Posted on 06/17/2008 7:15:03 AM PDT by DeweyCA
- Snip-
Evidence from previous and pending cases indicates that the court tends to take an extremely narrow view of people's "free exercise and enjoyment of religion" when they clash with another group's need for equal protection. This would seem particularly true following the In re Marriage Cases ruling, in which the majority equated the ban on same-sex marriage to the now discredited (and unconstitutional) ban on interracial marriages.
Religious liberty claims rarely, if ever, have prevailed in the face of complaints about racial discrimination. Conflicts about the rights of gays and those of religious believers demonstrate that these are not hypothetical fears.
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In each of these cases, and other similar ones, the government has acted in some way to forbid gays and lesbians from being demeaned. But allowing same-sex couples to force religious individuals or organizations to act out of accord with their faith is not cost-free either. Their dignity is no less affected. Unless claims rooted in equal protection under the law are to sweep away claims rooted in freedom of religion, a more sensitive balancing approach is essential.
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Concurring in the May 15 California marriage judgment, Justice Joyce L. Kennard observed that the court's most important role was to preserve constitutional rights "from obliteration by the majority."
If past rulings are any guide, it is religious rights that are likely to be "obliterated" by an emerging popular majority supporting same-sex relationships -- and it seems unlikely that the California courts will intervene. That's a shame.
(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...
It is important to show people that "choice" or "neutrality" is just as much a "religious" position as the Christian position. The gays are imposing their "religious" viewpoint on society. In the process, Christians are losing their freedom to live out their religious viewpoint, and even to voice their viewpoints of opposition to homosexuality.
It is important to see that this article was not written by a religious right pastor. It was written by a Jewish lawyer who specializes in this type of case. He knows what he is talking about.
They can have any friggin' ceremony they want...IT'S NOT A MARRIAGE!!
“by an emerging popular majority”
There’s the incorrect statement in this piece..it ISN’T the majority that wants gay marriage.. it’s the minority... just like most liberal issues... the minority rules in liberal America.
The following document is hereby rendered moot if it confilcts with Homosexuality. WE THE PEOPLE,
I will not attend a Church that marries gays. Let them marry in a court room. I don't go around whizzin’ on gay parades and they should provide the same respect with the alter.
If you and I refuse to attend Churches that weds gays, the Church will think twice about doing it.
As far as the State goes, let the gays marry in a court room. Gays have the right to be miserable like the rest of the married people do.
And I don't really care what the State says about gays. My opinion about homosexuality basically comes from the Bible and not the State.
The radical extremist left is working hard to DESTROY all forms of measurement of their criminal, anti-American agenda and human behavior in general. This has been their goal for a long time. Christianity is first and foremost as a socialist target since it does hold man accountable for his actions...something the radical libs detest.
The false realities of liberalism are killing America, and Washington and local governments continue to bow to liberalism.
I’m with you. I don’t care what they do with who or call it what as long as I do not have to pay for it or see it.
America is just as much to blame when the number #1 shows on tv all have sodomites in them. Will & Grace, Queer Eye, every reality show has at least one or a couple, the list goes on. While the average viewer sits by and chuckles at the funny queers Hollyweird just kept desensitizing until these deviants got a voice. No one to blame but those who watch and I am not one of them.
I Agree, except that it continues to erode my freedom to practice. E.G., hate speech, fair landlord rental requirements, fair hiring pratices, etc.
Many Puritans in the early reformation period refused civil marriage, and refused to wear wedding bands, because it was a civil display linked to a civil ceremony. They believed that Marriage was an institution, a ceremony, and a comitment ordained by God, and that the state had no business in this affair. I wonder how they would have viewed the events of our day. I wonder if they would have even taken the benefits provided (insurance, joint filing, etc.) provided by the state?
Another shoe soon to drop: Gay sex education will be forced on our children at an early age. Schools will not be allowed to discuss normal heterosexual sex in any more detail or length than they teach homosexual sex.
America’s death spiral to the cess pit accelerates.
MP claims "witch hunt" to silence Christians
There is a "witch hunt" against Christians who declare their beliefs on homosexual practice, says the Ulster MP reported to police for expressing the Bible’s teaching on sexual ethics.
Iris Robinson, DUP MP for Strangford, used the biblical term "abomination" to describe the practice of homosexuality on a radio programme last Friday. A complaint was made to the police.
Last night Mrs Robinson, wife of First Minister Peter Robinson, told the BBC: "I am defending the word of God.
"I think at the moment there is a witch hunt to curb or actually stop or prevent Christians speaking out and I make no apology for what I said because it’s the word of God."
Mrs Robinson pointed out that her criticism was directed at the practice of homosexuality, rather than homosexuals themselves.
"I was very careful in saying that I have nothing against any homosexual," she said. "I love them; that is what the Lord tells me, to love the sinner and not the sin."
(excerpt)
Totally Agree with you on that. It is NOT the same period.
Also, it will affect each and every one of us. Higher cost of Healthcare insurance; It will seriously impact the court system; what about the children of these couples. They will have to change custody laws. I mean if two women have have aquired children by one of them being impregnated by a surrogate or adoption, who gets the kids? Family court is a major complicated part of the legal system, and this little gem is going to make it worse.
And what of Full Faith and Credit issues? Are the other states going to be forced to accept this?
I know in here in Arizona, people are very concerned about that issue alone.
What a mess.
Something interesting happened to me in a mens group at church yesterday. We were discussing current events and I mentioned the gays getting married in California this week and he angrily told me that I was falling into their plan calling them “gay”. He said “They are homosexuals, there is nothing gay about them”, I agreed and I now vow to never call them gay. I will refer to homosexuals as what they are “Queers”.
Three words.
Extended Affirmative Action.
Hate speech laws need to be renamed, Bible Burning Laws because merely possessing the Bible will be considered Hate Speech. Canada has already made publicly displaying or quoting certain versus in the Bible illegal hate speech. If the Bible contains hate speech, the Bible itself should be illegal.
True story.
The homos have the queer lawyers and queer judges in their back pockets. Periodically, they all meet in the filthiest public restroom they can find to have their way with every willing stranger and small children. They also have hollywood to market their deviant lifestyle and promote it as normal. Those that don’t engage it are labeled abnormal and homophobic. Much of the public, in utter gullibility to the marketing, have bought the product. Male homosexuals are without question the #1 disease vector, even ahead of IV drug users, on the planet. The cost to healthcare is staggering but ignored by the press.
Access to children has always been high on the homo agenda. Notice the press never mentions nambla in the same story with homosexuality.
Already happening here. A Judge ruled that because of Gay Marriage, that the state had a “compelling interest” in “educating” K-6 in the Homosexual Lifestyle. This was the ruling that vacated all Parental Notification Laws in MA in regards to Sex Education. Gay Activists who go into the schools to teach this crap do not have to undergo CORI (criminal background) Checks. I have to if I want to participate in my Kiwanis Club’s RIF program.
If you read the article, I think that you are a little naive if you think that gay marriage will not have a profound effect on practicing Christianity in America. You personally may not feel much impact, but our kids and grandkids will be especially affected. Read the article.
LINK HERE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77
AT POST #76
The following quote is in the middle--1953.
1953
- The Impact of Science on Society by Fabian Socialist Bertrand Russell is published in which he declares: " I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is mass psychology....Various results will soon be arrived at: that the influence of home is obstructive....although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated. When the technique has been perfected, every government that has been in charge of education for a generation will be able to control its subjects securely without the need of armies or policemen....Educational propaganda, with government help, could achieve this result in a generation. There are, however, two powerful forces opposed to such a policy: one is religion; the other is nationalism....A scientific world society cannot be stable unless there is a world government.
Qx emphases added.
God have mercy on us; direct our paths; draw us close to Himself; give us His Provision; His Peace; His Eternal Life.
No criminal background checks??
I wonder how long Massachusetts is going to tolerate this.
A couple of points:
First, the gays’ war on Christianity is just a part of their battles. They are opposed to any person, organization or philosophy that condemns their acts. The battles have been easier in terms of secular organizations because so many have simply rolled over and let the gays have their way. Some Christians are fighting back or refusing to give in.
But many so-called Christians have already caved. And, indeed, there is nothing new about that caving in. Too many Christian and/or Christian organizations have capitulated on the issue of abortion, on extra-marital sex and on serial monogamy. It is nothing new to devalue the concept of marriage when far too many self-identified Christians do the same in their personal lives. The concept of “judge not” has been liberally applied when it applies to our own failing so now it is coming back to bite us big time when others want the same consideration for their failings.
Second, the goal of gays and lesbians isn’t necessarily to destroy Christianity as it is to “reform” it to their own image. And that applies to all society, not just religious society. They want nothing less than no legal recognition of the differences between the sexes. First they attacked the concept of father and mother and have made headway in getting courts to accept the legal fiction of two mothers or two fathers (sometimes more). Textbooks are being scrubbed of such offensive words as “mom” and “dad”. Second, they are now attacking the concept of husband and wife. Marriage certificates will henceforth bear sex-neutral words such as Partner 1 and Partner 2 and laws already on the books with presumptions in favor of wives against husbands or husbands against wives are being ipso facto overruled and will be rewritten by the ever-so-accommodating California legislature. As this second attack is on-going, the final offensive will be to destroy the concept of man and woman. When this is accomplished, any legal benefit accorded one sex above another will be illegal, except as to those the powers-that-be deign to keep in effect.
All this is so a tiny minority of people can feel good about themselves. Except it won’t work. When people are transgressing the laws of God, no amount of legal or public approbation will ever fill the void caused by evil. The battles will go on and on and Christians and all good people will be forced to make painful choices as to their willingness to live their convictions or be popularly accepted. It would seem that the shoe would then be on the other foot but it isn’t true. Righteousness is its own reward and those following the laws of God don’t have the same gnawing need for public approval.
I don’t mean to paint a negative picture here and I certainly intend to fight these trends as much as possible but we need to accept that we have a certain amount of blame in seeing this happen as we have steadily eroded our own willingness to live up to God’s standards. We need to use whatever legal means are possible to resist this inexorable march to societal doom but we also need to fight this by returning to gospel principles and living its precepts, whether they are popular or not. We can’t decry the gays’ efforts to be “judged not” if we demand the same of our live-in relationships, our premarital sex, our drug use, our gambling or cheating, our parental neglect, our abortions, our meanness and so many other failings. Otherwise we are like Tevye in “The Fiddler on the Roof” who steadily eroded his belief on marriage with each daughter’s “transgression”. Once you chip away at the edifice, don’t expect others to respect it.
“Puritans ... believed that Marriage was an institution, a ceremony, and a commitment ordained by God, and that the state had no business in this affair.”
Sounds good to me. I would like the state to get out of the marriage business completely. The alternative, I fear, is the continuing erosion of the concept of marriage as a religious sacrament.
It wouldn’t be too hard to go back to the days when men were allowed to own other men days and discover similar language depicting religious freedom with the right to own slaves and how the abolition movement would hinder Christians in their right to live out their religious viewpoint either.
“...Some Christians are fighting back or refusing to give in...”
Christians MUST vote for this in November:
http://www.ProtectMarriage.com/
We can kiss our rights goodbye if it doesn’t pass in this state.
Also, I heard this Christian Civil Rights attorney on a local radio show yesterday. This organization and it’s attorneys work pro bono. He said that pastors and churches are not currently legally compelled to marry gays but there are other legal issues they may face. Contact Pacific Justice Institute if you are a pastor to find out your rights concerning this new law:
http://www.pacificjustice.org/resources/news/focusdetails.cfm?ID=PR080604a
True. The gay rights groups have pursued a long-term agenda bit by bit and they probably won’t jeopardize the progress by jumping the gun. I must admit that I think a lot of conservatives could learn some lessons about incrementalism and long-term strategy by examining how these groups have steadily and with stealth pursued their agenda, even voting for less-than-perfect candidates and allowing candidates to trash them before elections. I think if conservatives could stop fighting among themselves or making the perfect the enemy of the good, we could accomplish a lot more than we have done so far.
Where is Chode? I am sure he will agree with me on this one........
I am sooooooooo sure that our Founding Fathers wanted “the right to be a “filthy disease ridden queer” in the bill of rights. NOT!
I never thought I would see the day when the state sanctified these bizarre rituals men with men and women with women. All societies that have ever embraced such perversion soon fell apart. People that are standing by idly letting this happen are contributing to the destruction of our society.
Clearly there are a lot of things we need to do now. We need to support organizations such as Pacific Justice Institute with our contributions. We need to stand fast against incursions on religious activities and freedom to express our religious convictions in the public forum. We need to stop being cowed by aggressive condemnation for expressing our beliefs. We need to pull our kids out of public schools if necessary. We need to stop spending our funds to support entertainment that trashes our values. We need to stop overlooking immorality and evil just because we get entertained by evil or immoral people. We need to show our economic pull by buying products and services from individuals and companies that share our values. It can be more work and sometimes downright inconvenient but we need to put our money where our mouths are right now.
It already has. You will lose your job is you say something that this bunch doesn’t like.
Chrisitnaity was never a shield for slavery. SLavery was tolerated because it is an institution as old as mankind. You are confused.
A BIG AMEN! to post 33!
Ping.
Well said. The Bible says that God will often raise or lower a nation's status in accord with what His followers are doing (2 Chronicles 7:14). Christians have allowed this country to deteriorate morally. We have not done our job in living out the gospel or adequately communicating it to our kids and neighbors, and now we are reaping the results.
We need a short-term (stop the legal hemmoraging) approach, along with a long-term (evangelize our nation) approach. Homosexuals, with their friends in the media and the Democrat Party, have been very adept in their strategies. Just read After the Ball to see their detailed strategy in their own words.
Go away, troll.
I have an honest question. Why did you go see it? Don’t read in any criticism I am just wondering why folks go and see it.
Bookmarking to read later
Ever heard of William Wilberforce?
Emancipating Slaves
"It was the Christian Church more than any other agency that was responsible for the emancipation of the slaves," said Dr. Maier. He cited William Wilberforce, an evangelical Christian and member of the British Parliament in the early 19th century, who dedicated his life to abolishing the slave trade.
Likewise, in America it was Christians who agitated for an end to slavery. The Underground Railroad was run by Quakers and other devout Christians. In 1835, two-thirds of the members of the abolition society were ministers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
If you pick up credible history, you'll find that some of the little small denominations today played great roles in fighting against slavery," said Dr. E.V. Hill, pastor of Mt. Zion Missionary Baptist Church in Los Angeles. "If Jesus had not come, the slave—and people who were in slavery—and my fore-parents would not have heard the good news of freedom."
THE PAGAN ORIGINS OF SLAVERY
Slavery long predated Christianity and many of the early Christians were slaves in the Roman Empire. Without exception, the pre-Christian world accepted slavery as normal and desirable. The Greek philosopher Aristotle claimed: "From the hour of their birth, some are marked out for subjection, others for rule." The great civilisations of Mesopotamia, Babylon, Egypt, Greece, Rome, and all the civilisations in Central America and Africa were built upon slave labour.
People became slaves by being an insolvent debtor, or sold into slavery by their parents, or by being born to slave parents, or by being captured in war, or through kidnapping by slave raiders and pirates. Slave dealing was an accepted way of life, fully established in all societies. Most of these slaves were white people, or Europeans. In fact the very word "slave", comes from the people of Eastern Europe, the Slavs.
St. Patrick, the English missionary to the Irish, was once a slave himself, kidnapped from his home and taken to Ireland against his will. Patrick spoke out strongly against slavery. He wrote: "But it is the women kept in slavery who suffer the most."
The Greeks, from whom we derive so many modern, humanistic ideas, were utterly dependent on slavery. Even Plato's Republic was firmly based on slave labour. Plato said that 50 or more slaves represented the possessions of a wealthy man.
Under Roman law, when a slave owner was found murdered, all his slaves were to be executed. In one case, when a certain Pedanius Secundas was murdered, all 400 of his slaves were put to death.
Before the coming of Christ, the heathen nations despised manual work and confined it to slaves. When Christ was born, half of the population of the Roman Empire were slaves. Three quarters of the population of Athens were slaves.
Slavery was indigenous to African and Arab countries before it made its way to Europe. Slavery was widely practiced by the tribes of the American Indians long before Columbus set foot on the shores of the New World. Ethiopia had slavery until 1942, Saudi Arabia until 1962, Peru until 1968, India until 1976 and Mauritania until 1980. What is also seldom remembered is that many black Americans in the 19th Century owned slaves. For example, according to the United States census of 1830, in just the one town of Charleston, South Carolina, 407 black Americans owned slaves themselves.
THE CHRISTIAN ROOTS OF LIBERTY
But Jesus revolutionised labour. By taking up the axe, the saw, the hammer and the plane, our Lord endued labour with a new dignity. Christianity undercut slavery by giving dignity to work. By reforming work, Christianity transformed the entire social order.
Our Lord Jesus Christ began His ministry in Nazareth with these words: "The Spirit of the Lord is on Me.to proclaim freedom for the prisoners.and release to the oppressed." Luke 4:18
When the apostle Paul wrote to Philemon, concerning his escaped slave, he urged him to welcome back Onesimus "no longer as a slave, but.as a dear brother.as a man and as a brother in the Lord." Philemon 16.
Because of these and other Scriptural commands to love our neighbour, to be a good Samaritan and to do for others what you would want them to do for you, Christians like William Wilberforce, John Newton, William Carey, David Livingstone, Lord Shaftsbury and General Charles Gordon worked tirelessly to end the slave trade, stop child labour, and set the captives free.
From the very beginning of the Christian Church, Christians freed slaves. During the 2nd and 3rd Centuries many tens of thousands of slaves were freed by people who converted to Christ. St. Melania was said to have emancipated 8000 slaves, St. Ovidius freed 5000, Chromatius freed 1400, Hermes 1200. Many of the Christian clergy at Hippo under St. Augustine "freed their slaves as an act of piety." In AD315, the Emperor Constantine, just two years after he issued the edict of Milan, legalising Christianity, imposed the death penalty on those who stole children to bring them up as slaves.
The Emperor Justinian abolished all laws that prevented the freeing of slaves. St. Augustine (354 - 430) saw slavery as the product of sin and as contrary to God's Divine plan (The City of God). St. Chrysostom in the 4th Century, taught that when Christ came He annulled slavery. He proclaimed "in Christ Jesus there is no slave.therefore it is not necessary to have a slave.buy them, and after you have taught them some skill by which they can maintain themselves, set them free."
For centuries, throughout the Middle Ages, bishops and church councils recommended the redemption of captive slaves, and for five centuries the Trinitarian monks redeemed Christian slaves from Moorish (Muslim) servitude.
In 1102AD, the London Church Council outlawed slavery and the slave trade. By the 12th Century slaves in Europe were rare, and by the 14th Century slavery was almost unknown on the continent of Europe.
I concur with that. I thin it is happening in some areas already.
Good stuff, thank you.
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus
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