Posted on 06/27/2008 11:10:44 AM PDT by MississippiMan
As I was waiting in the service lounge of an auto dealership a few days ago, I glanced up and saw the following banner on Fox News:
RUSSIAN WARNS ISRAEL NOT TO ATTACK IRAN
This simple line was rather profound in that it demonstrates just how much the world has changed in such a short period of time. While I certainly believed in biblical prophecies twenty years ago, the issue of the Gog/Magog War was a bit abstract. For while it seems crystal clear that Russia is Magog (and Gog its leader during the war), twenty years ago it was hard for me to imagine why Russia would ever invade Israel.
It's not hard anymore. Russia increasingly supports the enemies of Israel and the USA, and in my opinion there is no longer any need for vivid imagination. Common-sense observation will do just fine.
I'm very interested to hear the opinions of others who follow world events specifically as they relate to the fulfillment of biblical prophecy. Do you believe, as do I, that the Magog invasion is now entirely plausible in the immediate to not-distant future?
What about other world events? The continuing alignment of the EU, etc.?
MM
I saw a presentation by a pastor in New Orleans at least 30 years ago that equated Russia with either Gog or Magog. His name was Sammy Tippit. He is still around.
One scenario: Obama is elected president of the United States. Israel attacks the nuclear facilities in Iran. Sleeper cells in the US set off numerous WMD’s in many of our cities. The USA is paralized. Russia and the Arab League attack Israel.
Make that *Obama would be paralyzed and turned white*.
The US military would not be.
John Ankerberg has a 7-part audio series on his website that goes into this subject in great detail. It’s only going to be there for a few more days so if you’re lucky you can still listen to them. Very good listening.
http://www.elshaddaiministries.us/video/eclipsevideo.html
When the CIC is paralyzed, the whole organization is paralyzed.
Somehow I doubt that. Succession would commence.
What support is there for equating Gog/Magog to Russia. The only evidence I’ve ever seen argues for Biblical place names as cognates (Tubal/Tobolsk, etc.). However, we see many examples where this is not the case: Allemeigne (Germany - French), Deutschland (Germany - German).
Are you kidding? You don’t think he’d surround himself with those who think just like him? Obama, as CIC, would do nothing, and his staff would agree with that decision.
"The events surrounding the Battle of Armageddon are clearly described in the Book of Revelation as being totally initiated by God, from heaven. God doesn't need our help to carry out his purposes. He never has. The Bible is clear that judgment belongs to God, including Armageddon, which is his judgment on the corrupt governments and economic systems ruling the earth.
Finally, for any Christian to try and force God's hand and bring about the end would be futile. Jesus’ clear instructions about this to his followers are quite evident: “He who lives by the sword, will die by the sword.” “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were my servants would fight for me. But as it is, my kingdom is from another place.”
“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by His own authority.”
I could go on, but you get the picture. Anyone claiming to be a Christian and yet saying that Christians will have a part to play in bringing about the events leading up to Armageddon is reflecting a fringe viewpoint. It is not biblical, and is not adhered to by most Christians alive at this time in history."
I had the same experience and thoughts when I saw that headline! It’s coming.
I feel like commanders in the field have some protocol to assume responsibility. Martial Law perhaps? They're not going to let the US end because we have weak leadership.
America is no longer a Christian nation.
I certainly agree that we do not have the power to bring about Armageddon or anything similar. That’s God.
I must comment, however, on the incomplete (as usual) passage wherein Jesus says that no one knows the hour or the day. Interesting that so very many choose to latch onto that and ignore the clear instruction that Jesus followed with immediately: That God will provide signs that we may know the SEASON. IOW, we don’t know the exact time, but He’s provided the information we need to discern the era.
MM
During Clinton’s administration there was a massive purge of the senior officer corps,starting in the Navy ans spreading to the rest of the services.Bush inherited that new Clintonian political officer corps which made the Iraq campaign rather more spotty in the first years than it should have been. The first Fallujah was a Clintonian operation. Those officers had to be shaken out before much actual progress could be made. The “surge”is more a result of new officer blood at the top and in the middle than it is of sheer numbers. Some of those Billy Jeff generals are the ex generals now presenting themselves as Military Credibility for the Democrats.
That last point is what's gonna stop them. The commanders you are talking about can't get to the arena.
Well, first there’s the fact that Russia is the most obvious “king of the far north” in relation to Israel, IMHO the only realistic choice.
Also, scholars who studied this issue, some directly in the Septuagint over 150 years ago, and all before there could be any possible reason to work backward to arrive at Russia because of research through a political lens, came to the conclusion that Rosh is Russia, Mescheck is Moscow, and Tubal is Tobolsk, which is on the Tubal River.
Joel C. Rosenberg goes into this issue in pretty good detail in EPICENTER. Chuck Missler (k-house.org) also has lots of convincing material on it. Missler, BTW, is worth checking out on a LOT of biblical issues. Fascinating stuff that you don’t normally think of, like technology in the Bible, etc.
MM
He will for those who understand the Bible and are true Christians. There are many false Christians in this world who are too busy looking to see what they can get away with rather than seeing the signs.
BTW: I agree the signs are there and have felt for some time our generation will witness the end times.
“get to the arena.”
Are you talking about the nuke codes, war room, what?
bump for later read
No, I’m talking about conventional warfare, since the only way those nukes are going off is if the CIC authorizes them. No one other than the CIC can launch nukes.
Makes things a little more interesting.
Joel C. Rosenberg goes into this issue in pretty good detail in EPICENTER.”
________________
A good read, thanks.
Yes, it’s coming and we can see it forming. In the secular news of all places.
I highly recommend a series of novels by Joel C. Rosenberg. They are “The Last Jihad”, “The Last Days”, “The Ezekiel Option”, “The Copper Scroll” and “Dead Heat”. “The Last Jihad”, written prior to 9/11 was prophetic and mind-blowing. Rosenberg has continued to turn out first rate political thrillers in the Tom Clancy tradition with a Bible prophesy twist, yet, not as hokey as Lehay & Jenkin’s “Left Behind” series imho.
I believe it was “The Ezekiel Option” that deals with Gog and Magog war, and the only spoiler I’ll drop is that The Ezekiel Option is Israel’s alternative to the much discussed “Samson Option”. The books offer looks behind the scenes at The White House, NSA, CIA, Mossad as well as keen insight into the Middle East, North Korea and Russia. Rosenberg builds a strong cast of characters and his thinking on geopolitical trends coupled with Bible prophecy is deep, but not preachy. Cover blurbs by Hannity and Limbaugh both offer very high praise. Check out this series and you’ll be stunned.
The Wedding Model
by Chuck Missler
The Wedding Model
In this second article in our series on the Rapture, we will explore another reason why we favor a “pre-tribulation” view of the Harpázô, the “snatching up” of the Church.
All through the Gospels, Jesus relied on the ancient Jewish wedding pattern for many of His parables, climaxing in His promise in the Upper Room in John 14 (as reviewed in our previous article). Many of us miss the full import of these allusions if we aren’t familiar with the model of ancient Jewish wedding practices.
Jewish Wedding
The first step, the Ketubah, or Betrothal, was the establishment of the marriage covenant, usually when the prospective bridegroom took the initiative and negotiated the price (mohair) he must pay to purchase her.
Once the bridegroom paid the purchase price, the marriage covenant was established, and the young man and woman were regarded as husband and wife. From that moment on, the bride was declared to be consecrated or sanctified - set apart - exclusively for her bridegroom. As a symbol of the covenant relationship that had been established, the groom and bride drank from a cup of wine over which the betrothal had been pronounced.
After the marriage covenant was established, the groom left his bride at her home and returned to his father’s house, where he remained separated from his bride for approximately 12 months. This afforded the bride time to gather her trousseau and prepare for married life.
During this period of separation, the groom prepared a dwelling place in his father’s house to which he would later bring his bride. At the end of the period of separation, the bridegroom came - usually at night - to take his bride to live with him. The groom, the best man, and other male escorts left the father’s house and conducted a torch-light procession to the home of the bride.
Although the bride was expecting her groom to come for her, she did not know the time of his coming. As a result, the groom’s arrival was preceded by a shout, which announced her imminent departure to be gathered with him.
After the groom received his bride, together with her female attendants, the enlarged wedding party returned from the bride’s home to the groom’s father’s house, where the wedding guests had assembled.
Shortly after their arrival, the bride and groom were escorted by the other members of the wedding party to the bridal chamber (huppah). Prior to entering the chamber, the bride remained veiled so that no one could see her face.
While the groomsmen and bridesmaids waited outside, the bride and groom entered the bridal chamber alone. There, in the privacy of that place, they entered into physical union for the first time, thereby consummating the marriage that had been covenanted approximately one year earlier.
After the marriage was consummated, the groom came out of the bridal chamber and announced the consummation of the marriage to the members of the wedding party waiting outside. Then, as the groom went back to his bride in the chamber, the members of the wedding party returned to the wedding guests and announced the consummation of the marriage.
Upon receiving the good news, the wedding guests remained in the groom’s father’s house for the next seven days, celebrating with a great wedding feast.
During the seven days of the wedding feast, the bride and groom remained hidden in the bridal chamber (Cf. Genesis 29:21-23, 27-28) for the seven days of the huppah. Afterwards, the groom came out of hiding, bringing his bride with him, but with her veil removed so that everyone could see her.
The Ultimate Bride
The New Testament portrays the Church as the Bride of Christ in Ephesians 5:22-33 (Paul even quotes Genesis 2:24 as the union at the Parousia of the Bridegroom in v.31!); cf. Romans 7:4; 2 Corinthians 11:2; James 4:4. In the opening verses of John 14, the marriage covenant is confirmed. Paul continually reminds us of the purchase price and the covenant by which we, the Bride, are set apart, or sanctified.
Ecclesiology vs. Eschatology
It is this distinctive nature of the Church that is often overlooked by students of prophecy: it is more a matter of ecclesiology than eschatology.
One thing that seems to highlight this distinctiveness is the strange remark Jesus made regarding John the Baptist:
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. -Matthew 11:11
What does that mean? Jesus goes on to explain,
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. - Matthew 11:13
It is John the Baptist that closes the Old Testament, not Malachi. A profound distinction appears to be drawn between the saints of the Old Testament and those of the New.
One of the challenges in fully appreciating Paul’s epistles is the need to understand the staggering and distinctive advantages afforded the Church, in contrast to those of the Old Testament saints. And it is this role as the Bride of the Bridegroom that is emphasized in the parables and in the Book of Revelation.
The Departure of the Bridegroom
The Bridegroom has departed, and His return to gather His Bride is imminent. He has gone to prepare a place for you and me. (He has been at it for 2,000 years! It must be a spectacular abode!)
This very doctrine of “imminence” is taught throughout the New Testament and is a cornerstone of the “pre-tribulational” view: there is no event which is a prerequisite condition for His gathering of His Bride.
The Great Tribulation
There are those who believe the Church will go through the Great Tribulation. In exploring this issue, it is essential to distinguish between persecution, which clearly has been the lot of the Church for 19 centuries, and “the Great Tribulation” of eschatological significance. The persecution - and tribulation - of the Church was clearly promised to us:
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. -John 16:33
The source of this tribulation is the world and, of course, Satan. However, “the Great Tribulation” of eschatological significance is quite another matter.
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. -Matthew 24:21
The context here is clearly Israel. Jesus is quoting from the Old Testament:
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book -Daniel 12:1
Note that “thy people will be delivered”: the focus of the “Great Tribulation” is Israel. That is why it is called “the time of Jacob’s Trouble”:
Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. -Jeremiah 30:7
Jesus (in the Old Testament) explains:
I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me earnestly. -Hosea 5:15
To “return,” He must have left His place! The offence referred to is singular and specific: their rejection of Him. In “their affliction” they will ultimately repent and He will respond.
The Great Tribulation also involves more than the wrath of the world or the wrath of Satan: it involves the indignation and wrath of God. In contrast, the Church has been promised:
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,-1 Thessalonians 5:9
And,
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. -Romans 5:9
And, specifically,
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour [time] of temptation [trial], which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. -Revelation 3:10
Peter also emphasizes,
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: -2 Peter 2:9
Here, Peter is using the judgment upon Sodom and Gomorrah “as an example,” as Jesus also did, in which the prior removal of Lot was a precondition before the angels could do their work.
A complete study of this issue involves careful and diligent study of both the Church (ecclesiology) as well as the eschatology (end time aspects) of the Great Tribulation, which, of course, far exceeds the focus of this brief review. It requires precise definitions of the terms used, and great care to understand how each of the elements of the revealed truth relate to each other.
But the fundamental doctrine of imminence has to be forfeited with any view that requires the Great Tribulation - or any other precedent event - to occur prior to the Rapture.
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. -Luke 21:36
Are you going to escape these things that shall come to pass? If so, how? Or are you relying on the notion that the Lord is “delaying His coming?” This could be a very dangerous presumption. Do your homework. It is important.
http://www.khouse.org/articles/2003/449/
But the comments on this thread presume pre-millenial, pre-trib right?
I couldn’t agree more. Rosenberg’s novels are now automatic buys for me; I don’t even need to see a blurb. His experience inside major political circles gives him a lot of authenticity that others lack, and the fact that a couple of the novels have been eerily prophetic doesn’t hurt a thing.
So, I join you in offering my heartiest recommendation for anyone who likes endtimes thrillers.
MM
I thought that the tribulation came before he final battle.
Thou art correct. Do you think that affects the debate over who the king of the north is? If so, how?
MM
Yes, so do I. The War of Gog/Magog is a different battle from Armageddon.
This is my take: The leader of Russia will lead a coalition of nations against Israel. It's easy to imagine a number of Arab/Persian countries joining, and I wouldn't be surprised to see China there, as well. God intervenes and it's an unimaginable massacre of the attackers.
The battle of Armageddon is the final battle, at the end of the Great Tribulation, in which Christ will defeat the antichrist and his legions, beginning a thousand years of Christ's rule on Earth.
That's my take. Others have other interpretations.
MM
I didn’t either but, I suspected there had to be a plan B, C, D....
It’s amazing what you find if you dig deep enough.
That’s pretty close to what is said to happen in the Valley of Megiddo. Where the allies of Satan will gather to battle the armies of Christ’s return.
This all happens after nuclear exchanges between the East and West.
Don’t know about any difference opinion regarding the “king of the north”. However, as one of my sons has become part of a reformed theology church I’ve begun to hear his description of amillenialism, and I can see that it is quite different from pre-millenialism.
Yes, I have a friend who believes most of the prophecies were fulfilled long ago. I’m among those who believe that the endtime clock could not have begun ticking in earnest before the state of Israel was reborn in 1948.
MM
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