Nothing is Certain but Death and the FairTax

townhall.com ^ | May 12, 2008 | Mike S. Adams

[kellynla]

My good friend Lee – a Vietnam veteran and proud gun-toting conservative – recently declared to me that the FairTax is a great idea that will never actually happen. Because I am a true Reagan conservative – one full of optimism and faith in the American people – I respectfully dissent. And I write today to explain exactly how we will win the war against the I.R.S. and make the FairTax a reality.

We can all agree that the FairTax movement is a grass roots effort that must prevail over the resistance of politicians and lobbyists who have a powerful interest in maintaining the status quo. But this does not mean that every supporter of the FairTax must dedicate a significant amount of time volunteering to make the dream of abolishing the I.R.S. a reality. There is something retired veterans like Lee can do, which will require little time and money and will virtually guarantee the success of the FairTax movement.

The idea comes to me from a former student who was waiting on me the other night at the bar of a seafood restaurant in Wilmington. I had a beer in one hand and my copy of FairTax: The Truth in the other when an Obama supporter asked the following: “Why do you support the FairTax? We just need to change the tax code to punish corporations that are sending our jobs over to China.”

Armed with FairTax: The Truth, I responded with the following: “I’m from Texas as is Representative Bill Archer. He testified in front of Congress about the results of an interesting study of 500 companies in Japan. When asked what they would do if the U.S. abolished its present tax system and went with a consumption tax, 80% said they would build their next plant in America. The remaining 20% said they would relocate to America altogether. Now that’s change you can believe in!”

Clearly, my response gave the young man something to think about. But so did my waitress and former student. She jokingly said “Dr. Adams, you probably aren’t even reading that book. You’re just trying to provoke a debate.”

Of course, I really was reading the book but it gave me a very good idea. I decided to keep carrying it with me everywhere for a week after I finished reading it just to see whether that would be a good way of provoking debate on the issue. The very next day it produced the following exchange with a flat tax supporter:

Supporter of the Flat Tax of Yesterday (SOFTY): Sorry, I support the flat tax. Adams: How often do you change your underwear? SOFTY: What? Adams: I assume you change your underwear every day? SOFTY: Yes, what the hell does that have to do with it? Adams: That means you’ve changed underwear 8036 times in the last 22 years. SOFTY: And? Adams: And the I.R.S. has changed the tax code 16,000 times in the last 22 years. They change the tax code twice as often as you change underwear. How long do you think a flat tax would remain flat? SOFTY: (Silence) Adams: Would you like to borrow my book?

I’m sure SOFTY was still thinking about the FairTax the next day while he was (hopefully) changing his underwear. Meanwhile, I was sitting at a bar having this exchange:

Badly and Desperately Pessimistic Realtor (BADPR): I know the FairTax is going to kill people in my line of work. Adams: I think you’re exaggerating, to say the least. I’m about to buy my fourth house and my first new house. BADPR: So. Adams: So I’m like a lot of people out there. Most of our home purchases are not of new homes. BADPR: And? Adams: And the FairTax only applies to new home purchases. BADPR: Can I borrow your book? Adams: Sure. And be sure to read the portion on embedded taxes, too. It may convince you that new home purchases will be impacted to a lesser extent than you imagine. BADPR: I will. Adams: Finally, and in the interests of full disclosure, I do know someone who bought four new homes in a row. He was a very wealthy former student of mine. Before he went to prison he bought four new homes. But he never paid income tax on the cocaine he sold on his way to becoming wealthy. Too bad we didn’t have a consumption tax like the one you will read about in the book I gave you.

Some conversations were a little more cumbersome. Like this one I had with a young fellow who was drinking Budweiser at 12:35 p.m. in a pizza place in Wilmington:

Bud-loving unemployed drunk dude (BUDD): What are you reading? Adams: FairTax: The Truth. (The portion of the conversation talking about our waitress’ tattoos is deleted). BUDD: If I thought it would get me a job, I’d be all for it. Adams: Here, take my copy. Make sure you read the chart on page 131. It shows how states with high income taxes fare relative to states with no income taxes in terms of economic growth. BUDD: Are you just giving me this? Adams: Yep. I’ve been making good money on the speaking circuit this year. When people have more money they are more charitable. See the statistics on page 166. If you agree with it, buy a copy for someone else.

My little experiment with FairTax: The Truth convinced me of a few things. First, it convinced me that it’s an easy way to get people talking about the FairTax. It also convinced me that most people who oppose the FairTax do so because they are insufficiently educated about all of its benefits. I read Boortz and Linder’s first FairTax book twice and thought I understood it well enough to explain all of its benefits. But after I read Fair Tax: The Truth I realized there were more benefits than I had imagined previously.

I don’t have much time to volunteer to the FairTax cause. But I do have time to briefly discuss it at the coffee shop in the morning, the diner in the afternoon, or the restaurant at night. That is why I’ve decided to extend my experiment by carrying FairTax books with me every day for the next year. I’ve also decided to give my copies away to anyone who promises to read them.

I plan to write off all these FairTax books as “charitable contributions” on next year’s tax return. If you join me today, I won’t have to do it again.

[kellynla]

I wish I could be as optimistic.

[kellynla]

ping

[Bernard]

I have a different view on the concept of a fair tax; a fair federal tax system is one where people who support the idea of government spending would pay 80% of the current federal tax burden plus $200-300 Billion each year to pay down the national debt.

The idea is that liberals support most government spending, so they should pay to make it happen. The other 20% would be paid by conservatives, to support the military and the courts.

How to make this work? Whatever the mechanism to assess and collect taxes is complete, the taxpayer would answer a series of questions that would indicate how much government they support. Points would be assigned to each answer, and a supporter of big government would pay an escalated percentage to cover their personal belief in government spending. The higher the points, the higher the tax.

After that, the details of deductions, credits, AMT, etc. would be something the liberals have to sort out on their own.

[Mind-numbed Robot]

Liberals lie as a matter of course and would not pay their share.

The Fair Tax would be great for America.

[normy]

What happens to state and local taxes you pay on consumption?

[DuncanWaring]

What happens to state and local taxes you pay on consumption?

Two possible answers:
1. They get spent.
2. Whatever the state and local governments decide to do with them.

[normy]

So the 30% fair tax + the 8.25 sales tax and any other taxes levied by the city?

[DuncanWaring]

Possibly. You’d have to take the local taxes up with the locals.

Assuming the repeal of the 16th amendment, that’s also minus income tax and hopefully FICA.

[webboy45]

The Fairtax would be a boondoggle for the wealthy. They can buy their yachts in Mexico and airplanes in Canada. They can use business “expenses” to circumvent the tax. And the poor and middle class who rent would be hit with a renter’s tax. Also it is naive to think that Congress wouldn’t enact various exemptions to the tax.

[Man50D]

Fair Tax ping!

[lewislynn]

I’m from Texas as is Representative Bill Archer. He testified in front of Congress about the results of an interesting study of 500 companies in Japan. When asked what they would do if the U.S. abolished its present tax system and went with a consumption tax, 80% said they would build their next plant in America. The remaining 20% said they would relocate to America altogether. Now that’s change you can believe in!”

First of all he wasn't "testifying"in front of congress he was speaking before a gathering, probably a fund raiser, and no one, not even Bill Archer has named ONE of those 500 companies let alone produce the study.

Bill (I'll pull the tax code out by it's roots) Archer retired after adding 800 new pages to the tax code to work for Price Waterhouse Coopers ...Not exactly Fairtax advocates.

[Hostage]

They, ‘the wealthy’, those evil people with all the money, may indeed buy their yachts and airplanes in Canada, Mexico, but they, the evil ones, will have to keep those planes and yachts in Canada and Mexico, else pay the customs tax.

And if these evil capitalists try and circumvent the tax via claiming personal purchases as business expenses, then they will have to have good criminal lawyers to keep them out of prison for tax evasion.

The dear darling poor and middle class who would be buried in rent taxes will of course not see lower rents caused by elimination of federal taxes on the landlords, now would they?

Your last blurb is almost legit, but for a parallel campaign to repeal the 16th Amendment, in which case Congressional power to arbitrarily declare exemptions would be removed.

[lewislynn]

I do know someone who bought four new homes in a row. He was a very wealthy former student of mine. Before he went to prison he bought four new homes. But he never paid income tax on the cocaine he sold on his way to becoming wealthy. Too bad we didn’t have a consumption tax like the one you will read about in the book I gave you.

Mr. Adams isn't too bright (No surprise there, he's reading a Fairtax book written by a radio clown as if it's a bible).

Does he think his former student coudn't go to jail for selling cocaine under the Fairtax for not collecting and remitting the tax on his sales?...let alone the fact I'm sure selling cocaine would still be illegal.

[Hostage]

Let’s correct the arithmetic:

29.9% NRST
MINUS
28.2% elimination in price inflation caused by fed taxes
PLUS local sales taxes

EQUALS

a Net 1.7% in additional retail tax

With the attendant elimination of Tax Insanity.

That’s a trade just about everyone will take.

[Man50D]

The Fairtax would be a boondoggle for the wealthy. They can buy their yachts in Mexico and airplanes in Canada.

They can do that now! Currently foreign businesses have on average a 17% competitive advantage over American firms. The Fair Tax will eliminate that advantage because exported goods will not be taxed while imported goods be subject to the Fair Tax. Fair Tax FAQ #31. Americans will be more likely to keep their money in the U.S. since there will be no advantage of buying foreign goods. Additionally, eventually prices will be reduced as businesses will be forced to pass on the cost savings onto the consumer due to competition since they will no longer have to pass the cost of corporate income taxes currently embedded in everything we purchase. Consequently American goods will be more attractive to the wealthy than foreign goods.

They can use business “expenses” to circumvent the tax.

Several features in the Fair Tax will prevent that from happening:

First, in order for any person to purchase items tax free for business purposes, the business has to be a registered seller and possess a registered seller certificate issued by the state sales tax authority. Registered sellers must file quarterly or monthly depending on depending on slaes volume. Fair Tax FAQ #48

Second, registered sellers are subject to the possibility of being audited by the state. they will have to produce the invoices for all the “business purchases” that they did not pay sales tax on and will have to be able to show that they were bona fide business expenses. Failing to prove it is a business will result in paying the tax plus penalties and interest. The probability of being audited will be greater under The Fair Tax since there will be only 20 million tax filers compared to the 140 million tax filers with the income tax.

Third, The Fair Tax will discourage fake family businesses due to two provisions. One is that any gift or reward is considered to be the conversion of property or services from business use to personal use and is therefore taxable. Also Under the Fair Tax, employer-provided employee discounts over 20 percent are taxable. If the employee discount amount exceeds 20 percent of the price to the general public, then the sale of such taxable property or services by the employer to the employee is considered the conversion of property or services to personal use and is subject to tax. The taxable amount is the amount by which the discount exceeds 20 percent of the price to the general public.

And the poor and middle class who rent would be hit with a renter’s tax.

The Fair Tax will abolish all business income taxes. This will in turn eliminate the costs of these embedded taxes and associated compliance costs. Eventually property owners will be forced to pass on at least some of these costs with rent reduction due to competition or risk losing business. Also middle class renters will have more purchasing power with more money in their wallets due the elimination of all federal income taxes. The prebate will cover the tax on necessities, including shelter, up to the poverty level.

Also it is naive to think that Congress wouldn’t enact various exemptions to the tax.

Imposing the Fair Tax up front on all items and services eliminates exemptions created by lobbyists who distort the economy. The only alternative for exemptions to be enacted would be to rewrite The Fair Tax but in that case it would no longer be The Fair Tax.

You obviously have not read The Fair Tax Act or read the information at The Americans For Fair Taxation website. I suggest you do so before making anymore erroneous remarks about The Fair Tax.

[PugetSoundSoldier]

The Fairtax would be a boondoggle for the wealthy. They can buy their yachts in Mexico and airplanes in Canada. They can use business “expenses” to circumvent the tax. And the poor and middle class who rent would be hit with a renter’s tax.

And how is that different from now? Other than the fact right now that most people really don't know how much tax they really pay...

[groanup]

So the 30% fair tax + the 8.25 sales tax and any other taxes levied by the city?

Think of it like this: You make $100 and you pay $25 in taxes. So you have $75 in purchasing power and, out of that, you consume and pay the existing local consumption tax.

Under the FairTax you make $100 but you only have $75 in purchasing power because you'll have to pay a Federal consumption tax on what you spend.

Local sales taxes are an issue unto themselves.

[Toddsterpatriot]

28.2% elimination in price inflation caused by fed taxes

Source? LOL!

[kellynla]

you forget one very huge issue...

under the Fair Tax, using your example, you also have the option of having $100 that you can save or invest while under the present system you only have $75 after federal income taxes that you can save or invest and under the present system you also have to pay federal income taxes on any profit from your investment with the exception of tax free bonds.

[lewislynn]

Let’s correct the arithmetic:

29.9% NRST
MINUS
28.2% elimination in price inflation caused by fed taxes
PLUS local sales taxes

EQUALS

a Net 1.7% in additional retail tax...

You correcting arithmetic? That's choice.

Your correction of the arithmetic only includes your perception of embedded taxes, leaving out the Fairtax replacement of personal income and payroll taxes...How convenient for you.

[foxfield]

I wish I could...

Someone once told me that there are three kinds of people in this world: Those who make things happen, those who watch thing happen, and those who say "What happened?"

The group you are in is a matter of choice.

[kellynla]

Marine, if you’re gonna reference my words, I would appreciate it if you would at least do me the courtesy of not taking them out of context.

Carry on!
I’ll be in the area ‘til chow time. LOL

[dan1123]

the interest in retaining the traditional and well-established definition of marriage — cannot properly be viewed as a compelling state interest

Since Congress established that a citizen's fee is $5000 in their "comprehensive immigration reform" bill, then how about we just pay that every year?

[groanup]

Good point. You would also have the option of, for example, buying your new power saw next month, when it goes on sale.

[lentulusgracchus]

You obviously have not read The Fair Tax Act or read the information at The Americans For Fair Taxation website. I suggest you do so before making anymore erroneous remarks about The Fair Tax.

You making the rules around here now?

Handing out homework as a prerequisite for having an opinion?

Nobody has to read Wealth of Nations before forming an opinion about whether inflation is good.

Also, your slanging people for having "erroneous" opinions because they disagree with yours sounds awfully liberal.

They might just have different values than yours. Your "Fair Tax" (and it isn't intrinsically fair, nothing is) will have different impacts on different people with different vested interests. They will form their opinions according to their own situations.

[lentulusgracchus]

29.9% NRST
MINUS
28.2% elimination in price inflation caused by fed taxes

Oh, really? Who says so? Who says the "inflation" would be eliminated?

You willing to post a performance bond in my favor, to indemnify me in case a manufacturer "forgets" to reduce his prices to offset his savings on federal income and payroll taxes?

Didn't think so.

Your pitch is a con.

[Man50D]

Handing out homework as a prerequisite for having an opinion?

You're right. I was expecting too much of someone to become well informed on a topic by actually reading straight from the sources. It's far better to just guess without reading any of the information.

Nobody has to read Wealth of Nations before forming an opinion about whether inflation is good.

Nobody has to read or learn anything for that matter! Everybody can go around being ignorant on every subject. Heck who needs knowledge on anything!

Also, your slanging people for having "erroneous" opinions because they disagree with yours sounds awfully liberal.

Oh I see. I should defer to someone who's statements are completely anathema to what is written in the Fair Tax Act and the information provided at the Americans For Fair Taxation website. By your line of reasoning I should ignore the knowledge I've learned by actually reading the appropriate information and take the word of someone who doesn't have a clue.

They might just have different values than yours.

Their values are different from mine if it includes not taking the time to learn the subject matter before making statements.

Your "Fair Tax" (and it isn't intrinsically fair, nothing is) will have different impacts on different people with different vested interests.

The Fair Tax grew out of millions of people who have been adversely effected by the income tax in many different ways. Your claim The Fair tax isn't intrinsically fair lacks any credibility absent any facts or details to buttress your statement.

They will form their opinions according to their own situations.

Fine but do so after becoming acquainted with the relevant information.

[normy]

I am not willing to overhaul the tax code based on the assumption of private companies discounting their product almost 30%.

So it seems to me the "fair tax" is 30% + city taxes + state sales tax and we haven't talked about Social Security or Medicare yet.

I have yet to be persuaded that this system is better than the current system. It also seems to involve giving the Federal Government even more power than it has now.

[lentulusgracchus]

29.9% NRST
MINUS
28.2% elimination in price inflation caused by fed taxes

Oh, really? Who says so? Who says the "inflation" would be eliminated?

You willing to post a performance bond in my favor, to indemnify me in case a manufacturer "forgets" to reduce his prices to offset his savings on federal income and payroll taxes?

Didn't think so.

Your pitch is a con.

[foxfield]

I wish I could be as optimistic.

Is that better? I was just trying to emphasize the "wish" and the "could".

In retrospect I can see that you are among those who are trying to make the FairTax a reality. Otherwise you wouldn't have bothered posting Mike Adams' article. Thank you posting it. He is a personal favorite.

BTW, I must confess an occasional bout of pessimism when I think of the work that must be done.

It sounds like you have some kind of connection with the Marines. Would you mind sharing it with with the rest of us?

[lewislynn]

you forget one very huge issue...

under the Fair Tax, using your example, you also have the option of having $100 that you can save or invest while under the present system you only have $75 after federal income taxes that you can save or invest and under the present system you also have to pay federal income taxes on any profit from your investment with the exception of tax free bonds.

You forgot one very huge issue...

The face value of your investment is minus 23% or whatever the sales tax rate is at the time

AND, You forgot one other HUGE issue...

Tax free bonds would be non-existent under the Fairtax.

[kellynla]

“Tax free bonds would be non-existent under the Fairtax.”

excuse me but there are many states that have state income taxes..

“The face value of your investment is minus 23% or whatever the sales tax rate is at the time?”

I don't know what you are thinking of but I was thinking of stocks, bonds, securities and there is no sales tax on their purchase, thank you.

[kellynla]

“It sounds like you have some kind of connection with the Marines. Would you mind sharing it with with the rest of us?”

“connection?”

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...I had a “connection” alright...
I walked Point for the 5th Marines in the Arizona in 69 & 70.

Is that “connection” enough for ya...LOL

[lewislynn]

Tax free bonds would be non-existent under the Fairtax.”

excuse me but there are many states that have state income taxes..

No, excuse me. I thought the subject of this thread was the Fairtax...which is a federal, not state, tax plan

“The face value of your investment is minus 23% or whatever the sales tax rate is at the time?”

I don't know what you are thinking of but I was thinking of stocks, bonds, securities and there is no sales tax on their purchase, thank you.

Excuse me once again. I made the assumption you knew the difference between face value and a sales tax...My mistake.

BTW, in addition to the loss of the face value there would be a tax on any fees for the purchase or sale of those stocks, bonds, securities and or the management fees thereof...

IOW, there's no free lunch under the Fairtax.

[kellynla]

well if you live in a state that has state taxes then you can still avoid paying those taxes by purchasing tax free bonds WHICH WILL STILL BE IN EXISTENCE IF FAIR TAX IS PASSED...

gezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...maybe I’ll draw you a picture. LMAO

[lewislynn]

kellynla:

"and under the present system you also have to pay federal income taxes" on any profit from your investment with the exception of tax free bonds.<

well if you live in a state that has state taxes then you can still avoid paying those taxes by purchasing tax free bonds WHICH WILL STILL BE IN EXISTENCE IF FAIR TAX IS PASSED...

WOW! You really got me on that one on a thread about A FEDERAL TAX PLAN...What a genius you are.

[Hostage]

Source? Sure.

Inclusive rates from:

Jorgenson 23%, Kotlikoff 22%.

Simply convert them to exclusive rates in the same manner that the poster did that I originally responded to.

Funny how it feels when the same tactics are used against you, isn;t it?

[Hostage]

We know you don’t believe that taxes are passed on through the supply chain and that these passed-on taxes accumulate to more than 20% of the final retail price, the so-called embedded taxes.

But business owners know reality and they know they must put the federal tax burden into their pricing, period.

To get the percentages, see post #37.

[Hostage]

Gibberish is something I find difficult to respond to.

But don’t despair!!!!! HELP is on the way!!!!

http://www.andrewdavidson.com/gibberish/?companyname=lentulusgracchus

And when you’re done, read post #37 for any future response on my part.

[lucysmom]

They, ‘the wealthy’, those evil people with all the money, may indeed buy their yachts and airplanes in Canada, Mexico, but they, the evil ones, will have to keep those planes and yachts in Canada and Mexico, else pay the customs tax.

No, they sail their yachts and fly their planes where they wish in the US without paying the sales tax.

And if these evil capitalists try and circumvent the tax via claiming personal purchases as business expenses, then they will have to have good criminal lawyers to keep them out of prison for tax evasion.

Not at all - just a little imagination should do the trick.

FairTaxers are of two minds when it comes to the wealthy - they are evil when they use money and influence to buy tax favors, and scream class warfare when some one notes that the FairTax is the ultimate tax favor devised by the wealthy to leave the source of their wealth untouched by taxes and gaping loopholes allowing consumption to escape the tax.

The dear darling poor and middle class who would be buried in rent taxes will of course not see lower rents caused by elimination of federal taxes on the landlords, now would they?

Your sarcasm betrays the disdain you have for the middle class - the economic niche most of us occupy.

Currently, with foreclosures up significantly where I live, competition for rentals has driven up rents even though property values have fallen and taxes haven't changed. Its the market.

[Toddsterpatriot]

Inclusive rates from:

Jorgenson 23%, Kotlikoff 22%.

So my paycheck will be reduced by the income and Social Security taxes I pay? Thanks for the info.

[Bryan24]

The FairTax would be a disaster of biblical proportions.

First off, you won’t get the 16th Amendment repealed. THere are TOO many liberals in this country that want the government to retain the power to tax people.

If you can’t get the 16th Amendement repealed, the FairTax is dead in the water, IMO. But, if by some miracle is IS passed, then you will be faced with a Federal Income Tax, Social Security Taxes, Federal Sales Tax, State Sales Taxes, Local Sales Taxes, Etc....

What I want you to do, since you are the guy bearing the FairTax Banner on Free Republic, is to explain how you will get the 16th Amendment Repealed. There will have to be a constitutional amendment passed to remove the power that congress has to impose income taxes. How are you gonna get the 16th repealed?

[lucysmom]

Think of it like this: You make $100 and you pay $25 in taxes. So you have $75 in purchasing power and, out of that, you consume and pay the existing local consumption tax.

You make $100 and pay $25 in federal taxes through withholding and FICA with $75 left over to spend.

Under the FairTax you make $100 but you only have $75 in purchasing power because you'll have to pay a Federal consumption tax on what you spend.

Because the FairTax bill does not define 100% of your paycheck - post FairTax, it could well be that your take home pay remains the same, but you will have your taxes yet to pay. So, your $75 purchasing power becomes $52 purchasing power.

[lucysmom]

I am not willing to overhaul the tax code based on the assumption of private companies discounting their product almost 30%.

Because the FairTax only exists on paper, all its supporters have are assumptions and economic studies purchased by AFFT.

Why anyone would support a tax scheme that can't even define what 100% of your paycheck means, is beyond me.

[lucysmom]

IOW, there's no free lunch under the Fairtax.

Even the FairTaxers admit that and then go on to claim illegals and drug dealers will be buying lunch.

[Man50D]

First off, you won’t get the 16th Amendment repealed. THere are TOO many liberals in this country that want the government to retain the power to tax people.

Wow! It's amazing you come to that conclusion without even trying. If anything you should take a page from the socialist playbook by being persistent despite the difficulty. The Americans For Fair Taxation has been employing that strategy since The Fair Tax was first intorduced to Congress. The Fair Tax began with no cosponsors and now has 76. The number grows with each session of Congress. The growing number of cosponsors is a direct result of a growing grassroots effort as politicians are driven by the pressure they feel from their constituents.

How are you gonna get the 16th repealed?

Your comments and question are a self contradiction. If your convinced the 16th Amendment won't be repealed then why do you bother asking how it will be repealed?

You obviously don't know because you haven't taken the time to do any research or couldn't care less the process to repeal the 16 Amendment has already started. House Joint Resolution 16 introduced to Congress will specifically repeal the 16th Amendment. Furthermore, the sponsors of the FairTax are totally dedicated to the permanent repeal of the income tax. No current supporter of the FairTax would support the FairTax unless the entire income tax is repealed. Regardless of those facts , the 16th Amendment doesn't require an income tax it only allows for one. Once The Fair Tax is passed, no one in their right minds will want to return to a system that requires filling out tax forms.

If you can’t get the 16th Amendement repealed, the FairTax is dead in the water, IMO. But, if by some miracle is IS passed, then you will be faced with a Federal Income Tax, Social Security Taxes, Federal Sales Tax, State Sales Taxes, Local Sales Taxes, Etc....

Huh? When the Fair Tax is passed there will be no Federal income tax because The Fair Tax abolishes all Federal income taxes! Yes there will be a Federal sales tax because The Fair Tax is a federal sales tax. Social Security taxes will be incorporated into The Fair Tax so that the funds for Social Security will be collected from the Fair Tax. Including state taxes in your statement is irrelevant as no federal tax can address taxes created on the state level. That is a separate issue.

All this information can be found either in the The Fair Tax Act Of 2007 or the Americans For Fair Taxation website.

[groanup]

Why anyone would support a tax scheme that can't even define what 100% of your paycheck means, is beyond me.

Lucy's mom is a rabid anti FairTaxer who is surely a paid shill for some organization that makes money off of the income tax. Those organizations are high in number: from mutual fund companies (IRA's 401(k)'s) to life insurance and annuity companies.

LM's line about losing 100% of your paycheck is one of her favorite flogging topics because none of us can point to the part of HR 25 that specifically states that workers will keep all of their paychecks.

The reason this is so popular with LM is because it is impossible to prove. She thinks she has something here but she doesn't.

The legislation would have to specifically void the millions of contracts between employer and employee. The legislation does not void existing contracts.

LM knows that. She is not being truthful with this line of BS.

LM is grasping at straws. If I were paying her to post this nonsense I would cease doing it.

[groanup]

Oh, and she will probably quote the FairTax book by Boortz and Linder. She won’t quote the legilation because she can’t.

[Hostage]

I never said that. But then you are known to have trouble with telling the truth.

And your poster boy robfromga has been discredited many times over here. By linking your post to him you put yourself into a class that has no credibility.

Jorgenson never ‘exploded’ anything. What exploded was robfromga’s sense of reality.

The fact is you have numerous macro and micro estimates by reputable economists. Don’t like Jorgenson? Want to discredit Jorgenson? How about Kotlikoff?

Fact is your gang can’t shoot straight with your lame ‘exclusive’ rate of 29.9%. When I convert the inclusive embedded tax rates to exclusive rates, you try and change the subject to some smear of Jorgenson. But then that’s your schtick, when you can’t face the facts, change the subject and distract, disrupt and waste bandwidth.

That’s you.

[Toddsterpatriot]

I never said that.

You told me what the numbers were. The numbers are based on take home pay.

And your poster boy robfromga has been discredited many times over here.

Jorgenson didn't say what Rob claimed?

By linking your post to him you put yourself into a class that has no credibility.

You talking about credibility? That's funny!

Don’t like Jorgenson? Want to discredit Jorgenson?

Who said that? You have proof his letter to Rob was wrong?

When I convert the inclusive embedded tax rates to exclusive rates, you try and change the subject to some smear of Jorgenson.

Ummmmm, I agree with Jorgenson. You can't get to 23% unless you include paycheck withholding. Unless you want to prove that embedded taxes are 23%, without including employee paid income and Social Security taxes. LOL!

But then that’s your schtick, when you can’t face the facts,

Still waiting for you to provide a fact.