Ex-polygamist Dan Fischer is a thorn in the side of FLDS

Los Angeles Times ^ | June 30, 2008 | By Miguel Bustillo, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

[UCANSEE2]

SANDY, UTAH -- The polygamist sect preached that Dan Fischer was a heretic who had turned his back on God's chosen children.

....

But for Enos Deloy Steed, who was banished at age 17 for kissing a girl, Fischer was like a guardian angel, the kindest man he had ever met.

....

"He's a remarkable man," Utah Atty. Gen. Mark Shurtleff said of Fischer. "He has done more for the lost boys than everyone else combined. I know he doesn't like to brag about it, but he has spent millions."

[UCANSEE2]

Here is an interesting side article about the FLDS Lost Boys, and a man who is willing to spend his own 'fortune' to help them.

[MEGoody]

These are the things the FLDS members and apologists don’t want people to know about.

[JRochelle]

Sounds like this guy is just a disgruntled person who was kicked out, who has an ax to grind.

s/

[senorita]

That was the first article I have read regarding anyone who is willing to help the Lost Boys. I can’t imagine what it takes to “deprogram” these people after years of religious guilt and intimidation.

At one time in my youth I attended a church that was ultra conservative Baptist. The women in the church were told it was a sin to wear pants or have short hair. They would actually have baseball games and snow skiing trips with girls wearing long skirts. It was pretty outrageous.

But they are very clannish, and don’t associate with other churches. That’s the key point; keep your membership away from the world. Then they have complete control over your entire lifestyle. I finally got out of that. But it certainly wasn’t as crazy as this FLDS cult.

[Nevadan]

re: Fischer learned in 1999 that his 72-year-old father had been stripped of his three wives by sect leaders for supposed disloyalty. FLDS foes estimate that 250 plural families have been similarly torn apart, with wives redistributed like heads of cattle and children told to call a stranger Father.

Ironically, the FLDS complains about the horrors of ripping families apart, but the “prophet” routinely does it to maintain control of anyone who questions authority and also to rid the community of young men who will be in competition with the old geezers wanting to add more young girls to their harems.

[Old Mountain man]

Church discipline is always a thorny subject. Isn’t it wonderful that the churches are no longer able to burn people at the stake or have them beheaded?

[rightazrain]

BTTT

[Saundra Duffy]

“Fischer, 59, secretly practiced polygamy for years in the Salt Lake City suburbs, maintaining three wives and fathering 16 children. But he chafed under a church leadership that he considered increasingly authoritarian and “goofy,” and he broke free in 1995 with his second wife, Leenie, the one he truly adored.”

Is he going to be prosecuted for his seedy past and all of his children put in foster homes?

[Saundra Duffy]

Thanks for pointing out that many denominations/religions have odd/oppressive practices - but that doesn’t mean the authorities should raid the church at gunpoint and snatch all the children away. It was still a free country last time I checked. You left that Baptist church and any FLDS can walk away, too. Like I said, it’s a free country. What is not right is for the government to crack down on religion. The Constitution forbids it - freedom of religion, freedom of association, freedom of speech. I love America.

[senorita]

Apparently you didn’t read my post very carefully. I never made any comment regarding the raid on the FLDS compound. I only commented on the fact that once a religious cult has complete control on your lifestyle, it is difficult to return to a somewhat normal lifestyle.

[UCANSEE2]

“Church discipline is always a thorny subject.”

Does church discipline trump state laws, and the Constitution?

[UCANSEE2]

Hello Mrs. Duffy.
How are you today?

“Is he going to be prosecuted for his seedy past and all of his children put in foster homes?”

I went back and reread the entire article, again, just to be sure. I can find no where that it states his children went into foster homes. The way it reads, he left the FLDS ‘family’ and took his immediate family with him.

He lives at a ranch with his family.

It doesn’t say whether that included any children from the other wives, or if they even had any.

The answer to your question is, IMHO, no.

The fact that he is spending a large part of his fortune on rescuing the victims who were torn from their mother’s arms, and women who were abused by those following Warren’s doctrines, and who had to submit to his ‘orders’ or else, is a very Christian thing to do.

[Alice in Wonderland]

. . . and all of his children put in foster homes?

I read the article twice and missed the part about foster homes both times. Could you please direct me to the section where it states that? Or do you have personal knowledge about Mr. Fischer? I would have thought his wives and children would have been reassigned to other, more worthy, men by Warren Jeffs.

Then a few years after Dan Fischer left Warren Jeffs threw out his 72 year old father. Wow, just wow.

I think it's great that Mr. Fischer has used his fortune to help these children who were thrown out of their homes, like trash, by their parents with little to no education and nothing more than the shirts upon their backs.

[Alice in Wonderland]

Thanks for pointing out that many denominations/religions have odd/oppressive practices - but that doesn’t mean the authorities should raid the church at gunpoint and snatch all the children away. It was still a free country last time I checked. You left that Baptist church and any FLDS can walk away, too. Like I said, it’s a free country. What is not right is for the government to crack down on religion. The Constitution forbids it - freedom of religion, freedom of association, freedom of speech. I love America.

This thread is about the man who is helping the lost boys. Can you stay on topic?

[Saundra Duffy]

The article reads, “Fischer, 59, secretly practiced polygamy for years in the Salt Lake City suburbs, maintaining three wives and fathering 16 children”

This is interesting and a great point. Fischer “secretly practiced polygamy for years . . .” I just wondered outloud if he is going to be prosecuted and if his children should be rounded up and put in foster homes. Why is that controversial to you?

[Tribune7]

Isn’t it wonderful that the churches are no longer able to burn people at the stake or have them beheaded?

It wasn't churches that did that. It was government that did that. This is especially true with regard to the witch hunts which were generally opposed by the churches (at least the Catholic church).

Or consider the Spanish Inquisition -- it was initially opposed by the Vatican, which was finally coerced into consent by threats from the Spanish Crown to withhold military protection from the Turks, and even then it was still considered more fair and merciful than the royal tribunals.

There is a myth being promoted that the cause of injustice and oppression is Christianity, when the truth is that Christianity is the biggest bulwark against them.

[Old Mountain man]

Not in the United States of America.

[Old Mountain man]

I am so relieved to know this. I shall immediately revise all of my history books. Does this also apply to Muslims?

[Tribune7]

I shall immediately revise all of my history books.

Probably a bad idea if you are selling your history books to public schools or trying to get the dino media to promote them. OTOH, if you want your history books to be accurate, absolutely!!

Does this also apply to Muslims?

There is a myth being promoted that the cause of injustice and oppression is Christianity, when the truth is that Christianity is the biggest bulwark against them. Note: Islam is not Christianity.

[Old Mountain man]

Well, I am glad I didn’t identify what particular church discipline I was referencing! Some folks would also say that the FLDS is not a Christian Church.

[UCANSEE2]

“I just wondered outloud if he is going to be prosecuted and if his children should be rounded up and put in foster homes.”

And I answered your question.

---

” Why is that controversial to you?”

I said I thought it was very Christian of him to spend much of his fortune helping those children and women.

Was I not clear?

---

[Saundra Duffy]

He kept his favorite wife. What happened to the other two and the children.

I’m sorry but I think this guy is a hypocrite, and a major one at that. He is making it his life’s work to destroy the FLDS? Don’t you find it just a tad bit ironic?

[UCANSEE2]

Thank you.

I appreciate honest, and direct answers.

[Old Mountain man]

I have been called, among other things, quite blunt.

[Alice in Wonderland]

Some folks would also say that the FLDS is not a Christian Church.

The Catholic Church does not recognize the LDS as a Christian Church. I doubt that they'd recognize the FLDS as one either:

In 2001 the Roman Catholic Church declared that Mormon converts have to be rebaptized. The Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith declared that baptisms in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are not the baptism that Christ instituted. The Vatican said Mormons are not Christians. The ruling was a departure from the Catholic Church's usual practice of recognizing the baptisms of converts from most other churches. The Vatican held that the Mormon view of the nature of God is too different from Catholicism.

In 2008 the Vatican Congregation for Clergy directed all parishes to keep the Latter-day Saints from microfilming and digitizing information contained in their registers. The step was taken to prevent the Latter-day Saints from using records -- such as baptismal documentation -- to posthumously baptize by proxy the ancestors of church members.

[UCANSEE2]

Yeah. Me too, sometimes.

I was blunt in describing your behavior the other day.
It wasn’t my best moment.

However, I don’t think you are not aware of how you come off to others. I think you have your own reasons for it.

We all have reasons, for the way we conduct ourselves.

But, I’m just leading us away from the subject of the thread, instead of toward, it when I get too blunt.

So, What do you think of the article?

[UCANSEE2]

“That was the first article I have read regarding anyone who is willing to help the Lost Boys. “

Yes. I believe you are correct.

---

“I can’t imagine what it takes to “deprogram” these people after years of religious guilt and intimidation.”

According to the stories of Carolyn Jessop, Flora Jessop, and this man, it takes either ‘escaping’ or being ‘excommunicated’ from the FLDS, and being allowed to see what real freedom, and Constitutional rights are all about.

---

[Alice in Wonderland]

He is making it his life’s work to destroy the FLDS . .

You and I must have read two different stories.

I read about a man who took a good hard look at his 'religion', decided it wasn't for him, and left. As he said, "he chose to break the cycle". In retaliation, Warren Jeffs went after and destroyed the man's elderly father.

The man, a dentist by trade, made lots and lots of money. Fiddling around in his basement, he came up with a tooth whitener, among other things. He founded the Ultradent company.

He also began a charity, the Diversity Foundation, which provides shelter, support, and college for many of the cast-outs of the FLDS, male and female, including Carolyn Jessop.

A private investigator he hired tracked down and persuaded child bride, Elissa Wall, to go public, which resulted in Warren Jeffs conviction.

He feels empathy for his kin, yet abhors the abuses that exist in the FLDS. He went to Texas after the raid. "I recommended to CPS that everything possible be done to reunite these children with their mothers as soon as was reasonably possible," he said. "I can understand, however, CPS's justifiable concern that these mothers have to be strong enough that they can prevent their child from being abused."

He said it is critical that the fathers of the children taken in the raid also come forward and give DNA samples, even if it does reveal they fathered children with underage girls. "We cannot accept the marriage of underage girls as a religious right," he said, adding that the states have a duty to protect children from abuse.

---

Just how has he made it his life’s work to destroy the FLDS?

What would you do?

Imagine you have been raised in a place that isolated you from the world. You have been taught that "Outsiders" are in league with the devil - not to be trusted. You have never been to a movie, nor watched TV. Your education is limited. You come from a huge, polygamous family with powerful family ties. You are taught that your church, community, and family will care for you and provide all the support you need.

Until . . . one day your religious prophet pronounces you to be a worthless sinner and casts you out. Suddenly you have no friends. Your family will now have nothing to do with you. You are run out of town, possibly beaten in the process. You find yourself in a strange "outside" community. You are a lost teenaged boy; alone, bewildered, wearing everything you own.

What - Would - You - Do?

[UCANSEE2]

“Sounds like this guy is just a disgruntled person who was kicked out, who has an ax to grind.”

Actually, it isn’t sarcasm, it’s truth, with the exception of the word ‘just’.

I think it’s his motivation, and from what I read, he has every reason to grind that axe.

That he pursues it by legal means, and at the same time spends his own money providing a home for the victims, both male and female, is what is important.

[hocndoc]

"Thanks for pointing out that many denominations/religions have odd/oppressive practices - but that doesn’t mean the authorities should raid the church at gunpoint and snatch all the children away. It was still a free country last time I checked."

Ridiculous statement. No one has the right to be "oppressive."

[hocndoc]

Here's a link to an earlier article from the Deseret News in May, outlining Dr. Fischer's attempts to mediate between CPS and the FLDS community.

Fischer said he told both sides that solutions will not be easy to come by. "I recommended to CPS that everything possible be done to reunite these children with their mothers as soon as was reasonably possible," he said. "I can understand, however, CPS's justifiable concern that these mothers have to be strong enough that they can prevent their child from being abused."

Fischer said it is critical that the fathers of the children taken in the raid also come forward and give DNA samples, even if it does reveal they fathered children with underage girls.

"We cannot accept the marriage of underage girls as a religious right," he said, adding that the states have a duty to protect children from abuse.

[hocndoc]

The Statute of limitations has probably run out. Nevertheless, it appears that he’s doing what he can to make reparations.

[CAluvdubya]

any FLDS can walk away, too. Like I said, it’s a free country. What is not right is for the government to crack down on religion. The Constitution forbids it - freedom of religion, freedom of association, freedom of speech. I love America.

Every time I read one of your posts about the FLDS, Warren Jeffs and Merril Jessop come to mind.

[hocndoc]

Shame on you.

[Saundra Duffy]

It’s still a free country, thank the Good Lord.

[Saundra Duffy]

“Fischer, 59, secretly practiced polygamy for years in the Salt Lake City suburbs, maintaining three wives and fathering 16 children. But he chafed under a church leadership that he considered increasingly authoritarian and “goofy,” and he broke free in 1995 with his second wife, Leenie, the one he truly adored.”

\What would I do? Well, first of all I am not a man, but if I were one of the wives left behind I’d be pretty PO’d, wouldn’t you? (Not to mention the children.)

Furthermore, a Scripture comes to mind about casting the first stone. This is the problem I have with ex FLDS writing books and running programs with the aim of hurting their ex friends - the authorities and CPS use these books and testimonies and paint the entire FLDS community with the same broad stroke. In this country, people are innocent until proven guilty. In this country, we have individual rights protected by the Constitution.

[hocndoc]

Freedom is liberty, not license.

The freedom *not* to have your rights infringed, to *not* have others act on you. The freedom to act is limited by that same freedom of any you would act upon.

No one is free to oppress. Neither in the name of religion, speech or association.

And you should feel a deep shame for calling Dr. Fischer a hypocrite.

[hocndoc]

Which broad stroke? The one where the FLDS follows a “prophet” that is a convicted child abuser?

[UCANSEE2]

Yes. The same text was in this article.

All those things that he is doing, and the way he is doing them, just justifies that his ‘word’ on was and is going on at the YFZ Ranch, should get the highest respect.

He was kicked out of FLDS.
His father was kicked out of FLDS.
He was polygamous. His father was polygamous.
He had three wives. He knew exactly what was going on.

He now takes in Lost Boys, and Escaped spiritual brides, and provides for them. And they ‘know’ what was going on at the YFZ Ranch.

He served as mediator between the FLDS and State Authorities He sued to get the UEP fund under watchful eyes so Warren couldn’t keep looting it.

---

Now, timewarp.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1999244/posts

?
(read it, you’ll get it. Or you already know.)

[UCANSEE2]

What would you do?
...
...
...

What - Would - You - Do?

---

If I were an FLDS member, or a Mormon, or Baptist, or Catholic, or Presbyterian,Methodist,Jewish,Muslim....

I would take the subject and text of this article

and put it together with this thread.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2034772/posts

Get the thugs out. Get someone in who ‘knows’ the place, inside and out, and who has established himself as a successful leader in business, and who wants to follow the law.

Get someone you ‘know’ you can trust.

And let the healing begin.

[SouthTexas]

Good for him, but I take exception to this statement:

The 10,000-member FLDS "has become the Taliban of America," Fischer said.

They have been accused of a lot of things but I don't think stoning women to death has been one of them.

I thought at first it could be contributed to a liberal columnist since this is from the LA Slimes, but it is clearly attributed to him. As bad as they may seem to be, they are not remotely "the Taliban".

[Saundra Duffy]

“The one where the FLDS follows a “prophet” that is a convicted child abuser?”

The “prophet” is in prison and was not there when the raid took place. The “prophet” has stated that he is not a prophet and never was one.

Why they won’t leave these FLDS people alone now - after all they’ve been though - is a mystery to me. But the witch hunt continues . . .

[UCANSEE2]

The 10,000-member FLDS "has become the Taliban of America," Fischer said.

Depends on his definition of Taliban. If one views the Taliban as religious extremists, then it would seem to apply.

As far as the FLDS, I have only what the media has allowed us to know, and our fellow posters thoughts. Mr. Fischer is one person who really 'knows' what was being done by Warren and his leaders, so he may have good reason for the comparison.

We don't know.

[UCANSEE2]

P.S. Or maybe he just biased.

[hocndoc]

Another ridiculous response. (Although you still have not responded to repeated questions about Lorene and Rulen’s lying about their daughter.)

Testimony from mothers and fathers in this case demonstrates that cult members follow Jeffs in spite of his conviction and imprisonment. In fact, you’ll remember that the convicted child molester is “perfect,” according to one mother last month.

These are the people who stood around while Jeffs posed for photos with his brides and with the 15 year old mother of his child):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/03/usa.religion
“Documents seized during the raid showed that Jeffs, 52, had married four girls under the age of 14, one in Utah in 2004 and three at the Texas compound. Recovered photographs also appeared to show Jeffs kissing his young brides. One shows him with his 15-year-old wife at the birth of their baby.”

And the same people who watched Jeffs marry a 12 year old:
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/24/shocking-pics-of-jeffs-shown-in-hearing/
“Rulon Daniel Jessop, the girl’s brother and the infant’s father, said he sees nothing wrong with his children being in the same house with underage “sister wives” of much older men. “It seemed a little wild to me,” Jessop testified, “but you see a lot more wild things driving down the streets of the city at night. I do not consider a girl kissing a man sexual abuse.”

“Jessop identified the girl, who is listed in FLDS bishop’s records as being born July 3, 1994, and is shown in pictures dated July 27, 2006, as his sister, Merrianne.

“Jessop’s attorney, Pat Matassarin, dismissed the photos.

“For one thing, the guy who did it is in jail,” she said, referring to Jeffs and adding that the actions of a family member should not be used to remove his child.

“In what is believed to be the first confirmation of a long-held belief by sect observers, Louisa Bradshaw, the infant’s mother, testified that Jeffs lived in a home on the YFZ Ranch, northeast of Eldorado in Schleicher County. He has since been imprisoned, convicted of arranging marriages between a 14-year-old girl and her 19-year-old cousin.

“The revelation came during two hours of tense, inconsistent, often confusing testimony by Bradshaw. She frequently told CPS attorneys she does not know or could not remember answers to simple questions such as what room in her dormitory-style house on the YFZ Ranch was next to hers, or who attended her wedding ceremony.

“Asked later whether she believes a grown man kissing a girl on the mouth is appropriate, Bradshaw replied: “Everyone has their free agency.””

[SouthTexas]

Bias he is entitled to, comparing them to the Taliban is juvenile.

Talk to some of our guys that have been to Afghanistan.

[UCANSEE2]

Or ignorance.

I’m no expert on the behavior, and doctrines, of the Taliban.

Dr. Fischer hasn’t been to Afghanistan. I don’t think any of the Lost Boys have either.

So, I just think it may have been an ignorant use of the word.
In his ‘view’ it may be the same, but we don’t know what particular aspects about the two he considers a link.

[UCANSEE2]

It’s a stormy, windy, rainy night here.
Fast circular torrents of wind racing over the houses, cracking limbs. Last week the wind tore a limb from the tree in the front.

So..... I like storms.

---

Isn’t this Dr. the ‘informant’ the Sheriff had?

[UCANSEE2]

““Everyone has their free agency.”””

Don’t you find that an odd thing for a woman to say?

Is that some code word in their sect?

I wish I could hear one of them explain it.

[UCANSEE2]

I GET IT.

FLDS men have ‘free agency’

FLDS women have ‘be sweet’.

Makes sense to me.