Posted on 05/13/2008 7:54:58 AM PDT by SmithL
SAN FRANCISCO -- Public schools don't violate students' freedom of expression by requiring them to wear uniforms, a federal appeals court in San Francisco ruled Monday.
In a 2-1 decision, the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals upheld a Nevada school district's clothing rules against challenges from students, including a high school junior who was suspended five times for a total of 25 days for wearing a T-shirt with religious slogans.
The Clark County School District's policies were not intended to squelch free speech, but instead were aimed at "creating an educational environment free from the distractions, dangers and disagreements that result when student clothing choices are left unrestricted," Judge Michael Hawkins said in the majority opinion.
Dissenting Judge Sidney Thomas said the ruling was at odds with the U.S. Supreme Court's landmark 1969 decision that upheld a student's right to wear a black armband in protest of the Vietnam War as long as it did not disrupt the classroom. Under Monday's ruling, Thomas said, a school could prohibit such protests, or any other attire that expressed an opinion, by requiring students to wear uniforms.
The students' lawyer, Allen Lichtenstein of the American Civil Liberties Union of Nevada, said he will ask the full appeals court to set the ruling aside and order a rehearing before a larger panel. He said the ruling could be extended beyond schools and might allow a city to ban political expression in some public areas.
As a constitutional interpretation, the ruling is binding on federal courts in nine states, including California. But parents in California still have the right under state law to exempt their children from a school's requirement to wear uniforms.
No such opt-out right exists in Nevada, where state law requires schools merely to consult with parents before requiring uniforms....
(Excerpt) Read more at sfgate.com ...
Now all we need are school boards with the courage to institute a dress code and the moxie to stick to it.
I remember when I was in 1st grade, back in 1972, my teacher told us how fortunate we were to live in America.
Her key point was all the wonderful freedoms we had as citizens of this country. As an example she showed us a school room from communist China and told us these kids had no choice in what they wore to school, the government told them what to wear.
She then told us to look around the room and see that we decided what to wear to school, and that the government did not tell us what to wear. We had the freedom to choose our clothes.
How the times have changed.
God bless Miss Wilks where ever she may be.
I never did like the idea of school uniforms but have no problem with a dress code. “Thou shalt not” gives us freedom, “Thou shalt” gives us regimentation.
Uh... I must have missed that one in the Constitution.
I’m actually shocked that his comes from a leftist court? I guess it’s freedom of speach as long as you are assimilated.
As a parent with three kids in school...uniforms ROCK..
There isnt a code here on the STYLE of clothes...the code is on COLOR of clothes..
This isnt the old days anymore....to much gang crap.
“a high school junior who was suspended five times for a total of 25 days for wearing a T-shirt with religious slogans.”
Does that bother you?
Let the parents of a school district vote for or against school uniforms. One compromise could be to have all the students wear a uniform top (same color/monogram) and wear whatever is appropriate from the waist down. Since parents pay the lions share of taxes they should decide, period!
Oh please, uniforms are great. At least there’s no question as to what’s acceptable and what’s not. Besides, think how much time kids save not having to figure out what they will be wearing to school.
I grew up in a country where kids wear uniforms to school, i don’t know of any kid who was harmed because he had to wear a uniform, in fact, a uniform dress code is probably welcomed by those who are especially poor.
Or they could just let the citizens of the district vote for school board representatives to decide for them, the way we make most decisions in this country.
How could they hold a vote for only the “parents” in a district anyway?
“I grew up in a country where kids wear uniforms to school,”
Did you see post #3?
I grew up in America. We were free to choose what we wore. That was the old days.
Less freedom now. We’re all more secure now though so it’s all good.
That freedom stuff, whew, it’s scary.
On any given day I see the following at the school I teach at (we’ll start with body adornments):
lip rings
brow rings
multiple ear piercings
tongue studs
navel piercings
tattoos (arms, legs, neck, small of back)
Now for the clothing:
pant-legs rolled up
pants worn around bottom of butt
chain belts
bandanas (gang flags)
baseball caps (in gang colors)
plunging neck-lines (exposing cleavage)
tee shirts with a variety of slogans (some in bad taste)
slippers
pajamas
Think of the free speech that is being protected here! Personally, I think the free speech issue being wedded to ideas about dress code is a specious argument at best. I know, I know clothing can be a form of expression, but we have arrived at the low-culture aspect of that argument, and we seem only interested in discussing/protecting the basest forms of expressions. Many of my students care ONLY about these accoutrements and care next to nothing about the larger issues involving free and protected speech.
Does the article give details on what kind of “religious slogans” were on these t-shirts? Does the article state whether the slogans were the problem or if it was because the t-shirt violated the school’s uniform policy? I’d need to have a lot more informtion before being able to make an informed comment on that particular case.
With respect to whether it bothers me for students in a public school being made to wear a standard mode of dress, not I’m not bothered by it. I work in public education (secondary level at the present moment) and I don’t like what I see in what these students are allowed to wear today.
“Does the article give details on what kind of “religious slogans”
Should the government get to decide which religious slogans are ok?
Should we need permission from the government to practice faith? To evangelize?
I know, it’s really inconvenient for the government schools if we let kids wear what they want.
Isn’t a free citizenry always inconvenient for government?
I agree the limits on freedom that uniforms impose is very petty.
I also think the government should require you to buy an American made car. Yes, it is a small restriction on your freedom, but let’s face it, it’s pretty minor. And the benefits to our Country could be great.
And why do you need a 2500+ sq ft house? Our grandparents raised a bunch of kids in a much smaller house. We could lower our energy usage and really help our Country. Should we limit the size of houses? Come on, does that impose on your freedom? It’s such a small sacrifice.
Are the freedoms and liberties of children restricted in other areas of their lives? Yes!!!! Is there blanket application of constitutional “freedoms” to any citizen? No!! With freedom and liberties comes great responsibility, a fact that many don’t seem to be able to grasp in this country.
I guess the point I was trying to make was not one about whether or not uniforms ought to be required, but rather what happens when liberty devolves into license. Part of a proper appreciation for the sacredness (if you want to call it that) of free speech is to understand the responsibility which must be used whenever exercising it. Minors (in my view) are in need of this lesson (some adults too, no doubt). By allowing students to dress however they want you are giving them the freedom without first giving them the essential understanding of why/how what they do (in this case, what they wear) matters. If you want to call it civics, then call it civics. Uniforms or, better, dress codes, may tweak the noses of those pre-disposed to libertarianism, however I don’t believe these do a disservice to the idea of free speech. It is my belief a dress code (properly enforced—see below) will serve to underscore the high regard we all ought to have for freedom of expression by first developing within young people an appreciation for its responsible practice.
By the way, each and every one of the examples of what I saw in my school (in my previous post) are violations of our school’s dress code—and these violations are daily, rampant and, generally ignored. Our society has drifted further and further from its first principles by reason of our unwillingness/inability to hand down who and what we are. This is what we are supposed to be doing with young people. We are supposed to train them so that they can go forth into society and, not only express themselves, but get along, as well. We have become so hung up on our own personal choices, preferences, rights, etc. that we have abandoned much of what used to knit our national fabric together and, as a result, the garment is quite torn.
“Is there blanket application of constitutional “freedoms” to any citizen? No!!”
This is where you and I disagree. I agree with the text of the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights, not with how we have bastardized it to mean whatever is convenient to us in a particular moment in time.
And so apparently religious slogans can be vetted by the government as to their suitability for children. Parents no longer have that right.
Bill of Rights
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF; OR ABRIDGING THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Freedom is really messy and it is no surprise that we work so hard to take it away.
My complaint is not with dress codes. My problem is with the government taking away the rights of the parents to decide what is acceptable. And with the government deciding what religious slogans are acceptable.
This is a parental rights and religious rights issue to me.
I don’t believe my 16 year old son has any civil rights.
But I do. If I want him to wear a “Jesus Saves” tee shirt to school, that is my right.
Garde la Foi, mes amis! Nous nous sommes les sauveurs de la République! Maintenant et Toujours!
(Keep the Faith, my friends! We are the saviors of the Republic! Now and Forever!)
LonePalm, le Républicain du verre cassé (The Broken Glass Republican)
What's wrong with school uniforms?
Seriously though. There were many Freepers who were all for school uniforms when kids were killing each other over foot ware and the like. I'm still for it.
The arrogance running through our schools would be curtailed and the oneupmanship would be as well.
You are right, we do disagree. Having a dress code at a public school does not take away the rights of any child to express their religious belief. There are many ways in which this right may be expressed, and requiring children to dress in a certain style of clothing does not impinge upon their rights. However, allowing anyone to dress any way they wish to at school can, and does, and has resulted in a variety of problems at public schools, including that of providing a safe school environment (many students have and do hide weapons in their very baggy clothing). Are you against the ability of the school to create a safe school environment?
Children’s “rights” are not absolute, which you are well aware of. Children are not permitted drivers licenses until age 16 in most states. They are not allowed to vote until age 18. Most states have a prohibition against use of alcohol until age 21. If a school cannot place any limits on what children wear to school, then chaos can be and has been a result. I’m amazed at the dichotomy with respect to public schools. Some people make far reaching blanket statements which paint all public schools as places of horrific evil where children are permitted to do anything they want and absolutely no learning takes place. Others claim that schools are too controlling and do not allow students the right to freely express themselves. Reality is somewhere in the middle based upon my 12 years of experience working in public schools.
You are right with your final point. “Freedom” is messy. Far too many people in this country have the belief that “freedom” means absolute freedom with no boundaries whatsoever. Living in a “free” society requires self-sacrifice, self-control, and having respect for others. These qualities are sadly lacking in this country today.
“The constitution maybe flawed but its a whole lot better than what we have now”.
Actually, no it is not your "right" to have your child wear any type of clothing in a public school you so desire. But, you certainly have the right to complain about the school's decisions. Enjoy.
Very well said.
Less freedom now. We’re all more secure now though so it’s all good.
That freedom stuff, whew, it’s scary.
I'm thinking you might want to spend some time studying early history of the United States. In particular take a look at the types of classroom dress codes and rules that were strictly enforeced not all that long ago (from the 1800's up to the 1950's and into the 1960's). You might see that the America you have grown up in is quite different from the one my parents and their parents grew up in.
Well said.
I don’t see anything wrong with school uniforms. I hated them when I had to wear them but it was more a teenage girl thing. My two teens are in public high school (and the school has a dress code which is mostly enforced)after K-8 in Catholic school with uniforms. They hated wearing a uniform but admitted that it was easier not having to figure out what to wear every day. My two youngest complain about their uniform now, lol.
Our public high school’s dress code isn’t really restictive (I only know what it is for the girls): no flip flops, which is odd to me because I live in them in the warm weather, no spaghetti strap tank tops, shorts/skirts/dresses to fingertips, no tube tops, no belly shirts, no item with curse words or drug references, etc. I’ve never been called by the office to bring a change of clothes but know one parent who was because her daughter wore a spaghetti strap tank top.
I only sub teach now and don’t see many dress code violations in this area.
I understand parents who want to decide what’s appropriate dress (for me, I’d allow flip flops) but far too many really don’t care what their kids wear.
Anyway, your posts were excellent.
“no it is not your “right” to have your child wear any type of clothing in a public school you so desire”
I believe you are correct.
You see, it is my belief that the sooner the people realize that the Constitution was long ago shredded the better off we’ll be.
The Bill of Rights couldn’t be more clear:
” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech...”
It is ignored and most people are happy about it.
W/E
Thank you for your kind words. I think it is important for some parents to wake up and realize that 1) no child in public school has the absolute right of anything, and 2) their “angel” child may not be wearing what the left the house in when they arrive at school.
Again, I agree. My two teens are pretty basic when it comes to clothes, in style but not over the top. My two younger ones, 10 and 12, especially the 10 yr old, will be more of a struggle/battle. I can see it already, lol.
I think location has something to do with some of these issues. I know when I taught in philly it was a completely different experience than when I taught in the suburbs but the issue of clothing was the same. Also, the students, then and now, don’t like being told what to wear. I recall how our Disciplinarian would make us kneel and if our uniform didn’t reach the floor, demerits (and they added up quickly). We used to call her Sister Control Freak. And that was 25 yrs ago.
I don’t think kids have the absolute right of anything in public, private, or Catholic schools (especially Catholic schools,). No idea where you teach but I do think location plays a part as well as the home. If kids are raised without any rules it carries over into the schools and everywhere else. IMO, we’re regressing and too many kids are being raised without any accountability and responsibility. It’s no wonder some can’t behave as adults when they enter college/turn 18.
I agree with you on this. I'm a school psychologist, so I work with students individually as opposed to in the classroom. I work in the Sacramento CA area, and my schools fall into the lower SES category. I see much that disturbs me about how children are being raised without self-respect or respect for others. At the three schools I work at we have a great many students who do possess those qualities, but way too many who do not.
I’m not familiar with the Sacramento, CA area - is it similar to a city, say like Philly, or sections of L.A.? Trying to get an image of the area.
Self-respect is so important and if one has it, it carries over to respecting others. Respect, along with kindness, goes a long away, imo.
And this isn’t just happening in the cities, I see it, to a lesser degree in my area.
Hmmmm. I don’t know enough about Philly to give an accurate comparison. The Sac Metro area may have similarities to areas of LA, but it’s a whole lot more conservative overall as compared to Southern CA. The socio-economics of the Metro area ranges from very afluent to below the poverty line depending upon the area. I’d guess that Sac Metro has more in common with the SF bay area than with the LA area, but again much more conservative.
Thanks. Got the general idea of the area.
Used to use my pocket money to have my tie cleaned more than the recommended once-a-term.
And you are correct - a uniform is a great leveler. There were many rich kids at my school (I was not one of them) but the uniform made us all appear equal.
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