Posted on 06/16/2008 10:40:57 PM PDT by TheDon
LAKE FOREST – The conversation dealt with transgendered individuals, homosexuality, and theology.
Representatives of the gay community today shared their "coming out" stories and discussed religious attitudes toward homosexuality with Saddleback Church staff.
"I feel the foundation is being built for other dialogue between Saddleback and the gay community," said Richard Finch...
One person talked about being transgender and Christian, attendees said. Another individual talked about being in the brink of suicide because of his childhood church's views on homosexuality.
...
Jeff Lutes, executive director of Soulforce — a gay rights advocacy group that organized the project — said the issue of homosexuality has divided the American faith community.
"All of these churches have lots of gay and lesbian members who are there," Lutes said. "Some are deeply in the closet and the church is really missing out on the gifts that they can offer the church. You can't offer all of your talents if you're pretending to be something you're not."
...
Robert Goodman, a Los Angeles resident who has a husband and a six-year-old son, spoke about being on the brink of suicide.
"I didn't want (church members) to keep going forward not knowing the impact that their position has," Goodman said.
"I think our desire was to really engage in a theological discussion on the issue of homosexuality," Goodman added. "We a have a theological position on that and they have one… our desire was to discuss our differences with them but they were unwilling to do so."
Overall, Goodman said they were successful in creating a dialogue with the church.
"They seemed willing to continue to speak with us and be in dialogue with us," he said. "I feel good that we accomplished that much."
(Excerpt) Read more at ocregister.com ...
Poor kid....
“Another individual talked about being in the brink of suicide because of his childhood church’s views on homosexuality. ...”
*****
(violin playing...)
Leviticus 20:13.
The truth is that homosexuality is no worse of a sin than fornication outside of marriage, or lying or stealing, but it is a sin. It is sad that the church has chosen to emphasize this sin as though it’s worse than any other. Love the sinner, hate the sin.
Brokeback at Saddleback....
I thought they preferred not to use a saddle.
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
12"Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"—but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.
4Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral. 5Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have...
6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
You’ve got it backwards. The church is not “emphasizing homosexuality as a sin that’s worse than any other.” The problem is that the homosexuals are trying to de-emphasize their sin and convince Christians that homosexuality is not a sin, in direct contrast to what the Bible says.
I don’t know of any other class of sinners that does the same - adulterers don’t, theives don’t, liars don’t, murderers don’t. Why do homosexuals insist on trying to convince others that homosexuality isn’t a sin, when the Bible clearly says that it is?
“The truth is that homosexuality is no worse of a sin than fornication outside of marriage, or lying or stealing, but it is a sin. It is sad that the church has chosen to emphasize this sin as though it’s worse than any other. Love the sinner, hate the sin.”
The difference is that when we lie or steal, we know it’s a sin. We ask forgiveness and don’t try to excuse it. But they’re trying to justify and legitimize their sin. In effect, despite what the Bible says, they’re trying to convince people that it isn’t sin at all. Is that not the very definition of a false prophet? What makes the homosexual movement dangerous isn’t the act of sex itself... it’s the act of justifying the sin.
Bump
As believers, we are to speak the truth in love, not compromise the Word of God to win popularity contests in a PC world, which is Modus Operandi for these “Seeker Sensitive” churches.
Ping and run.
Agree with your first paragraph. Sadly, sexual immorality is being celebrated and flaunted in all forms, including pornography which is the equivalent to adultery/fornication. Then there’s the young fad of having “friends with benefits”. Ever heard of that? Quite the rage. Call a friend up for the evening to see if they are busy, if not, they have a mutual benefit session, off the record.
Alcoholics admit they have a problem and I admire them when they openly admit their problem, attending meetings to encourage one another to abstain from alcohol. To suggest such a support group for homosexuals brings down the great wrath of the “diversity” gestapo.
“Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood”
media/advertising/entertainment
I think those other classes do try to convince others their actions aren't sinful.
The Bible says otherwise, and unless they recognize that, repent and stop their sinful behaviour, they aren't really applying the Bible's message to their lives.
The title of the thread should be called “The Saddleback Slide” becuase Rick Warren is doing just that.
By giving the venue, by opening the gate a little they will be stormed because if they now do not come forward in a public manner to affirm the gays in all their lifestyles and such they will be eviscerated in the press and everywhere else until they do so.
The homosexual movement and advocacy is all about legitimizing their current relationships to offset the painful relationships past and the lack of proper ones when younger.
What’s really sickening is that we have given up and let them win here.
Every PRO-homosexual law ought to be overturned…
Every “marriage” in Mass and California should be legally nullified…
That have ALL the rights of relationship but no right to the special covenant of marriage when nature itself stands against their only legitimizing reason…that is for the state to protect the nuclear family for the purpose of children.
Gays have 2-4 % of the population but 90% of the coercion power in the courts and government. We are a minority next to them.
To say this is pure hatred of them they will say…they invent that as a crutch to the legless arguments. Demonization by them is very effective. Saddleback has invited them to do just this…and they will.
The homosexuals will not be satisfied to attend a church, they will change and dilute it until it shatters and is gone. Killing all religion and all thought of sin and immorality is their goal. Bishop Gay Gene Robinson of the fragmented Episcopalian faith is a good example.
I agree with you whole-heartedly. The article mentions some of those who say they are close to suicide. If they say they are christians then the reason they are close to suicide is because the Holy Spirit is trying to convict them that what they’re doing is an abomination to God. That’s what happens to christians when they are actively grieving the Holy Spirit, these people are in spiritual turmoil. In God’s eyes sin is sin, no one greater than the other. But when we are converted we become transformed and are new again, and this is why they are in turmoil, not because other people are persecuting them but God Himself is shining a light on their sin and they need to turn away from it.
This deserves to be repeated:
“The church is not “emphasizing homosexuality as a sin that’s worse than any other.” The problem is that the homosexuals are trying to de-emphasize their sin and convince Christians that homosexuality is not a sin, in direct contrast to what the Bible says.
I don’t know of any other class of sinners that does the same - adulterers don’t, thieves don’t, liars don’t, murderers don’t. Why do homosexuals insist on trying to convince others that homosexuality isn’t a sin, when the Bible clearly says that it is?”
“I think those other classes do try to convince others their actions aren’t sinful.”
...NOT as activist groups they don’t!
Exactly!
Maybe not in your church, but there have been plenty of churches that I have seen on TV that do so. I do agree that homosexuals would like to have sin-free sex as does a married man and woman. And certainly they are militant in their demands not to be judged for their sexual sins either by society or the church. I feel sorry for them. They've truly got the worst of both worlds- the guilt of the sin and the stigma of being homosexual. I do have a couple celibate homosexual friends and that is possibly the only way to be a homosexual believer.
bump
This stuff is so easy to interpret.
There are plenty of folks sitting in the pews on Sunday that are engaged in these activities that are busy rationalizing their sins or living daily in guilt. By survey at Wheaton College, the Christian College near Chicago, a full 95% of dating couples were sexually active outside of marriage.
The church is full of sinners who are there because they recognize their sinful nature and their need for a savior. There are also the hypocrits who, as you say, rationalize their sins (adultery, lying, theft, etc.).
The thing is, those people aren't running around forming groups pushing to have others accept their sinful behavior as not sinful, like the homosexual group mentioned in the article.
By survey at Wheaton College, the Christian College near Chicago, a full 95% of dating couples were sexually active outside of marriage.
Just because a group of people engages in behavior that the Bible says is sinful, does that mean the church should deem that behavior no longer sinful? Of course not.
That's a very juvenile argument - "everyone does it so it must be OK."
That wasn't the argument, but you almost stumbled into it earlier in your reply. The argument is that there are plenty of sinners who rationalize their sins while they are involved in fellowship and it matters not whether they are gay or straight. Prayerfully, they all know that what they are engaged in is a sin against God and want to repent and come into His grace- and that's why they are there. One guilty activist guy organized this meeting. Most gay churchgoers are probably not deniers of their sin like this guy is and it is very judgmental on your part to think they are. There are undoubtedly way more male-female couples in the church living in sin that try to justify their sin than gays.
No, that's not the argument. If people are sitting in the pews rationalizing their private sins to themselves, I don't know that. They aren't broadcasting it to the world. They aren't openly pressing for acceptance of their lifestyle as not sinful. They know deep down that they are in sin - that's why they're rationalizing! If the church knows about their behavior, then the steps in Matthew chapter 18 should be followed to lovingly lead the person to repentance. If he/she does not repent, they are to be removed from the fellowship. That's how public sin and/or those done flagrantly or arrogantly are to be handled according to the Bible.
One guilty activist guy organized this meeting.
There may be one activist that organized the meeting, but there is a group of homosexuals called SoulForce behind the movement. And this is not the only instance of groups of homosexuals pressuring a church. There are many other instances of the same kinds of pressure groups working against many other denominations - Catholic, Episcopelean, Lutheran, Baptist, etc. For you to try to trivialize this and try to make it sound like a small, one-man operation is dishonest, when you know it's happening all over the nation to other churches.
Most gay churchgoers are probably not deniers of their sin like this guy is and it is very judgmental on your part to think they are.
I never said that or thought that. My disdain is reserved for those who push for acceptance of their homosexuality as not sinful. I would have the same disdain towards anyone that pushed for any sinful behavior to be accepted by the church. I have great respect for those who quietly struggle with homosexual urges and do their utmost to live according to Biblical principles. But hey, we all do that...none of us are perfect and we all need to rely on the Lord for help in those areas of our lives where we struggle with sin. Those who struggle with homosexuality are no different from the rest of us in that regard.
There are undoubtedly way more male-female couples in the church living in sin that try to justify their sin than gays.
Once again, THAT'S NOT THE POINT!! It doesn't matter how many people are committing what sin. It's still a sin regardless of how many people are doing it, or what sin it is! The main thing is, those people who are in adultery don't go around trying to convince the church that what they're doing is OK, however there are homosexual activist groups that do exactly that, like SoulForce. Please quit bringing this comparison to other sins up...it's not relevant to the discussion.
But of course Rev 22:19 gets in the way
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Ray Comfort hits the nail on the head with this issue by showing how yes in their minds their God wouldn't condemn all these actions because he can't as he is made up, unlike the true creator of the universe.
Excuse me. That was my argument. I think I know what argument I was making. The vast majority of homosexual Christians are well aware of their sin and struggle with it on a daily basis as do the rest of us who are struggling with our own respective sins. Just as some churches have sought to make homosexuality a worse sin than any other, so SoulForce has sought to deny it as sin at altogether. Both are clearly wrong! I suspect that there are way more people in the former camp than the latter (especially here at FR). These threads bring the gay bashers out in spades and I was merely trying to get them to examine the logs in their own eyes. It wasn't particularly clear to me that you didn't think all gays at Saddleback were fully engaged in SoulForce. I have attended Saddleback a number of times and I doubt very seriously if that's true. Warren may be a lefty, but he's far from being a false teacher.
You keep bringing up this "some churches" argument, but I disagree. What churches are you talking about? The only one I know of is that dispicable Westboro (?) "church" that wasn't really a church - it was a lawsuit factory. But they have been shut down, so I don't know of any churches that do what you describe.
I suspect that there are way more people in the former camp than the latter
There you go playing the numbers game again. Of course there's more of the former since homosexuals are only 2% - 4% of the entire population (if that). Who cares what the numbers are?
These threads bring the gay bashers out in spades and I was merely trying to get them to examine the logs in their own eyes.
Then quit beating around the bush by citing statistics about things like the number of young adulterous Christians. When you do that it just sounds like you're trying to defend/justify the behavior of homosexuals (like "hey, they're carnal heterosexual Christians, so why can't homosexuals be carnal Christians too?"), not prompt any kind of self-examination.
It wasn't particularly clear to me that you didn't think all gays at Saddleback were fully engaged in SoulForce.
I didn't say anything to give you that impression. It was just something you assumed, which you shouldn't have done based on the lack of evidence.
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