough as many of the properties are owned by the denomination and not the individual church.
Already happened.....Early 70’s, the PCA was formed out of the split. The PCA is the “conservative” denomination and the PCUSA the apostate one.....
.
Guess when one I’m a deacon in?
Just one of many reasons why I am no longer a Presbyterian.
The denomination owns the church and the property, so the churches that dont agree with the greater PCUSA have to face the choice of staying and trying to change it, or leaving and giving up MILLIONS in assets ...... Should be a choice based in principle, but still a tough financial side of that decision...
Guess which one I used to be a elder in?? Past tense
I was young and naive. We were having a meeting to discuss the churches stance on homosexuals and abortion. I spent days doing research to make sure I was really doing the right thing.
Come to the meeting my first question was to the pastor and was “what does the bible say”. Only about 1/3 of the elders seem to care. The rest were more concerned with what their jobs would think or refused to take a stand.
The split already happened. All that's left in the PCUSA are the liberals, the folks that love stained glass and stone more than marble, and the folks that have managed to bury their heads in the sand.
Because I'm a deacon???? . :o)
Exactly, adultery is now legal under the laws of man as is cohabitation and fornication. Have at it, do as thou will so long as ye divest from Zionist Israel < /PCUSA >
What is sad is that you have a lot of people, particularly older folks, that don’t realize what their church believes in anymore.
I recall a story of an elderly lady that was taken in by a concerned friend of hers. She met with her pastor of many years and proceeded to ask questions as to what he believed - basic things like do you believe in a physical ressurection. She left the pastor’s office in tears.
Mainline protestant churches are perhaps our biggest mission field, as you have thousands of people attending church on Sunday, thinking they are doing the right thing, yet never hearing the gospel preached.
Your count is way off. OPC, PCA, ARP, EPC (from more conservative to more liberal), plus the RPCNA and a handful of others that I'm not sure where to place on the chart.
“She met with her pastor of many years and proceeded to ask questions as to what he believed - basic things like do you believe in a physical ressurection.”
My Pastor of the time told me of some sad data. That roughly 67% of Presbyterian ministers believed the bible was the infallible word of God. If I recall correctly only about 50% of the pastors surveyed believed that Jesus was the Son of God.
Pretty depressing. The Pastor was great, he moved on to a different church which wasn’t as liberal. Egyptian guy, first sermon I heard of his was about the Exodus. He took special joy at baptizing ex muslims as he did on occasion.
Sheesh, I guess ignorance is bliss. I’m baptist now anyway.
I guess THESE Presbyterians (the ones who want to allow the gay lifestyle) never really read SCREWTAPE LETTERS by C. S. Lewis.
I don’t think they’ve read the bible either.
Can the conservative denomination put the properties in the name of each church in case you are infiltrated again?
Probably not....(sigh)...
Equally sad is you are starting to see liberalism creep into the Evangelical churches, particularly the ones that are chasing after the next fad to try and stay relevant and hip. They are so afraid of offending "seekers" that they have softened their message to where it isn't much different to what you are hearing in the pulpits of the mainline churches.
I believe that PCA & OPC churches are owned at the congregational level. SOmebody correct me if they know otherwise
There are almost that many flavors of Southern Baptist.
PCA and EPC both have constitutional protections allowing a congregation to leave with its property. (Subject to repayment of any formal loans). I’m not familiar with the rules of the OPC (I didn’t spot a relevant provision in a quick scan of the BCO http://opc.org/BCO/FG.html )
I would note that some PCUSA churches have successfully withdrawn with their property. It depends upon the state law, the real estate documents, and the absence of a written trust agreement.
Thank you for the info. One of my friends in grad school was a Presbyterian, but he never mentioned that there was such a definite split.
That's actually fairly rare in the PCUSA; more common, but not universal in the ECUSA.
Guess when one I’m a deacon in?
Just so long as you aren't one of those PCA 'deaconesses' or 'commissioned female deacons' which seem to be popular in urban areas of the northeast and on the west coast.
I’m always sad to read about the decline of the PCUSA. I grew up in this denomination but left several years ago, mainly because of abortion. Now I’m a proud member of the conservative Wesleyan denomination.
The Wesleyan church I joined is thriving. You have to go early to get a seat...
Our Presbyterian Church wants to hire this one as the head of Christian education! I’m ready to get out.
http://www.hds.harvard.edu/afa/meet_students/student_profiles/cisse.html
This is why I attended a PCA while I attended college, and won’t even consider a PCUSA while I’m looking right now.
I actually agonized about leaving the PCUSA because of being a member my entire life. It turned out to be the best thing because now I have peace of mind. I know that my offering won’t pay for a pastor’s abortion...
IMO the mainline churches have been taken over at the highest levels by very liberal democrats. They are in a state of decline...The elderly members are dying, and young people don’t seem to be attending.
There are organizations within the PCUSA that are fighting these liberal changes, but there is a continued loss of membership. Belonging to a mainline church today is like being part of the democrat party because of the liberal agenda. IMO...
(Dictator)Robert Mugabe: Presbyterian financial beneficiary
“Mugabe came to power brandishing machetes, bullets and Presbyterian Church (USA) dollars. A self-avowed Marxist, he wooed the World Council of Churches and its Presbyterian partner into believing that he was an agent of liberation. For mainline denominational leaders, that made him a savior of sorts and a worthy recipient of $85,000 from church offering plates. Liberation theology was, after all, the cause du jour.”
Entire article:
http://www.layman.org/
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